Why the Meltdown Should Have Surprised No One

Started by AP, May 14, 2012, 05:09:50 AM

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TheBadger

The more violent leftists become, the better it is for the right. There have already been 6 murders directly related to the occupy movement. And the planed bombing in Chicago by some of the protesters really hurt their cause.

Unless Romney totally screws himself, it is a near certainty that Obama will loose. Look at the Wisconsin recall. Waker won BIG.
I am not embracing Romney at all, but in the last 4 years Americans have lost nearly 40% of their personal wealth. Obama cant over come that. So unless Romney gets caught giving a blow job to a dead male hooker, he will win.

It has been eaten.

AP

Speaking of American's loosing there wealth...

http://youtu.be/byhHWoTK1AI


There might be some hope even if Romney wins as explained here.

http://youtu.be/ERI52UndhE4

Thinking about this logically without emotions as this makes sense to me.

JimB

Quote from: penang on June 10, 2012, 01:10:57 AM
Just because Krugman got the Nobel prize doesn't mean he is right all the time
Straw man argument? I don't think even Krugman would say he gets it right all the time.
Quote from: penang on June 10, 2012, 01:10:57 AM
But anyway, that Krugman's argument just does not gel - you can't pay debt with more debts, and then repeat it time, after time, after time
Whereas all that's happening under the current neoliberal economic system is the debt's being constantly shifted around the globe, and keeps coming back to haunt us.
Quote from: ChrisC on June 10, 2012, 02:57:58 AM
Keynesian Economics will never work. You just can not keep printing money until it looses it's value to the point of being nothing more then worthless paper. It has been getting at that point over the decades now anyways.
And we've had thirty years of neoliberal/Chicago School/Austrian School economics. Coincidence?
Quote from: TheBadger on June 12, 2012, 09:55:51 PM
The more violent leftists become, the better it is for the right. There have already been 6 murders directly related to the occupy movement.  And the planed bombing in Chicago by some of the protesters really hurt their cause.
Sources for these claims? Bloggers? I've seen no evidence of the Oakland shooters being part of Occupy, for example, and Oakland city haven't blamed Occupy for the crimes, only for perhaps impeding police because of manpower allocation. The 15 year old kid clearly had issues, just as Gabrielle Giffords' assailant had.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.

penang

Quote from: matrix2003 on June 12, 2012, 07:17:02 AM"Big business sitting on vast cash reserves, refusing to hire. GOP stalling economy."
"Companies Sitting On Record Surpluses of Cash"

" Mar 19, 2012 – Apple is sitting on nearly $98 billion dollars in cash and securities. ..."

"March 1, 2012 - Hundreds of Billions Sitting on Tech Companies' Balance Sheets"


I do not know whether to laugh, or to cry

What does billions or trillions sitting in corporate's vault has to do with anything ?

Or you mean that those corporations must emptied their vaults and distribute all their money to the lazy bums who are disgusted at any notion of "work" ?


penang

#19
Quote from: JimB on June 13, 2012, 06:26:27 PM
Quote from: penang on June 10, 2012, 01:10:57 AMJust because Krugman got the Nobel prize doesn't mean he is right all the time

Straw man argument? I don't think even Krugman would say he gets it right all the time.



Krugman does NOT have to say "I am right all the time" out loud

In almost every single article that Krugman wrote, in almost every single interview that he gave, - on the air or online, - anyone, even a 3rd grader, can sense Krugman's arrogance, that he is right all the time, and anyone who disagree with him must be brainless

I listened to one interview he gave when he visited BBC's studio in London, and in that interview, he was selling his "SPEND, SPEND, SPEND SOME MORE" ideology

But when the BBC interviewer told him that Germany would never subscribe to his view, especially Angela Merkel, Germany's Chancellor, and Wolfgang Schaeuble, Germany's Finance Minister, would dispute Krugman's idea, you know what Krugman said?

"They are wrong !!"

JimB

Quote from: penang on June 14, 2012, 01:01:36 AM
Quote from: matrix2003 on June 12, 2012, 07:17:02 AM"Big business sitting on vast cash reserves, refusing to hire. GOP stalling economy."
"Companies Sitting On Record Surpluses of Cash"
" Mar 19, 2012 – Apple is sitting on nearly $98 billion dollars in cash and securities. ..."
"March 1, 2012 - Hundreds of Billions Sitting on Tech Companies' Balance Sheets"


I do not know whether to laugh, or to cry
What does billions or trillions sitting in corporate's vault has to do with anything ?
Or you mean that those corporations must emptied their vaults and distribute all their money to the lazy bums who are disgusted at any notion of "work" ?

I think you miss Matrix's point, and lazy bums has nothing to do with it, nor is anyone asking for corporations to empty their bank accounts. A capitalist economy requires capital to circulate for it to remain prosperous and healthy. When an ever increasing share of the means of trade is locked away to gather dust in bank vaults, a capitalist economy stagnates (look around). If those accruing more and more of the capital refuse to circulate the money, and the vast majority have effectively seen their wages drop worldwide (and unable to reinstate their wage levels due to increased curbs on their ability to organise their labour to pressure corporations to release more money to them), something must happen to stimulate the economy, right?
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.

JimB

Quote from: penang on June 14, 2012, 01:08:42 AM
Krugman does NOT have to say "I am right all the time" out loud

Actually, he does.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.

penang

Quote from: JimB on June 14, 2012, 03:42:12 AM
Quote from: penang on June 14, 2012, 01:01:36 AM
Quote from: matrix2003 on June 12, 2012, 07:17:02 AM"Big business sitting on vast cash reserves, refusing to hire. GOP stalling economy."
"Companies Sitting On Record Surpluses of Cash"
" Mar 19, 2012 – Apple is sitting on nearly $98 billion dollars in cash and securities. ..."
"March 1, 2012 - Hundreds of Billions Sitting on Tech Companies' Balance Sheets"


I do not know whether to laugh, or to cry
What does billions or trillions sitting in corporate's vault has to do with anything ?
Or you mean that those corporations must emptied their vaults and distribute all their money to the lazy bums who are disgusted at any notion of "work" ?

I think you miss Matrix's point, and lazy bums has nothing to do with it, nor is anyone asking for corporations to empty their bank accounts. A capitalist economy requires capital to circulate for it to remain prosperous and healthy. When an ever increasing share of the means of trade is locked away to gather dust in bank vaults, a capitalist economy stagnates (look around). If those accruing more and more of the capital refuse to circulate the money, and the vast majority have effectively seen their wages drop worldwide (and unable to reinstate their wage levels due to increased curbs on their ability to organise their labour to pressure corporations to release more money to them), something must happen to stimulate the economy, right?



Reading what you've written, I admit that you do have a point

However, you may have mis-read the economic theory

You see, for the things to go true, according to what you say, the world's economy must be limited to only a certain amount of dollar bills

Or put it another way, what you say will be true if this world only works in a "Zero-Sum game"

In the zero-sum-game scenario, a dollar locked inside a vault will be a dollar lost in circulation, and the multiplier effect of the loss of that one dollar may even resulted in a "bufferly flap its wing that determines formation of a hurricane"


Unfortunately, the world we live does not obey the rules of Zero-Sum game

Heard of "Value-Add" ?

A piece of rock that may worth only 10 cents, may be turned into a piece of metal that worth $1, and in turn, may worth $100, or $1,000 if the metal is turned into an art piece, or part of a high-tech gadget

Viewing from this angle, that dollar locked inside the vault of a corporation, while may not generate any beneficial effect for the market of a whole, does not play such a significant role on the overall health of the economy

For the economy has its own way to generate even more dollars than that one dollar that is locked inside that vault


And one other thing - apology for my digress --- the BILLIONS that stays in the bank accounts of the corporations are not static.

The banks, which the billion-dollar corporate accounts reside, do "re-circulate" those money, using them as basis for loan that they give out to other customers, and so on



penang

I am not a German, but I do admire Angela Merkel - she has guts and she has principle

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18438402

"Mrs Merkel .... repeated that growth should not be financed by more debt."

"We must all resist the temptation to finance growth again through new debt," she said.

JimB

Quote from: penang on June 14, 2012, 05:01:32 AM
However, you may have mis-read the economic theory

You see, for the things to go true, according to what you say, the world's economy must be limited to only a certain amount of dollar bills

Which need to be in circulation. The model is pretty straightforward. Without being in circulation the dollar bills may as well not exist, so you therefore have a deficit of dollar bills in the economy making everyone poorer.

Swings both ways.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.

JimB

Quote from: penang on June 14, 2012, 05:23:35 AM
"Mrs Merkel .... repeated that growth should not be financed by more debt."

A third of Sweden's workforce are employed by government with 70% of the total workforce unionised, and only an average 40% take home on wages after tax. Sweden is weathering the financial storms very well compared to most, with a consistent decline in public debt, a high standard of living, and with what seems to be a very rational mix of capitalism with extensive welfare benefits.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.

TheBadger

Sweden also has the weakest families and highest divorce rate in the world. A culture that is nearly completely dead. And with little exception, produces very little innovation in any discipline.


On proof of murder relating to the occupy movement, you are right that it is difficult to directly tie the murders to the movement. However, other violence can be and is, directly tied to the movement and its participants. The attempted bombing in Chicago would have killed many, and the mob did hurt many people last month.

A news report on rape in the movement
http://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assaults-occupy-wall-street-camps/story?id=14873014#.T9nyZ46BKbw
http://nation.foxnews.com/wall-street-protests/2011/11/02/now-silent-occupy-wall-st-sex-assaults
It has been eaten.

Walli

Quote from: TheBadger on June 14, 2012, 10:19:44 AM
Sweden also has the weakest families and highest divorce rate in the world. A culture that is nearly completely dead. And with little exception, produces very little innovation in any discipline.
A high divorce rate usually just means that women have the option to do so - in many other countries they simply can´t. Sweden has a higher fertility rate then germany for example and is almost on same level as US for example. And sweden is rated as one of the top innovators in europe, they just don´t make money of it.

TheBadger

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to hate on Sweden.
But the state of the family unit there is the subject of many many many sociology papers. Researchers nearly all say that the state of family has a direct relationship with the extent of the welfare provided by the government. Families are just not economically necessary for people in sweden. If the system ever breaks down there, it will be a nightmare. People throughout the West can divorce as they see fit, but it happens in sweden more than any other place in the world.
My parents divorced when I was 6. I can tell you I would have rather had my family intact, than to have had free doctors visits.

I felt a little lazy, so I used wikipedia to check your statement that sweden is an innovator. I don't see how what you said is possible. Their main industrial exports are medicine and weapons. Also bad furniture.

I think swedes are good people, smart people. But it seams like their social system holds them back. Although, sweden is not a very good example for this conversation, because the populations there is so small. You can't really tell what the truth of the economic arguments are until you see it played out on a massive scale; All of europe, the US, Russia, China, and so on.

What I said about swedish culture is true. What developed as a way to make sense of reality and create identity is no longer necessary anymore. The social system defines who the people are. The government is Mother and Father.

Stats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sweden
It has been eaten.

JimB

Quote from: TheBadger on June 14, 2012, 10:19:44 AM
Sweden also has the weakest families and highest divorce rate in the world.

What Walli said.

Quote from: TheBadger on June 14, 2012, 10:19:44 AM
A culture that is nearly completely dead. And with little exception, produces very little innovation in any discipline.

Really?

http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Business/Innovation/
http://www.swedishwire.com/nordic/4840-how-sweden-became-an-innovation-frontrunner

Cardiac pacemaker, three-point seatbelt, the zipper, safety matches, dynamite (think Nobel), nicotine gum, drinks cartons, ball bearings, the adjustable wrench, the artificial kidney, Bluetooth. 3% of GDP invested in research.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.