sharpening renders

Started by tl33, March 19, 2007, 06:23:44 PM

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tl33

ive noticed that with most my renders, the images out of tg2 look a bit dull( or even a bit blurry) until i use the sharpen filter in post (photoshop). can u guys recommend any setting inside tg2 to avoid this or just some general tips to clean up/sharpen things a bit?

most of my renders are set with detail on .7 or.8 and GI on 4. im on the free version so my AA is only at 3, could this be one of the reasons?

thx

bigben

It depends on how large the image you're rendering is. Reducing the AA will make it look sharper. Try a render with AA at 1 and 2 and decide which you prefer. 1 is a little pixellated, but then so are the edge effects from oversharpening so it may suit some people.

old_blaggard

You can also try playing around with the soft clip effect under Render Node -> Effects.  I don't know exactly what that does but it sounds like it could be worth playing around with.
http://www.terragen.org - A great Terragen resource with models, contests, galleries, and forums.

Oshyan

Soft Clip Effect only adjusts color. It is similar to the "Film" effects from TG 0.9. Essentially it determines how the higher dynamic range of the rendered image color space will be mapped to the normal 24 bit display color system, so it's a form of "tone mapping": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_mapping It should not affect image sharpness.

- Oshyan

DeathTwister

Wow good questains guys,

I have been finding the same problem and was wondering if it was because we are using the free version maybe?  But I as well would like to get a crisper render of the scenes I am creating if I could.  It still seems to be doing the same thing in the new version just released as well.
Maybe Oshyan or a good person could shoot us to a link/Tut? or somewhere we could get some of that information on???? if there is any yet, remember we are on the bleeding edge here hahahahaha lolol. Kinda we all learning as well go together down the tgd2 adventure.

DT
Maylock Aromy DeathTwister Stansbury
ATOMIX Productions

old_blaggard

Quote from: Oshyan on March 19, 2007, 07:03:13 PM
Soft Clip Effect only adjusts color. It is similar to the "Film" effects from TG 0.9. Essentially it determines how the higher dynamic range of the rendered image color space will be mapped to the normal 24 bit display color system, so it's a form of "tone mapping": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_mapping It should not affect image sharpness.

- Oshyan

Interesting.  Thanks, Oshyan.
http://www.terragen.org - A great Terragen resource with models, contests, galleries, and forums.

Oshyan

DT, from looking at your renders I would very much disagree that they are soft or would need to be "crisper". But this is a very subjective thing, of course. I see a great many Terragen gallery images that I feel are completely ruined by over-sharpening but others love them.

You will also find that many consumer-level digital cameras have high default sharpening for their "out of camera" images. This is to appeal to the average consumer taste in images, I suppose. Interestingly higher-end dSLR cameras that cost $1000's often have "softer" images, despite higher resolution, lower noise, and better lenses, but this is because most people using this level of camera are likely to want to post process their images in a dedicated image editor that provides significantly more power than in-camera processing. Thus they would want a minimally processed image out of the camera so they have the most of the "real world" data to work with.

In any case in regards to Terragen images in general the same sort of approach will be taken. Terragen tries to produce "neutral" images that are pleasing and take post processing well if necessary.

Remember that sharpening is generally a destructive process in terms of baseline image information. It produces a desirable look for some people, but certainly not everyone. You might then say we should provide a sharpening option in TG itself, but of course simple and free external image editors such as XnView provide much more powerful, flexible and non-destructive ways of doing this and are a better option than a simplistic and limited built-in sharpen option.

Ultimately you may find that actually reducing antialiasing or other quality options will give you results that are closer to what you want, but this just highlights the reality that such sharpness actually equals *lower* "quality" in some sense.

- Oshyan

gradient

A difficult question....I think one area not mentioned here is the final output destination.
They all require different degrees of sharpening.
An image destined for print may require more than one destined for web use.

I have also noticed a dramatic difference between crt monitors and lcd...the images that I had previously rendered and sharpened, looked perfect on my crt....now when I view those same images on my lcd monitor, they look over sharpened to me.

Oshyan

Excellent point Gradient. I find LCD's overall to have a poor, overly-harsh display of imagery, particularly on the web. You see gradients or noise where you didn't think any existed previously. Is this because the CRT was not "good enough" to show these issues before, or is it more like an issue with LCD display technology? I think the latter. I will hold on to my CRT's as long as possible and hope that something better than LCD comes along! ;D

In any case generally speaking some kind of middleground is probably best. But the differences between display and print and other uses is one more reason why sharpening should never be applied by default. Imagine if you want to use an image for print as well as web - you may want to apply more sharpening to one version than the other. Who would want to re-render just to reduce sharpening? Better to render a more "neutral" image to begin with and post-process.

- Oshyan

helentr

IMHO Terragen images are quite sharp. Sharpening them in an image editor reduces accuracy: dark lines become jagged and in the border between light and dark colors an artificial lighter line is introduced. So, if you are going to sharpen a rendered image anyway, there is no point in using AA - you can keep that at 1 and save yourself render time and memory usage.

AA, in calculating a larger image and resampling it down, adds soft transitions between light and dark areas, so that more detail can be seen, straight lines are straight and round ones round - this can be obvious if you render very thin blades of grass, or maybe power lines against the sky, for example.

To make an image "crisper" and more like an illustration than a photograph (this seems to be popular at this time) you could try increasing the contrast, or decreasing the haze density, or decreasing the gamma  and simultaneously increasing the sun strength. Increasing the GI on surfaces just washes out the shadows, which would be the opposite of what you want. Disabling the clip effect washes out the bright areas.

I post some examples below - from the file name it is obvious what changes were made. For the "sharp" image, I used an extreme sharpening.

Helen

Allegro


Will

Great refrences helen :) Oh and a semi-related topic, if you keep the detial low and then sharpen an image a lot you can get an intresting syilized effect. Kind looks like Darwinia for those who have played it.

Regards,

Will

PS. Great avitar Allegro  ;)
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

Arandil

Late coming perhaps, but I'll my voice to the thanks, this is dern handy!  Ideal Wiki material I'd say.