PRISM

[Tangled-Universe]

Anyone here read "Der Spiegel"?

Personally, I think its a little funny. Europe's left worked so hard to help get Obama elected, and this kind of stuff is your reward.

Bush jr. claimed he installed it 8 years ago. Was in the news today here.
I doubt he even did that.
However, that's irrelevant.

More likely to me the NSA started it and reported it to Bush who had no other choice than to sign it off.
Organisations like NSA, CIA are totally independant of politics.
Whoever the president is, these organisations sail their own course and the presidents can only watch.
The president has no power, but is only the "face" of the leader to the outside world.

These states (NSA, CIA etc.) within the states (United States) are totally autonomous, disconnected from politics and constitional laws.
That's a fact.
Simply because PRISM breaks many constitutional and other laws and presidents sing the song along.

It is anything but hard to see how these organisations are positioned above politics, the president, the law.
They serve other parties and that's where it touches with Efflux sometimes insane stories, but there's definitely a core of plausibility in it.

The fact that today's news reported that Microsoft was in it since 2007, first, and many others followed later in return for access to all the data.
This data contains information on (foreign) competitors so they can use this secretly acquired information to their own good by manipulating stock markets, speculations, adjusting roadmaps etc. etc.
This interplay between NSA and these big corporations is a summum of synergy. Both parties flourish under these collaborations.
NSA gets massive amounts of personal information through the corporations and in return the corporations can get their hands on competitors IP, plans, weak points etc.
So it's also a macro-economical advantage to have such a system and definitely explains why for example Intel always seems to be two steps ahead of AMD and others.
You can google for this example.

So if you're keen on a totalitary fascistic state then PRISM is your ultimate wet dream.

The PRISM disclosure makes it once again crystal clear that there's a corporate government above the visible government (US president and the entire circus surrounding it) who are actually pulling the strings and make the calls.

Im not saying that Romney would have been any different. Im saying thats my point. Frankly, I don't know who I disliked more in the election.
But at least with Romney, we pretty much knew what we would be getting. hmmmm. Actually, Obama turned out to be nearly exactly what his detractors said he would be.

In these matters it makes no difference whether there's a democrat or republican as president.
Nor will it make any difference of what to expect.
All these presidents are equally thrustworthy when it comes to these matters, simply because they don't make the calls.

[TheBadger]

Bush jr. claimed he installed it 8 years ago. Was in the news today here.
I doubt he even did that.
However, that's irrelevant.

No, not irrelevant. If its true than its a valid point, I think. But the difference of course would be that everyone in Europe hated "W". Obama was supposed to be the messiah. Obama ran on the promise that he was not going to allow anything like PRISM. He said so him self. Please do not let your self make exceptions or excuses for anyone. We cannot fight the past, only what it here in front of us now. Obama promised what he promised. He broke his word. I say he lied.
As for Bush, as I said. The US has the largest prison system in the world. There is room for everyone involved in these treasons.

On the dates, I don't know. The last report I heard on the topic was that "PRISM" started in the last year of the Bush term. And that Obama fully implemented it. But there were other programs already fully up and running. Its not clear to me which program does what. Just that PRISM is the one that comes into our homes and steals our privet moments/conversations/data, regardless of if we are the "enemy" or not.

But that is another huge part of the problem. There are too many of these damn programs, and no one seems to be accountable.

T-U,
I dont agree or disagree with what your saying about who is really in charge. I think the fact that we cannot be sure anymore is its self the real point. This has to change.

The fact that we have "secret" interpretations of laws, is the same as having secret laws. Not to be confused with secret"s" laws.
If the government has implemented and is enforcing secret laws, this is treason. It is tantamount to a coup d'état. And if so, then all this talk of revolution everywhere becomes very real and very frightening. I think that for many out there, it is not just talk anymore.

Now in an attempt to be fair, I want to share something I just found on the net. But I warn you, it is terrible, and will make any normal person sick!

While surfing around following links to where ever they lead, as I like to do, I found two links in particular that absolutely horrified me.
I saw last night real video of Syrian rebels cutting off the heads of a Catholic priest, and two other people who were with the priest. Simply because they were not Muslim.
They used kitchen knives like you would find in a farm house where the farmer prepares his own meat. There were many people there, all cheering for the killing. And this is why I could care less about the Syrian revolution. It is not, and never was going to be, a revolution for the better.

I won't post the link to the video, but I will post the link to the story. From there you can view the video if you need to.
I think its important to remember what all these wars and spy programs are about, as we continue to debate them.

WARNING WARNING WARNING
This link will lead to another link. It is not appropriate for younger viewers. Its deeply and profoundly disturbing. It is real. Please do not watch it if you cannot handle seeing things like this. And frankly no one should be able too. I'm sick from it.
I am not a Catholic.
http://catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=51537
The link is near the bottom. please do not view it if, based on the description, you know you cannot handle it. Please do not shoot the messenger.
The link shows us who are enemy really is. The only question is, can we fight them without fighting our selves? Can we win the wars without loosing our selves? PRISM makes me afraid the answer is no. And this is whats got me so upset and afraid. I am not afraid of dying in some war or attack. I am afraid of dying for the wrong reasons. Of being stabbed in the back.


I will  tell you, that after seeing this video, that I would absolutely hate all Muslims, if not for whats happening in Egypt and Turkey right now. If there were not so many young people in those two countries fighting islamic fundamentalism, I would hate them all. I would want Islam wiped from the earth forever.
I can also say I'm really not friendly to the ideas of 911 "truthers". I think what happened on 911 was just what we saw, and were told it was. Mass murder by Islamic fundamentalists.
I think the "911 truth" movement is the same as the terrorists, is the same as PRISM. Its just all a bunch of shit from hell, here to break everything worth loving.

Now lastly, I just want to say, that Americans killing Muslim children with bombs meant for enemy fighters is horrific. I do not defend it. But I cannot except that intent does not mater. Intent does mater.
I do not believe that it is the intent of my country to kill children when it happens. But it is the intent and goal of Muslim fundamentalists to kill everyone.

The one exception I am aware of, is the boy we were talking about on page one of this thread. I believe that was a deliberate murder of a child for reasons unknown. The boy was a Muslim, and I truly do want justice for him.

Im sorry to have brought that video to the discussion. But I believe it is fundamental to the discussion we, and everyone else on the planet, are having now.

Huxley in his book "brave new world" took the Augustinian track, that Truth is best hidden in a sea of facts. A bottomless pit of meaningless information. We are truly in danger now, and from every side. Everyone is fighting with facts, but no one cares what the truth is.
Something will have to give soon. Or it really is going to fall apart. And unlike some, I do not see any hope at all, that whatever replaces what we have now (system) will be better. History shows us clearly, that it nearly always gets worse. The french revolution did not make the french free, only insane. Communism did not liberate the serfs, only brought them a worse cage. Post Modernism did set us free form Modernism, but then it tricked us into thinking we were gods.

There is not much hope.

[efflux]

This is the biggest problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRkFDcX_72c

There are several videos by this guy of this sort of thing. He should not be able to find anyone that can't reply to those questions properly and in connection with who this real enemy was and still is. It's no accident those Americans are so ignorant. The Tavistock Institute in Britain has been working on that since the 50s. Eventually, as those Americans keep blindly supporting the US governments actions, the US will use nuclear weapons. This will happen when they realise they have no hope miltarily of taking on the rest of the world when Russia and China have had enough. After the US uses nuclear weapons there will be an immediate full scale nuclear response to the US. That's the plan or at least this is how crisis engineering of the public works. This is more Tavistock stuff.  You constantly create shock and crisis within a population. There is no stability and sense of future. Notice all the endless armageddon, dystopian zombie type movies. This is all manufuctured straight out of physocological warfare manuals. It's been going on since the 60s. The absolute reigning experts at this kind of mind control are the British. That's why Americans don't know that Britain is still an Empire. The British Crown Corporation owns vast areas of Canada and Austalia just for starters. They are worth hundreds of trillions. It's a huge Empire. They just don't use that word anymore. Tactics had to change after World War Two because Roosevelt had it in for the Brtish Empire and they were in trouble until their lackery Truman was put in and he let off the nukes in Japan - not necessary to win that war but absolutely necessary to create the phsycological terror of high tech weapons of mass detruction. This was designed as part of the phsycological attack and cultural destruction of America that fired up big time in the 60s. Endles air raid drills in schools etc. Exactly in combination with the killing of the Kennedys and Martin Luther King. This along with a number of other factors created the disasterous Baby Boomer generation and their now even worse offspring. Stuff like  this was all written about by H G Wells a hundred years ago. The now almost complete usurpaton of Europe and end of those nation states is old hat. Planned before Hitler was even known about. Sadly the masters of control are way ahead of the people.

[efflux]

Every US president is authorised by the Council On Foreign Relations. This is an arm of the Royal Institute Of International Affairs. They have a European equivalent now as well. This is Why Obama will do anything Cameron tells him to do and why Bush did the same with Blair.

All America has to do is reinstate Glass Stegall and go back to it's constitutional credit system. That would smash the Empire apart. That is exactly what the American Revolution was about and it's why those Americans in that video have been brainwashed to total ignorance because otherwise the Empire would instantly financially implode.

[TheBadger]

This is the biggest problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRkFDcX_72c

OK, I'll give you that it is pretty sad. And yes, stuff like that is at the heart of the problem.

But to be fair, I have been in front of a camera unexpectedly. And I can tell you that for me I didn't like the feeling. An ambush interview is not really a fair way to gage someones knowledge of any subject. All that guy was doing is the old 1812 joke... When was the war of 1812? Ummm, ahhhh, 1492?

Its a good rhetorical video, but I think it is not a legitimate argument.

But to be fair again, your still right. Everyone knows our education system is completely broken. test scores and such show no doubt. American history is not even a focus anymore. Its very very sad.

[efflux]

These days nothing is taught to children about such things as constitution etc. It's the same in the UK. There used to be lessons of similar such stuff. Of course this is entirely deliberate. They also don't teach anything about money because if they did, the system would be entirely different.

History is another thing. Possibly the most important. The lack of peoples knowledge about any history is mindboggling.

[TheBadger]

Last post on this from me, due to the fact that nothing is going to get fixed, and no one really gives a shit. Not really anyway, not here in the US.
But, here it goes...

On page one of this thread I said that the boy who was killed was not with his father. I read this weekend that he was in fact with his father. The article also claims the boy was simpatico with his dad. I am not sure which of the versions of the story are true. But I don't care. CHILDREN SHOULD NOT BE TARGETED IN WAR!!!
A special forces fast team should have been sent in to capture the child! He should have been brought back and deprogramed. Im not really concerned about the old man. He was a traitor and deserved what he got. I am very concerned about the moral cowards in the white house though.

Anyway, since its not going to end for at least 100 years. And no one will do what is necessary to win the war now, or end the spy program and protect liberty.
Please, everyone, lube up! Because we are all going to get fucked now. And its going to hurt.

[attachimg=1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mPZlysCAm0 from 2011. They say it them selves, and then they still cover for him. Its completely insane.

[Upon Infinity]

Is it a positive development?

Do you really think that this stuff is not going to be used against you? Why? because your not important enough?

This all goes back to something Julian Assange said; that the information is all collected, but not viewed, until someone becomes "interesting" to the government.  It is at that point, that they will pull the information out, going back years, and use all of it to either silence a dissenter, or to otherwise render inert a potential political liability.  So, in the real sense, most people are not important enough to be spied upon, but the system is already in place to take to take advantage of collected information to be used against them should they ever become "important" or a nuisance.

[masonspappy]

...information is all collected, but not viewed, until someone becomes "interesting" to the government... 

...So, in the real sense, most people are not important enough to be spied upon...

Who decides something is "interesting" or that certain people are "important"?  If a chief investigator in the NSA makes decisions like that about someone with a foreign-sounding name, well, that's one thing.  But what about a trusted computer operator in the NSA Data Center in Utah who's worried his wife is unfaithful?  Or the administrative assistant in the same center with elevated system privileges who's got an axe to grind with her next door neighbor?   Or the bored NSA investigator who really wants to know about sex habits of the rich and famous?

And I won't even get started on politicians who grant themselves access to these facilities to get dirt on their political opponents.

A common argument is that, even if every call in the US was archived, it would be impossible to go back and listen to each one.  That would be technically true if humans were listening to those calls.  But calls are stored as audio files which super-computers can scan in a fraction of a second, looking for key words and phrases. Given the massive capabilities of today's mainframe computers, it's possible to scan 10,000 hours of calls in less than a minute. 

There's a huge potential for mischief here

[AP]

The best thing for anyone to do, speaking for mostly the US as I do not know much about other countries is join a Free State Project or some type of Agorist Community, otherwise you will fall along with the system. I am leaving soon but I will not say here openly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMJ3gYsnOHM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9ZvwPmjJu4

[efflux]

The whole point here is that you're innocent until proven guilty. That's a mainstay right in the US and all British Commonwealth countries. Maybe so in other countries as well but it's not EU policy. There has to be probable cause for anybody to investigate you or collect data. In the UK and in fact in the EU, you can demand any info that is kept about you be revealed. This is absolute law and if any info connected with you whatsoever is kept with no due cause that you are doing anything unlawful then it has to be scrapped (at least this part is definitely the case in the UK). That's the theory anyway. Interestingly in the US there is no such law (although obviously it doesn't quite comply with the US constitution) so Google etc can collect anything they want and they refuse to comply with EU law because they say they work outside EU Jurisdiction. Well then we should stop using Google. I use the mail still but I might ditch it. I don't see them refusing to comply with Chinese laws.  We  can actually function normally without using Google or these big internet corporations. There are alternatives. The US government can keep secret information about anyone including outside the US.

Politicians say if you've nothing to hide then what's the problem. That's what all tyrannies say. If they have nothing to hide then why can't we see everything they are doing?

The UK government is using the argument that there are laws in place to secure what is happening to data. Laws they create. The whole point is that the law doesn't allow any data to be stored unless probable cause is present. This is the fundamental protection.

[efflux]

About those videos.

The one with the guy who pulls the gun. Tax collectors are being armed and moving towards literally swat teaming your house and making inventory of all your property value. Very similar to what happened to Jews in Nazi Germans.

The other one about the march in Britain. What the media never mentioned at the time was that the march was largely about the gun issue not just fox hunting. Keep watching the BBC to not have a clue about anything. First thing in the UK is that the BBC should be shut down. It's a total propoganda machine. They have even covered up massive paedophilia. This by the way, is common British establishment tactics to blackmail people. Jimmy Saville? Best mates with Margaret Thatcher and Prince Charles. Ted Heath (ex British prime minister) was a paedophile. Jimmy Saville supplied these people with children. Ted Heath got us into the EU in the first place via the usual lies.

Most people have no concept of the total evil of these people.

[efflux]

It is now apparently a crime to stand up for the US contitution. Of course Washington DC has nothing to do with America. It's basicaly Empire property that's why Kokesh is commiting sedition. There is no United States Of America anymore. That's long gone. The aim is to break America down into balkanised regions. This is of course once again classic British Empire policy and it's how they started off WW1:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/activist-adam-kokesh-reportedly-arrested-in-herndon/2013/07/10/73dbc8c2-e943-11e2-8f22-de4bd2a2bd39_story.html

[yossam]

Seems like it never ends...................


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/11/snowden_leak_shows_microsoft_added_outlookencryption_backdoor_for_feds/

[efflux]

I use Linux and in fact this is one of the reasons. Microsoft are a dire company. The Gates family are eugeniscists. That's why they fit into the stablishment perfectly. Also, IBM handled the Nazi's collecting of info on jews etc. Don't you get the picture here? Why is Windows so unsecure? I've never had a virsus in probably 5 years. No need to security software on Linux. It's too hard to break into a Linux system. Only hole is what you're doing in the browser but you can choose what you're doing there.