Permissions, copyrights, notifications, etiquette TG2 forum

[TheBadger]

Hello,

Permissions and copyrights
I would like to ask the planetside staff, and TG2 community to create a quick and easy way to identify permissions for the file sharing section.
The informal nature of posting there has begun to make me question whats what.

What I mean is, I would like to know with certainty what it is I can use from a file someone posts. Can I use the file as is, any way I want. Or can I use only certain nodes from the file.

What if the person who posts a file does not want us to use it, but only posts it so others can understand whats been done and how? In this case, if I copy the method with my own seeds and numbers, but its the same, or basically the same node structure, whats the difference?

Are we to assume that a file post is free to use any way we like, unless otherwise noted? Or should I assume I am not free to use it, unless otherwise noted?
I think one of the two must be the standard for the forum, clearly stated in the forum, and understood by all... posters and downloaders.

perhaps some extra options in the upload window that forces the uploader to state what the permissions are before posting?! And those permissions then appear in the OP?

Notifications and etiquette
I think its just nice, if I make a good image based on something someone else on this forum taught me how to do, to say thanks.
But what if I make an image I sold, and should not or can not post. What is proper then? (this has not happened yet)
Its obvious to me that its not good to just take someones file, change a few colors, and then say I made it. But what about a string of  nodes for a, say, cloud bank. What then?

I would like to know clearly what I can use, and what I cant.
A discussion on this would be good.

[Henry Blewer]

My files can be used without worry. I strip out the purchased presets. I leave the population settings; you'll need to use your own objects.

[Oshyan]

We don't have any real way to setup, much less enforce, any of kind of terms of service for people's individual uploads, at least not at the point of upload. That would require modifications to the forum system that we don't have the expertise to develop. Hopefully people realize that if they post a file publicly, it's out there and anyone can do what they want with it, regardless of any restrictions that they might want to have on it. We leave it to the uploader to specify the additional permissions on their files.

What we could do, and is probably a good idea, is specify a default license/terms of use in a sticky thread in the File Sharing section. The question is whether the default permissions should be restrictive or permissive. Something like the following might work:

"By uploading files to this forum, you agree to the following terms of use for your submissions, unless you specify otherwise in the body of your forum post or in an included license file in your download. All submitted files are for personal, non-commercial use, unless otherwise specified. File submissions may be used for any non-commercial purpose, but any image which makes use of a resource shared here should include credit to the original author. Files may not be re-uploaded to other file hosting services, nor can they be repackaged by anyone, or sold for profit. Explicit permission must be granted by the file uploader for any rights or usage not clearly outlined in this Terms of Use statement. All files are assumed to be copyright of the uploader, unless otherwise specified."

Note that I didn't specify whether you can "use something without modification" or "use it just to learn from" as I really think people's intentions with file uploads vary, not only from person-to-person, but even from upload to upload. So it's up to them to be clear about the terms under which they want their work used. Judging by your message it seems you have an intuition about what is fair use for these files and you should really just stick with that. If you're concerned about *other* people re-using your files, then either make a clear statement of *your* usage limits when you upload something, or simply refrain from uploading anything.

- Oshyan

[TheBadger]

The question is whether the default permissions should be restrictive or permissive.

I like the idea of default permissions. I think because it is a sharing forum, that the sharing should be without restraint, except when noted by the uploader.
certainly repacking a complete and original file would be shity. But using it in a new original work, but in the same fashion seems to be the point.

My vote is for permissive, all personal use including monetary gain so long as the shared file is used in a new original work, and not redistributed or re posted.

I dont want to use something in a way that it was not intended, that is why I am asking. The fact is that I learn from these files, they become methodology. For example, in nearly every scene I do I basically follow the process from "BenMcDuff". I change everything, but I always follow that order. Thats how I learned.
Its the same with the clip files and .tgd(s). If a file shows how to do something specifically, then thats how I learn to do it. I change it to look like I want it to, but its basically going to be the same node structure even if it looks so different no one could tell. The nodes are basically the same, but the math is different.

I just want to know how people intend things to be used, because I really wont use them wrongly. I think most of the people here would not, and thats another reason I think the default should be positive.

No i am not asking because I have something lined up. I was only thinking about because I realized I would never have understood a few things without seeing some files.

but any image which makes use of a resource shared here should include credit to the original author

This would mean that for everything I ever do, or show someone, I would have to thank John (schmeerlap).

[Simius Strabus]

Whenever I build a scene or animation I try to credit people as much as I can. Adding links to posts or sites where to find information, files, software etc.
When I do use elements that other people build, I use them only to learn from and mostly change a lot before I use them.

[dandelO]

I think most people understand that if you upload anything to the internet, especially things that are intended for others to dissect and modify, you are basically giving away any right for it to be your own personal and original property, just don't upload your own, or download other people's, files if you believe any different. Anything I've posted can be used without any worry about me as the original creator getting mumpy about it being used. I've seen loads of things, especially TG2, where I know 'I made this-or-that-part', or the like, if there's no mention anywhere of that, that's fine, if you don't want people to use your stuff, just don't post it, I reckon if it's posted publicly, though(as in a forum), then the poster knows it can be used in any way that the downloader deems fit, and it will be.
If it's true that this isn't the case with what you feel about files shared publicly and that the shouldn't be used, for whatever reasons, then that poster should remove their files. Just respect the OP's wishes on usage/credits/terms/etc. if there are any. Most times in here, there aren't. With any files you find lying around, well, anyone who has the sense and brains to make a forum post that shares anything that other's can have should also have the brains to work out that people will do as they please with that post and its contents. I wouldn't worry about it.

[TheBadger]

Actually dandelO is one of the people I was thinking of when I asked my question.

I started to learn TG2 to add a new set of skills to my portfolio. So imagine your self in a job interview, and take martin's grass shader as an example.
Suppose you have grass from martin, that you modified to fit your own needs. Should I think of martin like a teacher who showed me how to make my own work, or is the work partly his? I would not mention a teacher in a job interview, clearly I had teachers. But a collaborator I would mention.

For juxtaposition, think of someone taking a terrain from one file, clouds from another, lights from yet another, and maybe a planet2 object from some place else. The person slaps them together, renders, and then says look what I made. A new image has been made, but I wouldn't say that it was his. That would be more like a partnership between a director and a set designer or an actor, maybe.
As a photographer, when I go to photograph a forest I don't start by planting trees. But then again there is never any question if I made the trees. Objects are another story.

In my maze world project its no trouble for me to admit that I could not have done it without help from people here. Kadri, for example provided a file that showed me step by step how to make the shape I needed and then how to map it. Tangled-Universe actually fixed some image map files so that I could use them in TG2.
The Image was my idea, I did the work. But I feel like I should carry photos of you guys in my wallet. Am I just feeling thankful or do I owe something the way there are credits in a film. whether or not you want credit, what is right and what is professional?

I would not want to suggest in an interview, that work is someone else's, if it is in fact, mine. I realize this is a little philosophical than the OP, but in addition to your opinion on the OP questions, I would like to hear your thoughts. I don't just want to be a talented digital image maker, I want to be an ethical one.

Ty

[Cyber-Angel]

Should there be some sort of license system here, like Creative Commons like they have on Flickr? Where the user can set usage restrictions on their work: but then you'd need the back end infrastructure too support and enforce it!

You'd want a system that is open enough to promote and encourage learning, experimentation and creativity, in other words what is best about this community whilst protecting the rights of the original artist in their work: the system what ever it was, would need to strike a vary fine balance or things would lead to murky areas like digital watermarks and litigation.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel               

[Kadri]

...
In my maze world project its no trouble for me to admit that I could not have done it without help from people here.
Kadri, for example provided a file that showed me step by step how to make the shape I needed and then how to map it.
...

As for your question about the topic stating the above one is nice and more then i wanted
I didn't wanted anything in return. If i wanted credit i had stated there .

If i use anything from another uploader i judge how much i owe him .
If i used it nearly as it was i will mention him. If i changed it much and feel that it is not his work anymore i will not mention him.
Where the line is is subjective probably but i try to be more to side for the uploader to be ethical .
Other wise probably many of us here should put a very long list under the images.

But then the first credit should go to Matt probably 

There are the ones who take and run and others who are very kind and thanks anytime more then needed.

I do not think so deep about this.
And if there isn't any legal blabla attached it is up to the downloader all the time how to use it.
I think along the line like Martin(Dandelo) about this.

[Oshyan]

I think we're going to take a pretty hands-off approach to this for now. I suspect that the more we try to set rules, the more responsible we are for enforcing them, and that's definitely not something we have the time or interest to deal with. So, everyone posts their files at their own risk, and if they want anything other than "take and use at will" from people, they need to specify it.

Badger, I think you're honestly over-analyzing things a bit. This *is* a subject that has been widely debated, not just here in the Terragen forums, but really ever since there were 3D graphics programs where you could trade files and techniques, and probably since the beginning of art if you really think about it. What about artists who make their own paint brushes and mix their own paints vs. those that don't; is one more legitimate than the other? Does one make better *art* than the other, necessarily?

You can argue the "investment" level of any artist in a given piece, how much time, effort, skill did it take, etc.; does a photograph take less skill than a painting of the same thing, for example. But ultimately there are so many perspectives to approach it from, whether it is art, vs. whether it is valuable (monetarily), vs. whether it is beautiful, vs. whether it is *legal*, etc, etc. The things you seem to be talking about honestly seem much more personal, they come down to how *you* learn, how you use the resources here, and what you end up doing with them. I suggest that you do what you think is right, I suspect you will do the right thing and anyone whose resources you make use of will probably be more than satisfied with that.

- Oshyan

[Kadri]

Good said Oshyan !

[TheBadger]

Hey,

It seems at least from this thread that there is a consensus. So I'll go with that.

The questions I asked were not rhetorical, I was really asking.
Anyway, I was not looking for rules, just a consensus.

Thanks guys.