Population placement issue

Started by Kevin F, May 18, 2007, 06:36:32 AM

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Kevin F

Hi Oshyan, My reply to your fix response seems to have gone off in a new direction! and my remaining questions left unanswered. Sorry about that. I enclose my response and the original .tdg.
Still confused,
regards
Kevin:



Thanks for the reply Oshyan and all the detailed information BUT.....
applying the changes in your fixed file to my original file still doesn't work even with the population Y value set to 0.
Your reply raises a number of issues:
First fake stones - if they are applied as a displacement effect over existing terrain, why do I get totally different results when the displacement in the terrain is turned off/on and when the strata layer is turned off/on? i.e. in what order are effects carried out in TG2?
because I didn't apply any displacement "afterward" - did I? I though the stones were place on the displaced terrain?

Second, the populator was set to -100 on the Y axis because the terrain was randomly generated and slightly displaced to a mainly negative level completely by chance. I generated the terrain, found the pov I wanted and set the populator to a Y value "above" the average for the ground in view, which was -145 meters.
If this is because   "..... it's due in part to your relatively high noise variation in your base fractal terrain. It's not necessary to change this but it helps to be aware of this problem at least."  Is a noise variation of 2 relatively high? relative to what? and why is it a problem?

Third, I totally agree with your comments on my strata settings, but to be honest I was simply experimenting with different values. It just so happens that with these extreme values I produced fake stone that were amazing! (see sample pic).

Finally, as for "to look at the granularity of the normal being used to compute object placement for your scene and consider whether some finer-scale displacement really needs to be accounted for".
I don't understand any of this! Huh



Regards and thanks for your help.
Kevin.

Oshyan

Hi Kevin,

Sorry for the delay. At this point, given what appeared to be a fix on my end for the problem with the previously attached .tgd, I'm not sure what more I can do. I'll try to answer your questions below but I'm not sure it will help much.

Fake Stones are applied as a displacement function over the existing terrain. While logically you would expect that if they were applied last their shape should not change even if the underlying terrain does, that misses some of how this particular shader works. Fake Stones internally uses a 3d voronoi noise variant which keys off of the computed normal of the terrain (normally provided by the Compute Terrain) to generate the stones. It's done this way so that the stones maintain a proper shape and don't get stretched on steep parts of the terrain.

Generally speaking displacement is additive as well so your Fake Stones will be affected by anything above or below them as they are fundamentally a displacement function. Only a population of rock objects would avoid that, but unfortunately those are currently broken. ;)

You shouldn't need to set a vertical offset for a population. As long as it's properly referencing the planet and terrain that it's sitting on it should work. There are some issues with this, but generally speaking it should work and any offset you apply will be a kludge and unlikely to work well, or at least in many situations.

A Noise Variation of 2 actually isn't particularly high. It's the default for a Power Fractal terrain in fact. But here in combination with your other settings it seems to make significant negative altitudes. Which is fine, it's just that they tend to be a little more problematic to deal with. You could try applying an overall positive offset to the terrain displacement to remedy this if you like - the terrain shape will stay the same, it will just rise a couple hundred meters.

You're right that your settings are producing some really cool rocks. :)

Finally, what I was basically saying is look at the size of the features on your terrain and use that to determine if you need to change the scale at which the normal is computed in Compute Terrain. It's just something you'll have to experiment with I think.

I know that's probably all not much more help, but I hope you can get it sorted out. Some of these things will continue to improve with time and I believe the final release of TG2 should be easier for you to work with in situations like this. In the meantime keep experimenting and reading and asking questions. :)

- Oshyan

Kevin F

Hi Oshyan,
Thanks for the reply. That was actually quite useful.
Regards
Kevin.