Rendering Skyboxes. Problems with lighting.

Started by Draigr, November 03, 2011, 09:13:40 AM

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Draigr

#15
@Matt: Cloud's acceleration is already at none. There were those weird blocking issues when I was working on the scene ages ago. So the clouds have always had no acceleration.

@FrankB: I'm giving your suggestion a go. It's making a scene not nearly as spectacular as I'm after, because of all the lighting fudging I'm having to do. But it does seem to be working. The fill lights don't alleviate the contrast issues straight off the bat, but they do seem to be helping me fiddle with lighting now that GI is off.

@Kadri: It's a sound idea, but it ruins my method of doing a spherical imagemap. The stitching programs get hitched up on the ceiling and floor images, which I need to properly finish off the skydome. A straight panorama stitch of the horizontal shots works fine. Although the contrast/HDR issues are still abundant.


@General:

I've perfected the blender process. At most, all I need to do right now is reimport images that have been rendered over by Terragen and hit bake on the sphere. Which means that doesn't take long to find out how the panorama rendered out. Now it's just fixing the Terragen issues. The wierd contrast still appears whenever there's any sort of significant interaction with the sun. There's a little bit of a line between each image even at a 90 degree sun angle and very low intensity, like below 1. The effect starts to become much more noticeable as the sun arcs down. What's worse is that it's only on one or two shots, the rest render out fine with each other.

I might be able to alleviate the issue by having the two opposing sun lamps (already tested with one, seems to exacerbate things sometimes) angled to hit the camera side on rather than directly. But that's for another day. It's almost 4:30 AM and I still haven't solved it to my satisfaction.

Matt

I'd like to figure out what's causing this. If you're still having edge discrepancies when there is no GI and cloud acceleration caches are all set to None, could you please send us a TGD so we can investigate? You can email support at planetside.co.uk

Matt
Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

Oshyan

Is it possible it's partially a problem in the stitch process? Have you compared the original image edges in a supported image editor that can handle EXRs? The actual tone curve - not just GI or lighting in general - looks different to me in some of the areas of the examples you posted. I don't know what your final output format is, but if there is any tone mapping from HDR to LDR going on, it could be treating each image differently. I imagine you've thought of that, but just in case...

- Oshyan

Draigr

@Matt: Thanks for the interest. I've sent the file off. So support should get it soon.

@Oshyan: I'm current rendering to BMP for precisely that reason. And because I can't preview images in .exr. All the programs I'm using at the moment treat the .exr files differently, which is a headache I don't really want to have to solve at the moment in addition to solving the issues with Terragen's lighting and rendering system.

Draigr

I've been getting closer and farther away all the time.

Hey Frank, how'd you go about setting up the lighting so that it eliminated the seams without ruining your scene?

This one is about as close to seamless as I can get:




Some recent fiddling got me this which I'm not entirely sure about, but I do like how the clouds are turning out.


FrankB

Quote from: Draigr on November 07, 2011, 09:46:24 AM
I've been getting closer and farther away all the time.

Hey Frank, how'd you go about setting up the lighting so that it eliminated the seams without ruining your scene?


I have no seams. I don't render any overlap. I render with a 90° horizontal FOV and turn the camera in 90° increments. This, so far, didn't get me any seams. Also, just to be sure, I put all GI values to 0, even though I have already deleted the enviro light node.
I don't know if that helps you, but I hope it does :)

Cheers,
Frank

Draigr

Thanks Frank. Already using 90 degree angles since this is a cubemap to sphere projection of sorts process.

Back again. Tried everything suggested so far. The following image was rendered using 6 90 degree shots, with a field of view of 90 degrees and no GI, the environment light was deleted. There is one sunlight at an elevation of 15 degrees, with a heading of 215, which is where I calculated the corner of the camera would be. (consider FOV and turning increments.)

Each of the fill lights are at 45 degrees in elevation and at the 45, 125 and 315 positions respectively.

The cloud optimisation is set to none. There is only one enabled cloud in the scene.

This is what I get:


Tangled-Universe

Can't you post a file? Without it I think we can't be of any help.

Cheers,
Martin

Draigr


Tangled-Universe

Thanks, will have a look at it once I'm back home from work...

Tangled-Universe

#25
I'm rendering this and am a bit surprised about how slow it is, as well as the weird rendersettings of detail 0.19 and AA1 with ray traced rendered atmosphere.
So I think we're dealing here with a lack of detail issue here rather than something mysterious.

To be continued...

edit: strange circular artefacts are gone after some simple adjustments...still a bit of seams though, but already solved that partially...to be continued... ;)

Draigr

Render setting are low to speed up iterations. If I did a full render at 4 AA and .65 detail I'd literally be there all night. I think it takes about 12 hours, most likely more now. That's for 1024 by 1024. Clouds aren't affected by detail settings and the ground/water isn't important in the scene.

Spherical artefacts are caused by the spherical mapping.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Tangled-Universe

#27
Quote from: Draigr on November 08, 2011, 06:52:18 PM
Render setting are low to speed up iterations. If I did a full render at 4 AA and .65 detail I'd literally be there all night. I think it takes about 12 hours, most likely more now. That's for 1024 by 1024. Clouds aren't affected by detail settings and the ground/water isn't important in the scene.

Spherical artefacts are caused by the spherical mapping.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Spherical mapping of what?

I opened your file, got rid of the population, all the terrain and shaders, since you only see water.
Despite the water not being important, visually, it's definitely a source of the seams/artefacts you're seeing.
To fix this I increased the detail from 0.19, which is absolutely too low to expect any kind of correlation between the 6 sides of the cube, to 0.6.
I then increased AA from 1 to 4. AA1 is really really really too low. Even if you render with RTA and have tons of samples in your clouds. It just won't work for the aforementioned reason that the quality eventually is so low that you can't expect any correlation between the 6 sides of your cube.
To speed up rendertimes I reduced the cloud quality from 1 to 0.5.
A 400x400 frame takes roughly 4 minutes for me.

Despite these improvements there's still a visibile seam at the top and bottom of the image which I wasn't able to completely remove yet.
I used ray detail region padding up to 2 to make adjacent cube-faces account for shadows as well, helped a little, but not enough.

All in all I think the difficulty here lies in A)the dark atmosphere and bright lighting B) the dense and really thick clouds.
Even without GI there's too much difference in lighting conditions between each cube face.

A work-around would be to use more sensible settings for everything.
You have huge thick clouds which take very long to render, but you could also make smaller clouds which are less thick and blend them less out in the distance.
They will visually appear at the same position, but will render much faster.
If you don't touch things too much it shouldn't be too hard to do, as FrankB already pointed out.
Eventually you could post-work the skybox to get what you like.
All the problems with these skyboxes I've seen so far is with files where its settings have strongly deviated from the sensible default settings.

Another workaround is a previously made suggestion to change the FOV and render a lot more faces (with overlap). I believe it was Kadri who's suggesting that.
This way you should eventually be able to cover for the big differences in lighting everywhere.

Well, I hope things are a bit more clear now.

Cheers,
Martin

Draigr

I'm making the skydome image by projecting a cube with the rendered images mapped to it onto a reflective sphere.

Ok. Thanks for all that Martin. I do have a few questions though. You refer to things I know very little about:

1. What do you mean by "blend them less out in the distance."? In terms of terragen, I have no idea what that means or how to implement it.

2. If I like how clouds are turning out, changing something like the cloud depth/cloud density will completely change the strata. Unlike you, I still don't know a lot about hand building my own clouds in Terragen. I simply having had the time or years to learn all of that. Which means I'm stuck with procedural techniques which take days before I achieve something I'm after. Even if I am quite good at manipulating them in the direction I'm after.

3. You talk about settings outside the norm. What exactly is the norm?


I'm testing your suggestions out now. We'll see what happens. I've scaled everything right back, which means I don't like the clouds as much anymore, but it looks promising.

Kevin F