Hobbit at 48FPS

Started by rcallicotte, April 14, 2011, 10:25:03 AM

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Bjur

Quote from: Tangled-Universe on December 20, 2012, 02:54:50 PM

Quote
Just for your info: The German dubbing actor of Gandalf died a short while ago. His voice was a rly great one and gave Gandalf lots of emotion and believable soul.
We Germans have to face the old Gandalf now with a different voice, so i´m curious till anxious about the outcome..  :(

Well, without meaning to sound like a dick, this seems to be a perfect opportunity for Germany to stop dubbing movies ;)
Use subtitles and enjoy the original sound of the voices :)
Dubbed voices miss the original depth created by the original location of shooting and audio mastering and although I admit that the voice actors aren't as crap as over a decade ago (they're actually quite good at transferring the characters emotion), it still isn't what it's supposed to be.

Hehe, you are right - a bit.
But often, especially Hollywood-Blockbuster movies and their famous but often soulless speaking original actors, can get great benefit of being dubbed by high class dubbing actors nowadys.  ;)

To see a entertaining commercial movie in your native speech is often more "stressless", just for the joy - with your brain at low energy consumption. ^

Even lots of our native German actors should be dubbed with some pro dubbing artists! Unfortunately, the good voices often have no "cinematic faces" and the "beauties" and famous ones, often sound boring, in Hollywood too. God bless, not everytime..
~ The annoying popularity of Vue brought me here.. ~

Oshyan

#61
Are there really 6 versions? Perhaps in theory but not in practice? I have only seen 4 playing locally in San Francisco and we're a fairly significant market: 2D, 3D, HFR 3D, IMAX 3D. I would really like to be able to see an HFR 2D version (to compare with the regular 2D version without the distraction of 3D further muddying the issue) but I'm not sure it exists, or at least is playing anywhere.

I did see the movie in 24fps 2D a few nights ago. I wanted my first experience with it to be untainted by the possible affects of 48fps/HFR, and I also normally hate 3D so 2D it was. I hope to see it in HFR 3D next, for comparison. As to the movie, I felt it was enjoyable overall, yes the first part is a bit "slow" but I really didn't mind, and I felt the 2nd half actually went fast enough to make up for it, such that by the end, I was actually surprised when it finished, expecting more (after all, it is 2h45m long). In comparison to the LotR movies I felt it went quickly overall, which is perhaps a good thing. The acting is decent, though I felt like the portrayal of Bilbo was a bit *too* matter-of-fact and "light" at times. Surprisingly, the make-up and prosthetics were a bit lacking in parts. The dwarfs were particularly over-the-top I felt (unnecessarily so), and varied so much in appearance as to seem like different species. But as I say, enjoyable overall, and some of my favorite moments (e.g. the rescue by giant eagles) were beautifully realized.

- Oshyan

otakar

Watched it last night. Version was HFR Real3D XD. Very impressed. Let me try to speak to each aspect individually.

1. 3D - it was something to get used to (seeing Middle Earth in 3D). I thought it was definitely progress, though there were a few scenes where the background looked too 2D in sharp contrast to the foreground. 3D makes you feel more inside the movie. I had no disorientation or dizziness issues. 3D was most beneficial in those fast action scenes with a big vertical component. I saw a small preview later that day in 2D at there was no comparison. It's perfectly fine in 2D, but you'll gain something going 3D.

2. HFR - I'd say everything was smooth and clear. This helps with the above (feeling as part of the movie) but also makes it harder to create a seamless experience. I thought I was able to identify fake rocks fairly easily and some textures as well, especially when a piece of real landscape was in the picture to compare.

3. The contents - I was terribly surprised when it was over. Though I could tell it was ending, I thought to myself that no way has so much time passed. To those doubters who say there can never be enough material for three movies I say you will be proven wrong. Now, if you prefer constant action and don't care who the characters are and where they come from, then you may be looking at your watch especially in the beginning. If you care about the story you will be hungry for more. I loved how Peter Jackson tied this movie to the beginning of the LOTR trilogy and how you immediately step into the familiar environment of Middle Earth and meet the characters we've embraced in the first 3 episodes. The scenery is as breathtaking as ever and the new crew is quite entertaining and endearing. This will be a long year to wait for the continuation of the story.

Finally, I wish I was able to shield myself from the countless blogs and previews, because quite a few moments were no surprise (no I did not read the book), as so much material has been revealed over time. I just couldn't help myself.

Go see it if only for the imagery :)

Bjur

Seen the HRF 3D version just some hours ago and i went/got into the "look" inbehalf minutes and was some kind pleased.

I have red the Lord of the Rings trillogy and The Simarillion 17-20 years ago, but not The Hobbit.
Beside the plot was known to me, i knew very little about Tolkiens art of storytelling or the actions/strings in this book.
I loved LOTR but i dont wanted to read more about cute Hobbits after LOTR these days, especially i knew the book itself was written by Tolkien for his grandchilds, or better for kids in all.

So my opinions are more influenced by the movie and its storytelling itself, less by real book contents.

+ Good entertainment. Good use of FX technics and great integration/interaction of real footage and CGI, wonderful sets as expected.
Used HRF didnt looked like a "Daily HDTV Soap" as lots of ppl in the internets moan about. Fast actions you can "eye-catch" better with less motion blur.
If HFR will be a kind of cinematic future, the more the industrie will have to go to shoot stuff in real environments now, otherwise it will!! looking fake like in The Hobbit.
I forsee a new golden age for talented Set-Designers/Builders for studio shots.

- Storytelling and it´s rythmn. Poor till funny (involuntary) introductions of some of the main characters, even known ones from LOTR.
Peter Jackson was too lazy, to build up his new trillogy as a standalone series. Even he doesnt wanted to setup his new trillogy as standalone and as part oft LOTR, he failed hard to build good bridges for all kind of audiences i say.

The Hobbit feels just like a simple "Spin-off" for me..

** Spoiler Alert and particular critics**

- Jackson failed hard, to introduce nearly everyone and race specifics in a proper way.
Some Dwarfs are looking way too much human like, just to catch the "i will be with you" feelings of the audience
- The 1st movie was way too long for its content and the art of storytelling
- A movie for "Adults" and for "Kids"? George Lucas tried to catch all and failed hard in his newer STAR WARS episodes
- Jackson repeated some of Georges failures and tried a split to charm everyone out there and failed also in my opinion, just for the money..
- 3 parts of The Hobbit? Sry, you cant tell a story straight, or you just want to make some money!

Even Conan with Arnold Schwarzenegger had more dense like The Hobbit in my opinion.

- What Albino super Orc? Never felt someone was rly in danger..
- Introducing Elves in a terrible way again, omg!
- Galadriel: I expectected some kind of Striptease/Tabledance, when i have seen her the 1st time, spot on! Way to introcuce a important and well known character..
- Saruman: As the most powerful wizard this time, he was introduced as a clueless retard, without a need to question something his anti blabla.. just ignore him is the premisse?
- White Super Orc with pals are chasing our fellowship.. Bilbos Blade lights up facing degenerated Orcs, like Goblins, but not when real Orcs are facing them like in LOTR!?
- Giant mountain Gods smashing other giant mountain Gods just for the fun and eye-catch!?!? Oh my .. and why!? -.-
- Trolls can speak now, ok. Maybe its up on the book!? I dont know. But no need for useless speaking CGI Trolls, since CGI Trolls can transport information via mimic and actions nowadays like in LOTR.. 10 years before!

- So on and on...

Conclusion: VFX like, the movie is very good, rest is just commercial bullshit.
~ The annoying popularity of Vue brought me here.. ~

ajcgi

I saw this in 2d Saturday morning after a coffee. Was totally alert as I have about 3 coffees per year, but it was 10am and I was a bit hungover ;) It totally surprised me when it finished. I was convinced only an hour had passed!

I agree with Oshyan that the prostethics were lacking and that kinda ties in with my main crit that Bjur touches on... the pale orc. Why is he CG? Why is he about as terrifying an electric kettle? The model looks under-designed and unfinished. I saw this in a digital 4k cinema. It is possibly the sharpest cinema experience I've had but good god, the pale orc looked low res in some shots, especially his scars which look like an unfinished zbrush affair. The skin between the scarring was so smooth and translucent it could be in a Nivea commercial, the scars themselves having jagged edges similar to a low res proxy in zbrush. The orc's wolf creatures (I forget their names) looked a little underwhelming at times too, but the animation of the creatures and riders was impressive and overall better than in LOTR imo. They really did stick out as CG though.

With stereoscopic 48fps to deal with and thereby 4 times as many frames as were dealt with in LOTR, I expected the same high quality prosthetics as previously used for most of the characters. It would have been less effort for the cg and compositing guys for starters.

That's my only Hobbit-specific crit really. Otherwise it was the usual 'spot the 3d theme park ride' sequences that kinda stuck out unnecessarily. The brown wizard's chase sequence saw him moving around very unrealistically and with motion blur that appeared overcranked. I've seen similar issues in other 3d movies, whether viewing it in 3d or not. On this occasion, similar to Oshyan, I wanted to see The Hobbit in 2D first.

Overall I really really enjoyed the film. I read the book a few times as a kid.

Oshyan

Indeed, have we always had these "theme park ride" sequences? They're really irritating and I hope they go away soon. We can have spectacle and immersion without jumping the shark like that, I'm certain of it.

- Oshyan

ajcgi

The worst one I've seen so far is in Tintin. It's an excellent film , but the 3d in that is stunning enough without the chase sequence that's been shoehorned in. The rest of the film is fantasy yet somehow believable. It totally killed the belief once Tintin was riding a zip wire using a broken motorbike handlebar, chasing a tank that somehow moved a hotel to a convenient beach front location. That was beyond fantasy. It was something I'd expect in a zanier film like a Wallace & Gromit number :-\

Oshyan

#67
Yes, I'm really not understanding the obsession with "rollercoaster" sequences. Ugh.

So I saw The Hobbit again just now, this time in HFR 3D. I really wanted to compare, though it's been a month since I first saw it, so not quite the direct comparison I wanted. It was also in a smaller theater and I don't think it was 4k as I saw it before (which was really clear, crisp, and awesome - frankly of more benefit than 3D, in my view!). So here are my thoughts now, both comparative notes, as well as just general comments.

First off, HFR unfortunately comes with 3D as a requirement. I have seen perhaps 5 movies in 3D in the theater, such a small number because I have very consciously avoided it after my first few experiences. I simply find it unconvincing, tacky, and a detriment to my immersion in and enjoyment of *any* film. Yes, even the poster child for 3D, Avatar, was I think cheapened and made even more gimmicky and fake-seeming by the addition of 3D. So if you like 3D, you can skip the next few paragraphs and/or take these comments with a big helping of salt. ;)

I have 3 major problems with 3D as it stands now, 2 are technology issues we'll just have to wait to be fixed, but 1 is a production/direction decision that should, in my view, be fixed *now*, and I don't get why it hasn't been. #1: I wear glasses (don't have contacts yet, I know I should get them), so the glasses aren't comfortable; they work, perhaps to the surprise of some, but they, along with the weight of my regular glasses, make my nose sore by the end. So, glasses-free 3D would be great. Even if I had contacts I'd much prefer this. 2: The 3D approach currently used causes significant and distracting dimming to the images on screen. So again, glasses-free 3D would be a lot better.

3: Perspective, distance, scale are all distorted, exaggerated, and just generally messed-up with at least some scenes, and often many scenes, and this really breaks my sense of immersion tremendously. It makes things look like a model, often-times, or  just clearly wrong. I think this is fixable, though, and I am guessing at least some of it comes down to the choice of depth separation for elements. Perhaps it is even technically realistic, but I don't think all the elements in the equation are being accounted for if that's the case, such as the variable size and distance of the screen. Perhaps it's not technically possible to make the effect work ideally for everyone all the time, but I think reducing the overall depth separation, i.e. making the effect more subtle, helps all around with this. Certainly there were a number of scenes in The Hobbit that were far less jarring and more natural-seeming, with just a hint of the 3D effect.

What makes it worse is that some directors, or whomever makes the decisions about 3D elements, seem to really buy-into the gimmicky aspect of it. I would have thought with a film-maker like Peter Jackson, someone who knows drama and spectacle like few others, would not stoop to cheap gimmicks like teeth flying at the screen when someone is hit in the face! And yet... there it is, tacky as hell. Completely ruining the ability to take the film as anything but slapstick and farce, at least for that moment, at best. Cheapening the entire film experience, at worst. At other times things that would work well in 2D with simple depth of field, such non-focal point birds flying across the camera on a landscape pull-out, instead look awkward and out of place in 3D, being so obviously separated from the background. I think DoF is often over-used or incorrectly used in CGI, sort of exaggerated almost to make a point (so to speak), and the same seems to be true of 3D right now.

The issue of combining 3D with Depth of Field has been commonly mentioned as well, and if the right directorial decisions are made I think it's less of an issue, but for example at the end of The Hobbit, on a pull-back in the treasure room, the foreground was fuzzy, but I found myself wanting to focus there, and indeed the eventual focal point ended up being there. It was only pushed into the background momentarily for dramatic effect. I feel like DoF works well to accomplish this goal, but 3D less so. I'm not sure how to necessarily reconcile the use of DoF with 3D, except to say I think it is probably less problematic in scenes with less depth, or less potential points of interest. In any case I certainly think there's room for improvement there.

I also think a lot of the compositing is made more difficult, complicated, or just more obvious with 3D. Especially with blurred elements (either by motion or depth of field) or lit elements (e.g. sparks). They just look incredibly obvious and awkward, like they're standing out from the screen, not fitting into what I'm watching at all. I don't know if this is just a problem of compositing, or (I think more likely) has to do with the higher-than-they-should-be distances/depths that are portrayed. I suspect if the 3D was overall more subtle, these things would stand out less. I'm sad to say I would guess the 3D effect is somewhat exaggerated deliberately so that audiences know they're getting the "3D Experience" and thus getting their money's worth. But it really does detract from most cinematic experiences for me.

OK, so with that out of the way, what about HFR? Well, sadly I feel like it was hard to separate the effect of HFR from the 3D, however I did notice everything being smoother. At first it did seem kind of like a soap opera or something, and some scenes even seemed to literally move a little too fast (like an old movie from the 1920's or something), but after the first 10-15 minutes I didn't see that anymore, except 1 scene toward the end. And after that I have to say it lost its strangeness fairly quickly. I feel like the 3D did a lot more to ruin my immersion or the effect of the CGI than the HFR, and I suspect (and hope) that I would get used to HFR in the cinema fairly easily, provided it didn't come with 3D as a requirement. I certainly hope that ends up being the case!

Now, on 2nd viewing I found the prosthetics actually less distracting. Some still not ideal (especially hobbit feet and ears, unfortunately), and the tremendous difference between dwarfs was kind of annoying and nonsensical, but somehow it all still worked a bit better for me. Maybe it was the HFR or 3D? Hard to say.

As Alex mentions, the pale orc really is rather lacking. I think I get what they were going for with his look, a sort of creepy, ethereal, ghostly creature, jarring in a way *because* he is smoother, less ragged and harsh than the other orcs, a sort of "savage refinement/beauty" or something. But it really just ends up looking simplistic and, well, unfinished. The scars in particular, as he points out, are just bad-looking. It seems like they're trying to depict some kind of ritual scarring since they're essentially symmetrical, but no other orcs seem to have them (sure, I get it, he's special, but then the orc king doesn't have them either), and the patterns themselves seem really simple and awkward. Then there's the look of the scarring itself, just very basic-looking, unrealistic, overly-smooth. Definitely a disappointment for such a major character, the central villain. In contrast I thought the orc king had grit, realism, subtlety and nuance, unique character, and everything else you'd want, yet he was on screen for all of 2 minutes. A shame.

Overall a pretty enjoyable film, and I once again found the time went by faster than I would expect, which is a good thing (and is in contrast to the previous 3 LotR films, which *felt* long). I will be looking forward to the next ones, but really hoping they choose to do HFR *without* 3D, and that they improve the prosthetics.

- Oshyan

TheBadger

Thanks you guys for sharing your thoughts in such detail. I will enjoy the film now regardless of if I like the movie for the movie. I definitely plan to scrutinize it now  ;D But yeah, still have not had the chance :-[

I agree with you guys whole heartedly about the "roller coster" thing in all the action movies lately. But for 3 exceptions...
1) Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark "bolder"
2)Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom "mine coster", which was a literal rolercoster (and would have made one of the best amusement park theme rides ever!)
3) The Last crusade There were like three of em' in that one.

I do not include the crystal skull in this list because that move was stupid regardless.

Yep, pretty sure Spielberg started it, at least for my viewing experience.
It has been eaten.

Oshyan

Good points about the "rollercoaster" scenes Badger. You know what I think it may be is how modern computer graphics and the resulting lack of need to actually perform this crazy stuff as stunts, means that directors/writers/whatever can choose to make things *way more crazy* and hence unrealistic. It's like how in the movie Stealth, even though the CGI landscapes were pretty well done and realistic, they were made very unrealistic-looking and obviously CGI because of the really huge, fast camera moves the director chose to make. Obviously no real-world camera is moving at 10,000 miles an hour from above the clouds to the surface in 3 seconds, and it just highlighted how fake it was. In e.g. The Hobbit, the incredibly smooth, essentially perfect motion of the camera as it follows the crazy run through the goblin caves is so clearly detached from reality, it takes a crazy idea in concept alone, and makes it seem all too perfect, almost pedestrian despite how crazy the coincidences and whatnot are, and I think that really cheapens it. Also I just touched on another thing that I think really has gotten worse and worse and that is the coincidences that happen, that align just perfectly so everything works out at the end of the sequence. This was pretty bad in e.g. Pirates of the Caribbean movies, but has gotten even worse I think.

- Oshyan

Bjur

Hi guys, long time no see..

Back again and you should be prepared to face lots of newbie questions in the near future!  ;D

"Rollercoaster Scenes". It´s a funny term but it fits perfect for things Jackson have done to The Hobbit.
I think the nice old Indiana Jones movies were supposed to be a kind of rollercoaster adventures. Unfortunately for Tolkiens universe it doesnt work well and Tolkien would be really pissed i bet, if he would be still alive with an eye on the productions and its contents.

Even in LOTR where some rollercoaster "light" foul play scenes Jackson never should have brought in for the credibility of some main characters/plot.
Anyone remembers the "OMG!" scene of Legolas in the Helms Deep battle in The Two Towers movie?
He was jumping on a buckler and during surfing down a long stairway, he is shooting several Orcs with his bow.. OMG!

I hope Jackson pulls back in the future and let the VFX work again just for supporting content and the story of a movie and dont use a story and characters/contents just for starring his VFX-Studio (WETA) possibilitys like George Lucas did with ILM in the last years = no clear visions and good content/script anymore, just a trust that "lots" VFX will do it (next Star Wars 7 will be directed by J.J. Abrams btw., dont know it´s good or bad)..

I loved the Indy series btw., but dont liked the last one too. If you have the time and a beer, try this review of Indy 4 from Mr. Plinkett from redlettermedia.com   :) :

http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/indiana-jones-and-the-kingdom-of-the-crystal-skull/

But his style is a bit, err, kinda individually as a fake, creepy old movie freak. But i hope he will make also a review about "The Hobbit" soon. ^
~ The annoying popularity of Vue brought me here.. ~

TheBadger

Oshyan,
I think you are absolutely right about the problem being a lack of realism based on a lack of real action. Consider the first in the new Bond trilogy (BEST Bond ever, by the way). In the first film they start out with a sequence like we have been talking about (where Bond chases the bomb maker through the construction site).
Its just like the other roller coster scenes, but the camera is grounded to the actors and to real physics. Of course nothing in that sequence is real, or rather I should say, nothing in that sense really happened. But because the actors are real and not animated, the camera had to stick to floating and moving likewise in a real way. The result was a very real looking sequence that lots of the fantasy movies loose out on. The scene from bond though, was really crazy like you described crazy in your post. But it works.

This is a good lesson for me. I do love the grand camera flybys. But now I see why, in a more analytical way, why this kind of stuff will and will not work for realism.

Bjur
When you mentioned the elf surfing/shooting part of the LTOR movies I knew right away to what you were referring. I absolutely hated those scenes. There was one in the last film too, where the elf slid down the elephants trunk. Those scenes nearly ruined the movies for me. I really had to make a deliberate effort to pretend that they did not happen in order to keep enjoying the movies. That kind of stuff in the movies really harms suspension of disbelief.

Also
Quotecreepy old movie freak
is a great term! I just decided this is what I want to be when I grow up ;D

By the way guys. If you look in Hannes' thread of his new animation project, there is a link I posted to a software plug-in that might be of some help with the high frame rate issues we were talking about.
people mentioned doing motion blur to control the effects. So there is a software for you to do that with.
It has been eaten.

Oshyan

Good example from Casino Royale (first Daniel Craig Bond film). I agree with all your points. We *can* have these wild "ride" sequences, have them be fun and cool, but *also* be realistic enough to not lose the audience. You can see a similar comparison with the older Indiana Jones movies (e.g. mine car sequence) vs. Indy 4, Plinkett points out a lot of this in his review of Indy 4. The mine car sequence, while also largely in miniature, still had to deal with normal camera limitations and movement (albeit on a smaller scale). It's exaggerated, but not impossible.

I had forgotten about the shield-surfing scene in LotR! Perhaps just willful amnesia. ;) Somehow I thought The Hobbit was the first of Jackson's Tolkien world imaginings to feature this abomination. But I realize now that's not the case. So, at the least, I guess I had no good reason to expect better from Jackson. ;)

In any case, really a shame that this trend is continuing. I hope at some point we'll rebound back to reality once directors have gotten the "Woah, I can do anything I want!" out of their systems and they come down to Earth and realize that hey, yes, you still need to tell a good story, *visually* as well as otherwise, and just like you don't want your actors stage-shouting their lines, you don't want the camera doing loop-de-loops around a goblin fight.

- Oshyan

Tangled-Universe

The shield surfing scene by Legolas in LotR was beyond ridiculous, so was the giant elephant take down scene by Legolas.
Definitely agree with your there Oshyan and others.

I'm afraid this negative fashion you describe here is not really completely in the hands of the directors though.
If we look at 3D; the vast majority of directors isn't keen on having their movie shot/converted into 3D, but the big studio bosses want it because it's a cash cow. I think there's some similarity here between the two.

Oshyan

Fair point Martin. I wonder how much comes from the script writer, how much from the director, and how much from... the producer. Watch this story from Kevin Smith for more on that. :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgYhLIThTvk

- Oshyan