Photoreal ~ what makes it?

Started by cyphyr, March 06, 2013, 06:49:35 PM

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cyphyr

I'd like to start a discussion about what makes an image photo-real. If you look on-line at those "Can you spot the real from CGI" tests most of them are very clean, brightly lit studio shots. There is not much out door imagery unless you get into film work, set extensions, props and characters. I would not necessarily call these photo-real but rather photo matched. The CGI landscape or prop has been graded, textured and lit to match the film print (and visa versa).

So what is it that makes an image photo-real. To simply dismiss it as "looking like a photo" is missing a point. "Real" photo's are manipulated either in camera or photoshop according to the desires and skill of the artist.

Are there tricks we can employ to fool the eye, to make the viewer "abandon disbelief", to make the viewer want to believe this is "real"?

LOTS of detail, great subtle lighting, accurate scale and models all spring to mind. Real world textures also.

All ideas, comments and suggestions very welcome.

Cheers

Richard
www.richardfraservfx.com
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
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Ryzen 9 5950X OC@4Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 4:13)

Oshyan

I frankly think it is so highly dependent on context/content, that it's hard to have a useful conversation about it in a general sense. If you want to try to distill it down into one single thing, or an overall *type of work* (or aspect of imagery) that has the *biggest* influence (even if this influence is only, say 15%, with all other elements sharing e.g. 5-10% each), my personal opinion is: grading and coloration. In some ways this is a bit of a cop-out, because there are plenty of scenarios where you cannot take just any (CG) image and adjust it to look real, however if you tend toward a particular, one might say "cinematic", post-processed look, I think you can make an overall improvement in the *average perceived realism* of almost any image. As I say, this is probably only 15% of the problem, where other elements like detail, lighting accuracy, sufficient randomness, etc. could be 5-10% each, so it's not the "biggest" by much, and other elements *combined* surely have a bigger influence. So again I'm not sure how useful it is to try to draw any conclusions from. But I feel pretty confident that you can make an incredibly detailed, realistically random image with fully correct lighting but, if it's not either tuned by the render engine, or in post processing, for a "realistic look", all the assets and render accuracy in the world won't make it look "right".

Lighting/shadow (two sides to the same coin) would, I think, be a close 2nd in terms of overall influence on perceived realism. One could argue the cope of this, i.e. is translucency a lighting component, a surface component, a combination of the two...

All I know for sure is I've seen quite a few images where an incredibly simple, even very sparse scene, but with great, realistic lighting, and suitably "graded", just screamed "real" to me, despite the lack of detail, the lack of randomness, the lack of reality cues besides color and shading. Perhaps this is best exemplified by the ability for some animation to be perceived as highly realistic, or for a "realistic style" to be still possible even in a minimalist artistic expression. But then one could argue that goes right back to the context issue, if you're depicting a scene that in reality is very simple, sparse, i.e. an unusually (but still realistically) uncomplicated scene that exists in the real world (let's say a sterile office building), then perhaps that makes photorealism easier to achieve *in that specific context*. But does that necessarily say anything about achieving realism of, say, a human figure, or a landscape? Perhaps not. Perhaps, as I began by saying, context is key to meaningful conversation.

So, if you're talking specifically in the landscape context...

- Oshyan

FrankB


cyphyr

#3
Really! Huh?? :o

Oh well ... never mind.

Richard
www.richardfraservfx.com
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
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Ryzen 9 5950X OC@4Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 4:13)

Oshyan

I didn't mean to kill discussion, I guess I just think we should define the bounds of what we're talking about here. If you want to consider the entire spectrum of "what makes an image look real", that seems like an almost impossibly broad topic. If we can focus more on landscapes in particular, I'd say that helps narrow it down quite a bit. In which case I'd say the single biggest contributing factor is probably atmosphere. :D

- Oshyan

cyphyr

Ok, I'll try to kick it off again :)

Obviously I am talking in a landscape context (and before anybody jumps on me I know my "roadside" contest image is not strictly "photo-real") but that's kind of my point. What is it about certain imagery that makes us "believe". Oshyan has covered so good points and yes context is important. Lighting, shadow and detail are of course vital. Would the landscape CGI out of Promethius, SWATH (cue Chris:) ), or Oz (check the trailer) be considered photo-real. I would say yes to all. They are realistic in that "fit" in the context they are intended for.

The photo's most off us take on holiday are for the most part pretty dull (well mine are), in the old days of 35mil film photography most of the shots taken were pretty worthless, we'd be lucky (or highly skilled) to get 10% decent shots! With digital photography at least we can preview, and delete when necessary, so the good percentage has increased and so by a vast amount has the volume.

When it comes to creating photo real CGI shots do we aim for the rather dull snapshot or try to emulate the great photographers who would try to capture the essence of a scene with drama, contrast and camera views none of which we would expect to experience as part of our daily lives. One of my favourite landscape photographers, Ansel Adams creates imagery that is highly evocative, beautifully framed and very dramatic but if you visited those places, yes you could recognise them but his shots they don't look like the original, the imagery has become idealised versions/interpretations of reality. If I were to take a photo of Yosemite Valley it would not look like the one that Ansel famously took. But which would be "photo real"? Of course they both would but I would prefer the one with drama to hang on my wall.

So atmosphere is possibly the most important element and I would have to agree.

What aspects of atmosphere help  the most? Any tricks of the trade that the pro's use? I'm not necessarily talking in pure Terragen terms here but hopefully any thing tricks/info/knoledge can be applied to TG and other apps.

I would like to hear other's point of view on this.

:)

Cheers

Richard
www.richardfraservfx.com
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
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Ryzen 9 5950X OC@4Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 4:13)

Oshyan

Just for the record, I was referring specifically to "atmosphere" as a component of the scene construction and rendering process (i.e. the atmosphere and cloud nodes in TG, or more generally, haze, red decay, atmospheric scattering, etc.). I think that adds a ton to realism. Even in real life when I see a super clear day, it looks "unreal". Haze is a huge part of how we judge scale and distance, especially when we're talking about landscape-type distances. Even in small, localized scenes, there is often noticeable haze present, that adds to the feel of a scene, of an image. Without this, I think realism is virtually impossible. Whereas you can have a very, very simple scene, a barren mountain top for example, covered in snow, no plant models needed, very few - if any - rocks, simple texturing, etc. and it can still look highly realistic, as long as there is that realistic sense of "atmosphere". So I really feel it's one of the primary keys in getting a scene to look realistic.

- Oshyan

FrankB

Quote from: cyphyr on March 06, 2013, 07:56:12 PM
Really! Huh?? :o

Oh well ... never mind.

Richard

For the record: I was making a joke.  ;D


FrankB

I have found the answer to your question, Richard, at least for myself, this seems to be it:

1) The rendered elements need to look like the real thing
2) The lighting needs to be perfectly realistic
3) In the post work, you HAVE to add the imperfections of the camera lens.

The last point is so important, but mostly people don't go there. Why to most renders look fake? And I don't mean TG specifically, I mean generally most CG images look like CG. With ones that don't, the artist has added the imperfections of a camera in post:
- chromatic aberration
- DOF
- vignette
- sharpening
- edge blur
- ....

Cheers
Frank


Oshyan

Mmm, very good article Frank! Very relevant.

- Oshyan

cyphyr

#11
Ah yes I had forgot the camera imperfections, chromatic aberration in particular. DOF tends to often be over done making the scene look too small, like a model. For both to be effective higher resolution images need to be rendered in the first place. (as large as possible!)
I do however think there is a huge viewer element. I remember a documentary about "Pathe News" where they showed the sinking of a war ship in WWII. It was just a small model filmed in a tank but the audience left the theatre in shock believing they had seen the real thing. I think I remember hearing similar stories about "Jaws", a film who's SFX are by to days standards laughable (You can see the shark deflating at the end!) The reason I say this is that to some extent *all* the FX guys had to do was exceed audience expectations.
Cheers
Richard
ps: apologies for my "sense of humor-ectomony"
pps: great article
www.richardfraservfx.com
https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
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Ryzen 9 5950X OC@4Ghz, 64Gb (TG4 benchmark 4:13)

FrankB

I think it's necessary to add DOF to a render. Every lens, even my eye lens, puts a focus somewhere, so in my image, I will absolutely add a small amount of DOF, ever so slightly, though, but notable on a second look. Perhaps I will take a reference shot here at our street, and see how much DOF is going to be visible with the camera near the ground, but focused on the distance or some element in the mid ground, should I add such an element to the scene.


Kadri

#13

Guys you are talking about different things and not strictly about realism as we see our world i know.
Like on the 48 FPS  Hobbit thread realism isn't DOF or the look we see in this or that film stock.
What you talk in the last posts is more about mimicking the look of some kind of Photo shooting techniques or film stock etc.
When Spielberg filmed  "Saving Private Ryan" in the same way as some old WW2 documentaries
it looked realistic as in that documentaries but not necessary realistic as it really should have looked.
I hate DOF and chromatic aberration for example.
When you look at your hand very near your face your hand is in focus
and when you look at the background your eyes quickly focus on that part and you see it clearly too.
But on an image or movie that focused part is static.
You can look on the background (that is out of focus) but that background stays out of focus so much you look.
Is this realistic?
It has its part in storytelling etc. but realistic look is sometimes very subjective.
Giving people the look they expect and not what it should be too probably.
And that is what i hate about DOF and chromatic aberration...
In that aspect photo realism is using the same methods as in that or that camera or in that or that film stock look etc.
If you want to make a image that is shot like with a micro setup then using DOF and chromatic aberration is normal but not necessarily realistic .
Some users here are very good on building landscapes but the lighting -atmosphere they use is dull or painterly.
But some have such a atmosphere combination that their images look like photos so much you can see fractals etc too here or there.
Oshyan puts it better then me.

Tangled-Universe

If you want to make photo-real images with TG2 then you have to take TG2's strengths and weaknesses into consideration.
Then it's matter of trying to make the best use of the strengths and to avoid situations which TG2 can't cope very well with.

In regard to that, in my opinion, TG2's strengths are:
1) atmospheric model, especially the atmosphere node/shader itself.
Picking the 'right' atmosphere density and haze settings can make or break the sense of scale and will determine how saturation of shading and shadow detail in terrain will look like.
2) procedural displacements for adding detail and shading/texturing to your terrain.
This requires no explanation of course, because this is why we all love TG ;)
There are some aspects though which you should be careful with, later more about that in the TG's weaknesses part.

All in all these strengths offer a lot, especially if you want to make barren scenes without vegetation, like deserts and the like.

Also imho, TG2's weaknesses are:
1) object rendering -> objects nearby look too CG. Mostly due to lack of some advanced kind of shading.
A simple example is Silva3D plants' example renders on their site which are rendered with Vray.
If you reproduce such a close-up in TG2, it's always quite inferior.
Mostly textures don't come out as crisp and clean and also (self)shadows aren't that good looking.

You can go through quite some lengths of getting them to look better by hugely increasing AA together with cubic b-spline filter and also upping the resolution. If you don't up the resolution then the self-shadowing is too dominant and you can't get nicely detailed lighting.
Which leads to the second weak point...

2) GI -> to continue with the objects. In the distance GI is uncapable of correctly sampling the vegetation. This leads to too dark vegetation as if the renderer decides to treat the whole object as one shading result, thereby destroying all the detail.

Similar results and issues are with displaced terrain where GI gives unexpected results over distance.

These 2 phenomena I describe can be quite clearly observed in my DeviantArt gallery:
http://tangled-universe.deviantart.com/gallery/

It's difficult to say though whether it's GI which is undersampling or atmosphere or some other process in the renderer which pre-calculates occlusion/surfaces.
There's no documentation about the renderer which gives a detailed explanation how it step by step treats the scene so that you can devise a detailed and especially direct approach on tackling these issues.

So far the only solution is to increase rendersize considerably to ensure that the renderer 'sees' all the geometry of the vegetation and thus applies correct lighting and shading to it.
Increasing GI to 6 along with 512 atmo samples didn't improve it, so my suspicions is that there's some pre-filtering/calculations of surfaces which is limiting.
However, like I said before it's difficult to say without knowing more about the renderer.

Other issues are in-terrain-shadow objects which tend to look plain wrong as soon as you're dealing with either quite displaced surfaces or denser atmospheres than default. Not to speak about a combination of the two. Avoid that at all cost, you'll never get it to look photo-real.

3) noise sampling -> especially in surface shaders the renderer has parameterizations skewed towards high frequency noises which it at AA-stage can't eliminate.
If you design a scene with crop renders of your foreground surface and add subtle brighter speckles to your surface's base then they will look nice.
However, over distance these subtle speckles become dominant and overrule the darker surface base.


So all in all a lot of aspects are involved in considering something photoreal and a lot of that is esthetic and highly specific for each situation and scene, as Oshyan layed out.

However, I think that besides that there are also some technical aspects involved, which I summed up above, which you can keep in mind to stay on the 'photo real road' ;)