SOPA or No SOPA?

Matt · January 07, 2012, 11:00:30 PM

Quote from: ChrisC on January 07, 2012, 01:51:38 AM
Yes. In a Free-Market system with minimal Government, everyone gets an opportunity, everyone gets a fighting chance and things are more fair because the power and choices are turned over to us and not some lobby group that thinks if ten percent likes one thing then by force the other ninety percent must like that as well. We can regulate ourselves and allow more locality. The government is there more to protect our rights, freedom and security but when it reaches beyond it's original authority then we are mere sheep. Allow the Market to dictate fairness because we are the Market through the exchange of services and goods by means of a free-flowing monetary system using sound money.

I don't usually get into political discussion, but I couldn't help noticing an apparent contradiction here. If fairness is a free market where the price of something is determined by supply and demand, why can't free-market money be used to buy someone's loyalty? Why can't someone's loyalty have a price like anything else? I'm not saying it's a good thing when the loyalty being bought comes with the power to affect the rest of us, but if the market is truly open and someone's purchasing power is a function of how much money they have accumulated in that free market, then how can we say how the money should be spent? It might not seem right, but how do you clearly define that boundary?

AP · January 08, 2012, 01:52:25 AM

There is a lot to think about here and i do not pretend to know everything but i think it all comes down to pure freedom and with freedom does come risks as with anything. Issues of buying one's Loyalty for one. I think a man by the name of Milton Friedman can sum all this up best. Clearly these videos are mixed subjects, however they do represent at least the grand idea of a free-market in many areas. I can not say the US is 100% free-market, at least not yet if ever.

http://youtu.be/F4L-2wQcCI8

http://youtu.be/L-7oMOxPjNE

http://youtu.be/eWrImRnH6bw

http://youtu.be/YmqoCHR14n8

http://youtu.be/fu0hMiBTJPo

http://youtu.be/V8d42BMRNQ0

http://youtu.be/tdLBzfFGFQU

http://youtu.be/dZL25NSLhEA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPHs9Ln8QT8

TheBadger · January 08, 2012, 04:39:38 AM

An absolute free market would be anarchy. You would not do well in a market void of controls, no one would... Save the guy who uses it to totally take over everything. Balance is the key. That point exactly in the middle of Socialism and Fascism, between anarchy and perfect order. I would prefer the middle with a slight lean to fascism and anarchy. Nothing will ever be perfect, but a fighting chance will do.

@Matt/staff- I understand completely why you guys don't like to get into the weeds on this kind of stuff. But this law will definitely have an affect on your product and this community. So my question is, what to do? On the one hand you will have help fighting piracy, on the other the law will eventually lead to the silencing of individuals and groups. And the law will also make your company responsible (legally) for everything said and done on your website by outside users. Lots to worry about, either way.

AP · January 08, 2012, 05:25:34 AM

I am not suggesting a free-market would produce anarchy because there will be regulations to some small degree but from who and how much regulation?

http://youtu.be/L-7oMOxPjNE

TheBadger · January 08, 2012, 08:13:10 AM

Quote from: ChrisC on January 08, 2012, 05:25:34 AM
I am not suggesting a free-market would produce anarchy because there will be regulations to some small degree but from who and how much regulation?

http://youtu.be/L-7oMOxPjNE

I am saying that a true "free" market, is anarchy.

Matt · January 08, 2012, 04:39:19 PM

Quote from: TheBadger on January 08, 2012, 04:39:38 AM
@Matt/staff- I understand completely why you guys don't like to get into the weeds on this kind of stuff. But this law will definitely have an affect on your product and this community. So my question is, what to do? On the one hand you will have help fighting piracy, on the other the law will eventually lead to the silencing of individuals and groups. And the law will also make your company responsible (legally) for everything said and done on your website by outside users. Lots to worry about, either way.

Agreed. I think SOPA is wrong.

AP · January 10, 2012, 05:40:43 AM

Quote from: TheBadger on January 08, 2012, 08:13:10 AM
Quote from: ChrisC on January 08, 2012, 05:25:34 AM
I am not suggesting a free-market would produce anarchy because there will be regulations to some small degree but from who and how much regulation?

http://youtu.be/L-7oMOxPjNE

I am saying that a true "free" market, is anarchy.

Well, if we need anything on how to properly run a free-market, all we have to do is listen to the wise of which sadly few listen to.

http://youtu.be/bOMksnSaAJ4

inkydigit · January 10, 2012, 11:09:38 AM

no sopa...

AP · January 10, 2012, 03:52:06 PM

I hate to keep dwelling on this subject but i will end it here. I do not think you will have Anarchy in a free market. You either have a free market or you do not. We do not have one. What we have is socialism and fascism at play (both parties are to blame), both which are harmful to the market and this is nothing new. FDR's new deal is a classic case and those executive orders prolonged the great depression, a fine example of government involved in the market place. The wall street bail outs, another bad case of government involved in the market. The federal reserve toying with the dollar, again another bad case. I can go on and on. If anyone is suggesting government oversight to our market, then all you have to do is look at history as it has done more harm then good. Why trust the government to assume they know better to shift and manipulate other peoples money. The best way to invest, spend and save money is you and that is how one can grow a healthy economy. How anyone can think government can somehow crate jobs, stimulate the economy, spend our money best and bail out failing companies needs to study history and understand more about basic economics. We have spent to long trusting our governments for our welfare and look what that has done. Greece, Spain, Portugal, France, now the US. There are no mandates in the US Constitution to overlook our commerce, healthcare and private lives. The Founding Fathers intent to our Republic is limited government, a strong national defense and economic liberty in our lives which maximizes personal freedom without introducing anarchy nor steering toward totalitarianism. Fascism and Socialism are steps away from Totalitarianism.

rcallicotte · January 10, 2012, 07:05:21 PM

I can see this. Thanks for explaining what you see.

Quote from: ChrisC on January 10, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
I hate to keep dwelling on this subject but i will end it here. I do not think you will have Anarchy in a free market. You either have a free market or you do not. We do not have one. What we have is socialism and fascism at play (both parties are to blame), both which are harmful to the market and this is nothing new. FDR's new deal is a classic case and those executive orders prolonged the great depression, a fine example of government involved in the market place. The wall street bail outs, another bad case of government involved in the market. The federal reserve toying with the dollar, again another bad case. I can go on and on. If anyone is suggesting government oversight to our market, then all you have to do is look at history as it has done more harm then good. Why trust the government to assume they know better to shift and manipulate other peoples money. The best way to invest, spend and save money is you and that is how one can grow a healthy economy. How anyone can think government can somehow crate jobs, stimulate the economy, spend our money best and bail out failing companies needs to study history and understand more about basic economics. We have spent to long trusting our governments for our welfare and look what that has done. Greece, Spain, Portugal, France, now the US. There are no mandates in the US Constitution to overlook our commerce, healthcare and private lives. The Founding Fathers intent to our Republic is limited government, a strong national defense and economic liberty in our lives which maximizes personal freedom without introducing anarchy nor steering toward totalitarianism. Fascism and Socialism are steps away from Totalitarianism.

AP · January 11, 2012, 03:05:32 AM

Quote from: calico on January 10, 2012, 07:05:21 PM
I can see this. Thanks for explaining what you see.

Quote from: ChrisC on January 10, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
I hate to keep dwelling on this subject but i will end it here. I do not think you will have Anarchy in a free market. You either have a free market or you do not. We do not have one. What we have is socialism and fascism at play (both parties are to blame), both which are harmful to the market and this is nothing new. FDR's new deal is a classic case and those executive orders prolonged the great depression, a fine example of government involved in the market place. The wall street bail outs, another bad case of government involved in the market. The federal reserve toying with the dollar, again another bad case. I can go on and on. If anyone is suggesting government oversight to our market, then all you have to do is look at history as it has done more harm then good. Why trust the government to assume they know better to shift and manipulate other peoples money. The best way to invest, spend and save money is you and that is how one can grow a healthy economy. How anyone can think government can somehow crate jobs, stimulate the economy, spend our money best and bail out failing companies needs to study history and understand more about basic economics. We have spent to long trusting our governments for our welfare and look what that has done. Greece, Spain, Portugal, France, now the US. There are no mandates in the US Constitution to overlook our commerce, healthcare and private lives. The Founding Fathers intent to our Republic is limited government, a strong national defense and economic liberty in our lives which maximizes personal freedom without introducing anarchy nor steering toward totalitarianism. Fascism and Socialism are steps away from Totalitarianism.

No problem. I think folks are starting to really wake up to what is happening before our eyes. There is legitimate reasoning as to why Ron Paul is gaining more ground then ever. See what he has to say about SOPA here:

http://youtu.be/phRi80HBIuU

yossam · January 15, 2012, 12:58:30 PM

Looks like they are going to pull the DNS blocking provision from both SOPA and PIPA for "further study". Our president has expressed concerns about both bills (finally), but has not gone as far as saying that he will veto the bills if passed. There is still plenty wrong with both of these attempts to limit our freedom of speech, but I feel that this will probably help get the bills passed by our legislators. Only time will tell............

efflux · January 17, 2012, 10:11:51 PM

Ron Paul is the only option left. Another asshole President for the US will be fatal. Not just for the US but for the rest of the world. I don't even agree with all Ron Paul's rigid libertarianism but the fact is, he sticks to principles. He might not be allowed to stand even if he was to get enough votes. He may not be able to do much since the rest of the US government is corrupt but support for him is a clear message. The more he is ignored or attacked the clearer it becomes who the tyrants are. Obama is a pure puppet of the Anglo/American banking Oligarchs. The last real President of the US was Kennedy.

The bankers/Oligarchs want the rest of the world to turn against the US. Especially Russia and China. The US has historically been the enemy of Oligarchs not the enemy of people seeking freedom.

Democracy began in Attica Greece. They did not have elections. People served in power via lottery. They did however vote unpopular people out. These people were then ostricised. They flourished in wealth and culture because people could not easily buy power, that is until the Oligarchs took over again. They set themselves up at Delphi as essentially the first bankers. The various City States seeked advice from the Oracle i.e. about going to war with each other. The Oligarchs funded both sides and kept power no matter what happened. They control people by keeping them stupid and providing them with various lies and fake options of right/left, fascism/communism, competing religions etc etc.

The Atticans had the first real money or at least the first that was widely accepted but then it was quickly manipulated and devalued.

Gold is worth huge amounts more and silver has gone up as well. When everyone is investing in total BS and lies that's when you can gather the most wealth while you at least hope that everyone else will wake up in time before it's too late.

Nothing changes and people do not seem to learn.