Its Awesome! Its free! Updated

Started by TheBadger, June 09, 2013, 12:31:08 am

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June 21, 2013, 10:39:25 pm #15 Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 07:59:12 am by TheBadger
So just use wings! If you like it, and it works for you than stick with it.

On sculpting soft. I do like Mudbox. Z-brush does not require that you have a modeler. But unless you only want to sculpt and make turntables, than you need another program. And in a workflow pipeline, making the low polly first in maya, is better IMO than having to re-topo everything after your done sculpting in Z.

I definitely prefer the low polly-sculpt-"send to" workflow to a z-brush workflow. No need to buy "topogun" or similar than. In linear terms, I don't think Z is very fun. I don't like ever having to go backwards in a workflow, if you know what I mean.
It has been eaten.


June 22, 2013, 12:13:36 pm #16 Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 12:33:51 pm by efflux
Hi Michael.

I'm working in Modo at the moment. It's not actually crap as a modeler but I'm seeing why I love Wings now. Wings is perfect for the topic of this thread in my opinion. The thing with Wings that makes it creative is the priority of workflow. First thing is navigation. Well obviously most apps prioritise that to be the easiest and most common task. Modo doesn't. You have crazy double key shortcuts to navigate the view as default. Next thing Wings prioritises its selections. This is the most interesting bit that makes it different. Spacebar drops the selection. It's not a click in the view like Modo. As you change selection in Wings from say verts to edges, Wings transforms the selection from verts to edges and then to polys etc. You always have a selection unless you deliberately drop it with spacebar. I really like that. There is no key command to add more selection to the polys, verts or whatever, you just click on another or click again to remove. It's all mouse driven in the workflow until you need to activate a tool. That can also be moused but you learn the shortcuts or make them which is also easy in Wings. In fact I think as default it has no commands for tools. You create them but this is what you end up doing. I think this sums up the correct workflow any app should have. Confinguring shortcuts in Modo is hell to do. You have masses of selection processes, random, similar, number of edges, length of edges etc etc etc. Last in Wings is the tools in it's system or priority. In Modo tools seem to be prioritised in ease of use with a mass of tools to do complex things instead of a simpler set of tools. What this creates is a workflow where in Wings you can play around very quickly. In Modo and other apps you have to think through what you are doing very carefully. If you're modeling a car or something then you can do that very precisely in Modo. However, the lack of just fun in messing around is why I have no folders of models from Modo but my Wings folder is full of experiments that got interesting basic shapes to use later.

Modo can be reconfigured though. I'm looking into that but it's a nightmare. Blender is much easier to reconfigure.

Both Wings and Modo or other modeling apps require a learning curve. Wings can not be simply learnt really quickly because a lot of the features are hidden but when you do learn it you start flying. It's not a toy but it does look that way at first.

Modo is different in other areas. Modifier tools, animation, matetials, particles, dynamics etc. All these other tools do seem to provide for a lot of experimentation. You can also drive functions with each other as far as I can see. TG2 once again shows it's crippling limits. As far as I can tell it's possible to hook up numerous parameters of different fractals to control each other in Modo. I think it's hooked into channels for animation but have yet to learn it.


June 22, 2013, 12:37:44 pm #17 Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 12:54:21 pm by efflux
The thing is, If you're working with polys it's best to just see it as that. Flat unsubdivied faces. You can see the smoothed result and subdivide in Wings but to me polys are polys. If you're working properly, it will looked fine when smoothed out. Modo tries to be inbetween this and sculpting. If I want to very organically sculpt something I want to forget about polys and sort that out after. Then I'll use 3D Coat, Blender dynamic topology sculpting or something.

I think Wings would fit into any workflow where you want to very quickly map out polys. You can also sculpt the polys in Wings. There is a sculpt tool and a tweak tool. Even if you aren't that concerned about topology, although obviously you can do that right if you want Then you can take this model to your sculpting app. After that you could retopologise. It's also a good way to build a model then take to Modo where any problems with the polys can be quickly spotted and repaired. Wings smoothed look in the view isn't very good. Wings is also a good app to assign all your materials to certain polys if needs be. The UV tools seem quite good as well because it has the same methods of manipulation as you modeling.

Wings is like a free Silo but much better in my opinion.


June 22, 2013, 01:02:17 pm #18 Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:08:53 pm by efflux
As for ZBrush. I've tried it. I spent some time in it a while back. I think it's great strength is a great realtime view with sculpting tools that really respond well and have nice effect. There are also cool ways to map out your model with zspheres. I think it's advanced in this respect since the last time I tried. I'm a bit biased because I like things to be Linux. I think 3D Coat has a much more user friendly UI than ZBrush but you need to have a powerful graphics card. Not needing that is a major boon for ZBrush. I also tried Mudbox. That didn't completely inspire me and seemed to be a bit limited in what you can do with it. It's also Autodesk BS. Not that cheap. It's more similar to 3D Coat is feel but with less features.

Ome thing I haven't really worked with much is the dynamic topology sculpting in Blender. What I really like about that is actually seeing the topology. As you sculpt more faces get added where needed for detail. This has a byproduct very cool look of faceted faces where there is less detail. It actually looks really cool without smoothing.


June 22, 2013, 01:23:46 pm #19 Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:29:55 pm by efflux
What I'm after, is something to model in and another app that can handle the rest as well as peripherary apps and the 2D stuff I use but the main app has to be good enough for landscape type stuff as well as Terragen. I think Modo now beats Vue. I don't like Vue and Modo's renderer is much better. Check out some of the images in the link below. I'm really not sure why so many people are messing with things like woodland scenes in Terragen. That's not it's strength. Most other 3D apps beat Terragen to dust for that. If there is distance with terrain showing hills and things like clouds and such like then yes, that's one of Terragens strengths. There is also Terragen skies in this link. Modo can now handle really big poly counts. I found this out when moving terrain from Blender to Modo. Modo handled big terrains as if you could have loaded several times the size with ease whereas Blender was struggling. When you get into instancing in Modo, it beats others apps easily and the real time rendering window handles this insanely well so you can see what you are doing:


I'm going off topic here but I think this is important. Look here:

Look here as well. In particular the image in the bottom left. That seems to have been done by using drivers in Modo to create Mojoworld type forms. I say Mojoworld because Terragen is too limited in this area of various fractal forms and driving them with other functions.

People using these other apps will come to TG2 then abandon it due to hellish learning curve. That means people here need to go in the other direction. TG2 is isolated out of these pipelines.


June 22, 2013, 02:02:02 pm #21 Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 02:06:00 pm by efflux

Here's another Blender test with Cycles. It lacks proper render time microdisplacement. That's why the trees look flat but everything else is there. I'm not happy about the now limits on the procedurals and also some terrain limitations. That's why I'm concentrating on Modo. Some Blender things aren't nearly as well executed as they could be so it's hard to judge but Blender is very good at some things now.

Blender is beginning to knock out some of the bigger apps for a lot of smaller scale purposes.


Dead line is set for submissions to the buildings pack: July 20th

In the images you will see in the link above, only two models were used. So you can begin to se the possibilities when using 100 models.

As I understand it, the release date for the pack will be a bit later then the submission date. VCP has to QC all the submissions and make sure they are all at the same scale and such. I suspect there will be no trouble with submitting a day late or something. Its not a contest. So I don't think the rules are anything more than a way to organize the effort.

Imagine a Terragen shot from high altitude. A camera flying over a massive city looking straight down like a satellite. An aircraft comes into frame (maybe its a drone? :/ ). T3 quality render, Terragen Volumetric lighting, bet it would look good.
It has been eaten.


I've not got any buildings but I'm learning how to smash things apart. Not much to do that with yet though.

Those renders look really cool.

I've learnt how to replicate things in various ways in Modo but I found what appears to be a bug in the replicators micro poly subdivision. Despite this, it's amazing. Modo can replicate on vaste scale so as in that render you linked to, Modo could replicate that city to insane scales of distane for miles upon miles.

I'll add a still image from a small Blender animation test on the thread where I was on about Blender. Wings and Blender are my modellers. I'll create the objects in those but Modo will actually handle the replications, dynamics, particles etc. Terragen, well I'm not sure how that fits in but I know ways to possibly do that.


^^ as to how terragen fits into a bigger workflow, I think Terragen 3 will fix a lot of the issues, Efflux. From what I can understand, and what I saw in the release review, it should be a lot easier to composite for one.
It has been eaten.


I see awesome ways of compositing stuff. Even for animation, especially with Modo except I'll have to use Blender compositor. Modo is now Foundry which does Nuke. There will be integration coming for Modo and Nuke but Nuke is a fortune. Hopefull Modo doesn't end up this way as well but they keep raising the price. Modo is moving to full blown 3D app now though. I can upgrade quite cheap considered as a whole since I didn't upgrade from way back but upgrade is the same price. Foundry may well change that I suspect. I'm not upgrading until I know there are no problems. I found one already and I think it's a bug. Blender compositor is actually pretty good from what I can tell for basic things. All that stuff is a long way off here though.


@efflux - Over the years, you've been an inspiration to not give up.  Thanks for posting what you do.  It's appreciated and has proven a source of hope to me to find my niche.  Thanks!!
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?


I'd rather be posting work. I'm sick of going through all these apps just to find problems. A problem with Modo now. It might get solved but I'm having to send them the file. I just want apps that work.

I've been through this with audio, eventually threw in the towel and took it mostly back to hardware and chose Apple Logic for the DAW because most of the software is a disaster. I'm not alone either. Hardware is taking over again over the software.


It has been eaten.


Did you submit, Michael? I didn't have time  :(