TG2 tötet jedes bischen Kreativität !!

Started by Highflyers, June 03, 2007, 12:07:12 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

rcallicotte

AGREED!!!     ;D

Quote from: fmtoffolo on June 03, 2007, 05:53:49 PM
I think the current interface is very good and the node structure easy to learn.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Will

but it does take time to learn and if English is not your first language it can be understandably difficult.

Regards,

Will
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

Highflyers

#17
Hi there, as Will's translation is a bit clumsy (sorry, Will - Übersetzungsprogramm benutzt?), here's what Highflyers actually wanted to point out:

Quote from: Will on June 03, 2007, 12:17:35 PM
rough translation:

Who is meant then with "High user"?  Mathematicians with Dr. and Prof. titles? 

The workflow remains entirely on the stretch.  I thought I'd actually be a quiet and balanced person.  Until now.. as I smashed my keyboard against the wall.  Lucky me, I still had another old one. 

For each little aspect, one needs a tutorial.  And I am certainly no beginner, I worked with Vue, Bryce etc. for more than five years.

I dont' know who came up with this rubbish-like interface, but I consider it to be totally impossible to work creatively with it.  How then, one must permanently go through all kinds of mathematical formulas and etc . 

Being honest, the only thing that excites is me at TG2 is only the reality degree of the Render-Engine, the remaining rest is totally useless. 

I do not believe that I am the only one who wishes that theRender-Engine of TG2 would be included in Vue.  That would be just the perfect thing, the surface of Vue with the Render-Engine of TG2. 

So, that had to be said as my frustration level is on the MAX. 

P.s.:  IMO, I also don't think that there will be any further changes concerning the Interface in future releases ... why I think so? Well, the foundation stone has already  been set.
(Translated by Highflyer's girlfriend who wasn't there the day he freaked out to write his opinion down in English ;-)

Highflyers

#18
Quote from: Will on June 04, 2007, 04:41:45 PM
but it does take time to learn and if English is not your first language it can be understandably difficult.

Regards,

Will

Hi, Will,
this is Highflyer's girlfriend again - English is not the main problem as I am able to understand most things after studying it for a couple of years...what caused some headache was e.g. the fact that there wasn't just one high and one low value for creating the surface but another one that puzzled me (damn, I don't remember exactly when this occurred, I am a total beginner of this!)...there we go, it was the following: Lead-in scale, smallest scale and feature scale!! Now, who can tell me what is supposed to be what? I thought that there would be one number bigger than the other if you have to define a "from - to" (don't know how to say it with my very limited knowledge of programs like TG2 and Vue), but what the heck is the third factor all about?
Anyone who can explain me?

Highflyers

#19
Quote from: fmtoffolo on June 03, 2007, 05:53:49 PM
TG2 is a complex software. I don't mean complex to use, but complex in what it does.
Its like some people want to fly a jet plane with a stick and an "start" button. it just doesn't work like that. Have anyone seen the shader structure in Maya? or even in 3d max...

I think the current interface is very good and the node structure easy to learn.

Some people just want to import something from poser, move some sliders and hit render and get a photo.
HA! It doesn't work like that, not if you want a software that you expect to be in studios pipelines. If you make it that simple, it wont be flexible and it will be less powerful.

Terragen v0.9 was a much simpler thing. It was more of a touch this, move that and hit render. Of course great pieces could be made, but for example, having to resample images to get a nice render... that its a waste of time if you need to render lots of frames.

I think TG2 is on the right path to become a great piece of software. Of course in my opinion it needs a lot of work to get better than vue (the atmo model migh be less realistic and all that ...but it was used in feature films like pirates and it looked amazing)

Ok, but IMO the interface is nice, clear and understandable.
bye


Don't you think that it is somewhat arrogant to say that if you just don't understand some of TG2's aspects, it is supposed to be that way? NOT being born with English as my first language, does that mean that I have to be left out of this just because I just cannot tell the difference between feature scale, lead-in scale and smallest scale , respectively which one of them is the one that stands for the highest value? And getting along with Bryce and Vue doesn't mean that all I can understand is how Poser works...somewhat offensive!

I wonder how good YOU would be if you had to translate a program you really want to work with into your language and then finding out that the tutorial just isn't explaining it well enough!

And, by the way, flying an airplane is not exactly the ability to compare with!
There is something between "move this, move that and hit render" and the kind of work that I am talking about...sure TG2 is complex in what it does (otherwise, I wouldn't be interested in using it!), but it IS definitely also complex to use, which is mainly because there's no possible step without a tutorial. Complexity isn't a sign for the value of a program...

Oshyan

Your confusion on these terms is understandable as their purpose is not immediately obvious, especially in the context of how other programs work. The fact that TG2 doesn't work like other programs do doesn't necessarily make it bad or wrong - there are reasons for everything, of course. Primarily the focus has been on increased flexibility and power but admittedly this is sometimes at the expense of ease of use. Having a way to set 3 aspects of a noise function - minimum, maximum, and "average" scale is more powerful than just setting min and max or average alone, but it does require explanation.

I do have to ask if you've read the documentation already provided, in PDF form on the Technology Preview download page and here in the forums, because these settings and many more are fully described. The PDF only covers basic information - the forum documentation here is more complete:
http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?board=12.0;sort=subject

In particular the Surface Mapping section covers these specific noise settings:
http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=22

Perhaps the issue is that the documentation is in English? We do plan to provide some basic documentation soon in German and we hope to be able to provide full documentation in multiple languages by the time of the final release.

- Oshyan

Highflyers

Quote from: Oshyan on June 06, 2007, 01:36:01 PM
Your confusion on these terms is understandable as their purpose is not immediately obvious, especially in the context of how other programs work. The fact that TG2 doesn't work like other programs do doesn't necessarily make it bad or wrong - there are reasons for everything, of course. Primarily the focus has been on increased flexibility and power but admittedly this is sometimes at the expense of ease of use. Having a way to set 3 aspects of a noise function - minimum, maximum, and "average" scale is more powerful than just setting min and max or average alone, but it does require explanation.

I do have to ask if you've read the documentation already provided, in PDF form on the Technology Preview download page and here in the forums, because these settings and many more are fully described. The PDF only covers basic information - the forum documentation here is more complete:
http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?board=12.0;sort=subject

In particular the Surface Mapping section covers these specific noise settings:
http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=22

Perhaps the issue is that the documentation is in English? We do plan to provide some basic documentation soon in German and we hope to be able to provide full documentation in multiple languages by the time of the final release.

- Oshyan

Hi,
no, the problem is not English (at least I consider it to be that way as it was my main subject at University), but the fact that the tutorial just didn't make it all clear to me (and THAT is because I am the translating one and my partner is the one with the knowledge of rendering machines...) made me asking myself why I just don't get the point! I never had such problems with Technical English before, as I worked as a secretary in the Automotive business as well as for architects; with lead-in / feature / smallest scale being expressions for highest / lowest and average, it gets much clearer to me, thanks!

Oshyan

This is essentially what the documentation already says, although it doesn't necessarily use those specific alternative terms (highest/lowest/average):

From the Surface Mapping area of the documentation:
QuoteNow let’s look at each of the various settings tabs. The Scale tab is selected by default and you will find several controls for scale here. Scale basically controls the overall size and distribution of the patterns in a surface layer. These patterns are generated by a fractal noise shader which is internal and in the case of the Base Colours node. The Feature Scale setting determines the overall average scale of features in the shader and this will have the most noticeable immediate effect on scale. The Lead-in Scale is essentially the size of the largest features that will be present in the shader output and naturally Smallest Scale then determines the size of the smallest features. All of these are measured in meters, the default unit of measurement in Terragen 2.

The range between the Lead-in Scale and Smallest Scale will determine the number of “octaves” of noise that are generated. This value can be changed directly if you have an idea of a specific detail range you want, but generally it’s easiest to adjust the other Scale values. Note however that the more octaves each of your shader nodes are generating, the longer your scene will take to render. The effect is not significant for only a few shader nodes but it can quickly add up, especially when displacement is involved.

Did you read that part of the documentation but found it unclear?

- Oshyan

Harvey Birdman

#23
I think HighFlyer's girlfriend is right about that bit of terminology. I know it's explained in the documentation, but the terms currently used are not intuitively understood (at least not by me). And when common English terms offer a technically adequate and much more intuitive alternative, why not use the common terms instead? Simple usability modifications like that may go a long way towards mollifying some of the complaints re the UI. (I'm not saying they're all justified. After some initial hiccups I've been pretty happy with it, but I think this one is valid.)

<edit>
Beg your pardon for piling on, Oshyan. I'm not trying to beat up on you, really.  :)
</edit>

Oshyan

I'm not arguing the validity of the terms. Although naming has always been given consideration and there is somewhat of an overall naming scheme in place, the names have largely been chosen for their appropriateness to the underlying functionality, not necessarily as analogues to existing terms or functions in other applications. In this particular case these terms may be specific simply because my explanations are *approximate* - the actual terms of "Lead-in scale", etc. are likely more accurate than "maximum scale" and the like. So whether we should name them accurately or with "familiar" names is not necessarily an easy decision, but it's something we'll be considering heavily before the final release of course, and it is very likely that things will be more intuitively named and cohesive in the final product. That is not to say the names will necessarily match up with other applications, but we'll certainly do that where appropriate for the sake of consistency and ease of migration.

For now my fundamental point was that despite the terms being potentially confusing and unconventional, they *are* adequately explained in the existing documentation. As we are all aware this is a Technology Preview and the main intent was not to preview the UI in anything near a polished, final state, but rather to give people an idea of the fundamental working concepts (network-based) and the capabilities of the renderer itself. Beyond that almost everything is subject to change and will almost certainly do so.

But to reiterate, long story short, I found those names confusing too and they will be reevaluated for appropriateness before the final release, along with all other setting names. For now I simply suggest referencing the documentation for any confusing terms.

- Oshyan

Harvey Birdman

I can claim to be totally unaffected by the terminology of competing products. If ignorance is bliss, I'm ecstatic.

;D

Will

So basically all this is about the lead-in scale, ect parts of the fractal (at least on the main question)? and so far the answer is that "Lead-in scale" is roughly equivalent to Maximum and "smallest scale" is roughly that of minimum and that feature scale is some form of multiplier? I just want to get this all strait so the Highflyer's question can be answered.

Regards,

Will
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

Oshyan

Highflyer's question has been answered, as far as I know. Your Lead-in and Smallest Scale definitions are essentially correct. however Feature scale is roughly equivalent to "average scale", *not* a multiplier. I'm not sure where that impression came from but if it's a lack of clarity in something I've said in this thread or in the documentation please do let me know.

- Oshyan

Will

no, no it was just my assumption from past experience, cool so everything is cleared up Oshyan. thanks :)

Regards,

Will
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

fmtoffolo

Quote from: Highflyers on June 06, 2007, 01:25:47 PM
Quote from: fmtoffolo on June 03, 2007, 05:53:49 PM
TG2 is a complex software. I don't mean complex to use, but complex in what it does.
Its like some people want to fly a jet plane with a stick and an "start" button. it just doesn't work like that. Have anyone seen the shader structure in Maya? or even in 3d max...

I think the current interface is very good and the node structure easy to learn.

Some people just want to import something from poser, move some sliders and hit render and get a photo.
HA! It doesn't work like that, not if you want a software that you expect to be in studios pipelines. If you make it that simple, it wont be flexible and it will be less powerful.

Terragen v0.9 was a much simpler thing. It was more of a touch this, move that and hit render. Of course great pieces could be made, but for example, having to resample images to get a nice render... that its a waste of time if you need to render lots of frames.

I think TG2 is on the right path to become a great piece of software. Of course in my opinion it needs a lot of work to get better than vue (the atmo model migh be less realistic and all that ...but it was used in feature films like pirates and it looked amazing)

Ok, but IMO the interface is nice, clear and understandable.
bye


Don't you think that it is somewhat arrogant to say that if you just don't understand some of TG2's aspects, it is supposed to be that way? NOT being born with English as my first language, does that mean that I have to be left out of this just because I just cannot tell the difference between feature scale, lead-in scale and smallest scale , respectively which one of them is the one that stands for the highest value? And getting along with Bryce and Vue doesn't mean that all I can understand is how Poser works...somewhat offensive!

I wonder how good YOU would be if you had to translate a program you really want to work with into your language and then finding out that the tutorial just isn't explaining it well enough!

And, by the way, flying an airplane is not exactly the ability to compare with!
There is something between "move this, move that and hit render" and the kind of work that I am talking about...sure TG2 is complex in what it does (otherwise, I wouldn't be interested in using it!), but it IS definitely also complex to use, which is mainly because there's no possible step without a tutorial. Complexity isn't a sign for the value of a program...

Not that i want to continue with this, but i live in argentina, and i speak spanish. English is not my first language...
And the rest...well, its a matter of perspective. I don't know about your case, but there a lot of people that just buy models, import them , move some things around and hit render. I'm not saying that is wrong. They usually make very nice renders. For example, most artist that do this can be found in renderosity, while the artist that generally start from scratch are in cgtalk.
And about the complexity of the soft...any powerfull soft is complex. Mainly because it has to be very versatile. Try doing a high poly model in max or maya without reading any documentation,,,gets kind of hard.


My Terragenn site
www.cgworlds.com.ar