PRISM

Started by TheBadger, June 07, 2013, 03:15:15 PM

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FrankB

Quote from: cyphyr on June 10, 2013, 06:23:27 AM
I don't think Obama is doing anything that any other president (or leader of any country) at any other time would have done given the resources. Its just that he has greater resources than ANY leader ever before. The odd thing is that we actually get to know something at all about it which is something that possibly less left leaning leaderships would not allow.

Tor?

I think I can agree to this post 100%. Couldn't say it any better.

I am not trying to defend anyone according to my own political view, but I don't think Obama made it worse. This was a long way coming, starting with the patriot act, or maybe even earlier.

What the process in the US to reverse a law? Is there some court that opposition can call upon, which may review if a law is in line with the constitution or not, and thus potentially roll back a law that has passed congress earlier?

And TOR is an anonymizer for your web traffic. All traffic goes over the TOR network, so that a website will never know what the IP is that their packets are going to be sent to eventually... or where the request for packets actually came from. It's useless though for pages where you have to login, I think.

Regards
Frank


TheBadger

#32
QuoteThe odd thing is that we actually get to know something at all about it which is something that possibly less left leaning leaderships would not allow.

But thats not true, Richard. The Obama administration has more vigorously prosecuted leakers and whistleblowers than any other president in American history. Obama has brought more criminal charges than all other presidents combined.

QuoteThe odd thing is that we actually get to know something at all about it

He is being betrayed.
There is a non violent revolt in progress within the intelligence and military. His administration has thrown people in the field, under the bus for political reasons so many times that he is personally widely hated. Everything that is happening is so unprecedented (as far as I can tell) in American History, that these events are just unbelievable. For active duty military and intelligence officers to speak out as they are, directly agains a sitting president, its frankly scary.
For an example, active duty Navy SEALS have called Obama and his administration liars. Its absolutely fascinating.
These are people who have dedicated their lives to the "chain of command" To obedience and discipline. For them to step out of line, and speak out of turn, is very interesting.

QuoteI'm starting to see your views on an armed population. Although if it ever came to it you can bet the Government will have better weapons than us.
If it ever really came to that it would completely break my heart. I cannot imagine a worse conclusion.
But for conversations sake, lets pretend it will come to that.
Who is Going to do the fighting? THe idea that the marines are going to come into my neighborhood and kill me and my neighbors is hard to comprehend. They are like me, from neighborhoods just like mine.

But I have personally witnessed police officers break the law. And do things like lie, and steal. We have all seen police beat the hell out of people. And we all have seen them do murder, via news and youtube video.
THe police and the militarization of Law enforcement is what scares me.

I do not break the law or do anything to take or hurt other people. And yet whenever I have to talk to a cop, I worry about my safety and freedom. And for damn good reason too.

We cannot fight the military. No one can stand up against them. Even when they loose they win... If its a question of body counts.

But cops are not solders. Cops only follow orders. They are drones mostly. I do not intend to disrespect all Police and law enforcement. I know most are hard working and dependable honest people.
But all you have to do is turn on the news to see which arm of government is committing acts of violence against free people. When The governments of the west use force against their own people in the modern world. Do you see them using Solders or Cops?
This is a hypothetical conversation, just to be clear.

Tor: https://www.torproject.org
Make sure you understand it before you use it.
You can use it on the surface net like you are on now, but be carful what you get involved with on the "darknet". I promise you, you will see things there that you cannot un-see.

And just to be absolutely clear. Make sure you understand how it works before you use it. Read through the entire site use wikipedia to find subjects to research properly. Wiki is at least good at providing correct terms. I distrust everything else.. I still use it too though.

And then Sir Richard, to you I say welcome to the war of the mind.  ;D ;) Hope you do better than I have.

@Frank
Thanks Frank, Ill look at that now.
It has been eaten.

TheBadger

QuoteThe "whistle blower" speaks: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/09/politics/nsa-leak-identity/index.html?sr=fbmainintl

If what the man in that video is saying is true, he is a hero.
I hope someone will protect him.
Its politically earth shattering! If all true! But who can be sure of anything when Intelligence becomes politics?

I tell you this though, and Ill bet im right. The occupy movement never had a chance, it was BS, and the people doing it were silly. But PRISM stuff has a real chance of starting a revolt, both violent and non violent. Obama is the worst manager I have ever seen in my life.

It has been eaten.

cyphyr

QuoteBut thats not true, Richard. The Obama administration has more vigorously prosecuted leakers and whistle blowers than any other president in American history. Obama has brought more criminal charges than all other presidents combined.

I think that's just a sign of the times. Difficult to correlate but there's more interconnectivity, more information so more gets leaked out. More information is leaked because there is more information in the first place, greater technological ability and method, and more people in a position to do it. Nixon was famously doing it and only famous because he got caught. Both our governments routinely lie to us and have done since gord knows how long, remember the radiation tests, the bio weapon tests beck in the 50's and 60's. Our governments have both recently come out and admitted that it happened, that they experimented on our own troupes and citizenry. Of course that sort of thing couldn't happen now ... yeah right!

Maybe your surprise and shock is because you are told you come from "The Land of the Free", that you have a constitution, a "Bill of Rights", "Deceleration of Independence" etc. Pardon my ignorance here and I don't mean to be rude but I hope you'll get my point. These pieces of paper have served successive administrations to provide the illusion (and a very palpable one at that) of freedom. We in the UK and I think in many parts of Europe do not have these (France may be an exception). I am a "Subject of Her Britannic Majesty", not a citizen, I have obligations, not rights and this is instilled from birth. So from my perspective all governments and administrations are my overlord. I can winge and complain about as much as I like but it makes no difference, I was never told I was free.

QuoteIf it ever really came to that it would completely break my heart. I cannot imagine a worse conclusion.
Agree completely.
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TheBadger

I cannot argue with what your saying now. Only haggle over the finer points. I think you are right/correct. But I think it is in the finer points that we will get to the bottom of it.

QuoteNixon was famously doing it and only famous because he got caught

But Nixon did not kill American citizens. Obama has killed, or caused the killing of several.
Watergate did not end in a gunfight that left children dead. He did not use the IRS to terrify privet citizens. (Hard to imagine that the IRS needs any help.)

In the end, Nixon was a strange man who made bad choices. And those choices destroyed his Presidency.
Obama's choices have killed his own people, destroyed the economic future of millions, and virtually guaranteed that this generation will not prosper as all other generations before us. Ours is the first generation in American history to do less well than the generation that proceeded. And Obama-care is a total disaster. Many will die and be hurled into deeper poverty because of it.

Some will say it was bad before Obama, and would be bad without him. Yes, thats true. But now it is even worse! And yes I know that there are many more people to share responsibility. But Obama is in charge, he is also the leader of his party. Nothing gets done without the President.

QuoteMaybe your surprise and shock is because you are told you come from "The Land of the Free", that you have a constitution, a "Bill of Rights", "Deceleration of Independence" etc. Pardon my ignorance here and I don't mean to be rude but I hope you'll get my point. These pieces of paper have served successive administrations to provide the illusion (and a very palpable one at that) of freedom. We in the UK and I think in many parts of Europe do not have these (France may be an exception). I am a "Subject of Her Britannic Majesty", not a citizen, I have obligations, not rights and this is instilled from birth. So from my perspective all governments and administrations are my overlord. I can winge and complain about as much as I like but it makes no difference, I was never told I was free.

I am not naive (just a bad writer). I know about those things you mention, enough of it anyway. And I know about even worse things my government has done in the past.

But here is the point then.
All of those things were illegal under the constitution. Though laws were written to say that the Government had power and right to do as they wish, under the constitution those laws are invalid.
Under the constitution murder is murder, no mater the political justification.

So then according to what you wrote. While you have no legal recourse against crimes committed against your people, by your government because you are the property of the state. The constitution guarantees the American people the legal framework to take our leaders by the hair and drag them to the electric chair, or just prison maybe... After a trial of course.
Because we ARE free, regardless if our Government agrees or not. This is the 2nd amendment, the right to keep and bear arms. For this purpose we have the right to have weapons. And not the kind you use for sport, but the kind you use to kill men. Many men.

So thats the real difference. The constitution makes revolution legal. And gives us an orderly way to revolt, and to do justice to our government. It assures that the government can never ask, "by what right do the people rise up?". And then use that question to suppress us.
We have all seen this in the 3rd world, where a government is overthrown only to return because the people had no grounds to throw them down. Then we watch as the returned powers punish the people who revolted.

The constitution guarantees among honest men, that the people are free, and have all authority.
That men are dishonest is why all of the things we are talking about are done in secret. Nixon knew what he was doing was wrong, that is why he hid it.
Obama knows likewise, that is why he is prosecuting whistleblowers. He is protecting himself, not us.

The American people have endured a lot, for a long time! We have trusted and we have waited. But now I wonder if patience has run out? I am curious to see if everyone is as angry as I feel about PRISIM and all the other stuff we have been talking about.


About what you said of England.
That was the most interesting part of what you wrote, to me. I have never heard a Brit put it so bluntly before (we are all protective of our countries, and we should be) But I really appreciate what you said. I think you are speaking the truth. And I am trying to do the same.

But to tell you the truth I did not know what you said. I thought that the Magna Carta gave you similar protections as the constitution? I know that the constitution is in part inspired and informed by the Magna Carta.

Not to long ago, american children were required to study English and French history. Because of our unique relationship; War of independence, louisiana purchase, the country of haiti, world wars, and so on. But not anymore. I only know what I do know because Im curious on my own.
To steal from Steven King, "we have forgotten the faces of our fathers", here
It has been eaten.

TheBadger

#36
QuoteI am not trying to defend anyone according to my own political view, but I don't think Obama made it worse. This was a long way coming, starting with the patriot act, or maybe even earlier.

PRISM began in the last year of the Bush Presidency. It was the Obama administration who fully implemented it. Bush did a lot wrong too. But as I eluded to, they can all share a cell together. We can pack em' in like clowns in a telephone booth if you want.

personally though, I think what Bush did was heavily influenced by breathing in the stink of the world trade center rubble. I think Obama has other reasons. But I wont defend bush or anyone else. I want liberty not just a political battering ram.
It has been eaten.

TheBadger

#37
QuoteWhat the process in the US to reverse a law? Is there some court that opposition can call upon, which may review if a law is in line with the constitution or not, and thus potentially roll back a law that has passed congress earlier?

Yes many. But only if we know about it. No one can sue, or go to the supreme court if no one knows they have been abused.

QuoteIt's useless though for pages where you have to login, I think

Only if you are logging in under you real identity. There are ways to use it with script and cookies, and to download (not just view) data. You need to use Tor in a "sandbox". It is complex and I am no authority. That is why I said to be carful and research before you use it.  People need to be very carful when using it. If you unmask your self, or expose data locations you can cause trouble for volunteers in the network.

There are also versions of Tor that are more secure than the main system: https://tails.boum.org but there are things you have to know about it to use that correctly too. There are less people using tails, so less people to hide amongst.

In the end it hides you amongst millions of others. You are not invisible, but you cannot be distinguished. Unless you use the soft incorrectly and unmask your self. But even then, it is difficult to track you. If you are unmasked they have to be looking for you anyway.

It is fascinating stuff. I don't have any criminal interests, but I still like learning about Tor. The DarkNet is like the Matrix only with bad VFX, and no robots.
It has been eaten.

efflux

Quote from: cyphyr on June 10, 2013, 09:13:51 AM

Maybe your surprise and shock is because you are told you come from "The Land of the Free", that you have a constitution, a "Bill of Rights", "Deceleration of Independence" etc. Pardon my ignorance here and I don't mean to be rude but I hope you'll get my point. These pieces of paper have served successive administrations to provide the illusion (and a very palpable one at that) of freedom. We in the UK and I think in many parts of Europe do not have these (France may be an exception). I am a "Subject of Her Britannic Majesty", not a citizen, I have obligations, not rights and this is instilled from birth. So from my perspective all governments and administrations are my overlord. I can winge and complain about as much as I like but it makes no difference, I was never told I was free.

We do have a Bill Of Rights. It has some odd stuff like being pro protestant but it is still in fact law.

The problem is that people just bow down to everything. This ensures the Stasi state is just around the corner.

In the UK people do things like buy newspapers and pay for a TV licence to be fed a pack of lies. The TV licence thing is simply incredible. I've never paid a TV licernce in my life. There is not even a law that says you have to.

I saw Alex Jones on UK TV ranting his stuff about Bilberberg but what he was saying was true. The utter idiots on the show were laughing at him. They seem to believe this is somehow effective and that absolutely nobody will actually think that maybe Alex Jones is right. Why the hell people pay money to support this media is beyond me. UK Column is a British newspaper which has facts. Tiny operation though since a majority of the population are too brain dead to even save themselves. Having said that, I'm not even sure the UK is anywhere the worst.

cyphyr

I wondered when the "Freeman of the Land" stuff would come up. On cue, thankyou:)
Alex Jones, John Harris et al. I've met and spoken with John.
err yah.

Much as their ideas are laudable I still consider the freeman movement dangerous and irresponsible. The fact remains that NO case has ever been won by a Freeman under their interpretation of common law. Why? Because they are fighting their cases before judges who do not hold their ideas as valid. Irrespective of weather this is right or not the legal system as stands has the power to imprison us and to deny our freedoms. The guys with the bigger sticks always win. Get over it. Sorry to be blunt but I have seen friends try to stand up to the state believing that Common Law was on their side. The judge disagreed and they lost. They even tried to impeach the judge, their sentence was increased for contempt.

I completely agree with your stance on the media, it is utterly controlled and manipulated to the benefit of those in power. It is the tool that allows so called democracies to wield so much power by allowing them to say that they have the majority behind their views. Mob rule led by the gutter press. Views which have been propagated by the media owned by the politicians and those behind them. Fight them if you must but you will loose and probably painfully.

The very idea that "law" stands above "power" is ludicrous, laudable again and what a great idea if only it were true, but ludicrous nonetheless. It is a great ideal, something to aspire to but we are a very long way from.

I wish it were different but it's not. The only way I see to have freedom is to become the "grey man", effectively invisible, unimportant and uninteresting. Stay beneath their radar and live your life in a way that impacts them not at all.. By the way I've not paid for a TV licence in 10 plus years. But then I neither own or watch a TV, I really have better stuff to do.

:)

Sorry for my bluntness on this.
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https://www.facebook.com/RichardFraserVFX/
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efflux

Common law is why all British Commonwealth countries and the US had freedoms that other counties didn't have. If you believe you can go along to get along without those protections and survive you need to think again. You will not be alive or if you are you will be so poor that it won't be worth living. The guys with the bigger sticks as you say want a world population of under one billion. This kind of genocide is always what Oligarchs do. No conspiracy theories about this, it's their agenda. People in the west have got used to having many freedoms and somehow think it can't all disappear. That there aren't psychopaths out there ready to murder billions of people.  Accept things such as licenses to do stuff and you'll find you'll need a licence to even have children in the end which I assure you will be one of things brought in down the road. What you say is exactly what the majority of people said in America before the war of independance. Some people wouldn't go along with the slavery. Fortunately enough to overthrow it which freed a large part of the world and not just America.

I don't believe that these people doing the freeman on the land have all the answers but they are certainly not dangerous and irresponsible. Responsibility is exactly what they trying to show. They are exposing how the law has become corrupted. I have respect for those people taking those risks. Most people have no idea how this operates. That's how the criminals in charge get away with it.

TheBadger

who are the "Freeman of the Land" and what do they want?
It has been eaten.

TheBadger

Richard.
I think I know what you mean by the "grey man". After thinking on it a while, I think the grey man is the guy that has to dig the graves, dump the bodies, and then takes a bullet in the back of the head.
The grey man is the first body that is found in a mass grave, because he was the last to die.

I thought too, that obscurity was safety for a long time. But PRISM proves otherwise.
No man is safe. Ever.
It has been eaten.

cyphyr

 Nicely (but harshly) put.
So what to do? We are plainly as a species incapable of peaceful coexistance. Cirtainly not with the pressure on resources and population we have today. Recent history (and not so recent) bares this out.
Some will always bully their way to a controling position and we will be back to where we started.
Bring down one tyrant and another replaces him ... Egypt and the Arab spring.
I mentioned the Russian revolution in another thread. The "true" communist ideals lasted about 8 weeks. Then a civil war was engineered by the white Tzarist Russians in league with western powers. The only timt British and American  solders have faught on Russian soil. They lost but the version of comunism left behind was just another tyranical system. Situation normal.
I dont know what the solution is, suggestions on a postcard to my bunker please ;
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TheBadger

#44
lol Your asking me? If I knew I would be to busy to post here. I was hoping you guys would tell me!

Actually, I was going to appeal to all of you Europeans and Brits for help.
This will sound grandiose, and over the top. But I really believe that PRISIM is proof of a terrible danger.

My government needs to explain its self. It needs to find a way to prove the rightness of what its doing without compromising security. Or if it cannot, it must compromise security for the sake of truth, and the preservation of liberty. 

Currently there is some uproar in Europe and England over PRISM. I ask you please to join in and raise your voices in anyway you can, in person and in every forum you visit. Facebook the hell out of this. Not unlike what was done to E-on! SCREAM AND RAVE! And spread the word however and wherever you can. Tell everyone you know that, there is a darkness descended on the bright and shining city. Tell them their cousins in America are under attack from with-in. Tell them we need some help!

There will soon be a meeting in Europe including the 27 nations of the Union. They will discuss PRSIM and other related subjects. Demand answers! Make them demand answers! And let the American people see that you are doing it, do it for us! Help wake my people up! We have grown fat and lazy and stupid. But our hearts are still the biggest in the world. If we can wake up, we will do what is right!

I hate terrorism, and I have no love for Islam, I support the fight against Islamic tyranny . But I would rather live like an Israeli under constant threat, than live securely like a Russian under Stalin. Whatever the truth is, PRISM and everything like it is to much power in the hands of too few men. There are too many secrets, and too few honest leaders. And no civilian oversight that we should trust, the leaker is proof of that.

Our enemies hate us. But their most powerful weapon against us is suicide. Think about that. Yet they have done to America what The Soviets could not. They have made us our own worst enemy.

Please stand up for us, so that we can stand up for you. Remember that we have stood up for you, as you know that we would again.
Appeal to your friends and Neighbors. Tell them to write to the corporations that likely participated in the spying. Tell them you do not forgive and you will not forget.
Tell them all that trust is dead. Now its time to show proof! And do not except promises of future actions, but demand action now.

Do these things and do not stop until we get what we want. Security and liberty, in the privacy of our papers and our persons.
Fight! Or die in your own hearts, and be ashamed in the sight of your children as every politician should be.

Its a brave new world! Not a new world order.

It has been eaten.