Above the Clouds

Started by archonforest, September 06, 2013, 01:12:36 PM

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archonforest

What do u guys think about this picture?
Info for those who does not have a fast computer... It was done on a 2.1Ghz duo AMD CPU with 2Gb ram only. Rendering time was 3h 8min. Details 2 and AA 6.
Dell T5500 with Dual Hexa Xeon CPU 3Ghz, 32Gb ram, GTX 1080
Amiga 1200 8Mb ram, 8Gb ssd

TheBadger

It has been eaten.

archonforest

Guess this means the picture kinda real :D
Dell T5500 with Dual Hexa Xeon CPU 3Ghz, 32Gb ram, GTX 1080
Amiga 1200 8Mb ram, 8Gb ssd

Oshyan

Detail 2? Do you mean the main Detail slider in the Render node?? If so, that setting is way too high! You never need to go over 1, and seldom over 0.8 in fact.

But it's a nice picture. :)

- Oshyan

choronr


archonforest

Thanx :D
What is wrong with detail 2?
Hmm...then how some guys creating those super HD looking pictures? They just crank up the resolution?
Dell T5500 with Dual Hexa Xeon CPU 3Ghz, 32Gb ram, GTX 1080
Amiga 1200 8Mb ram, 8Gb ssd

Oshyan

#6
Detail 2 takes a LOT longer to render and adds virtually no discernable detail to the end result (output image). As you can see, the slider only goes up to 0.8, there's a reason for this. Terragen allows you to manually set almost any crazy value you want for every setting, this is part of its power and flexibility, but that doesn't mean that doing so will have any benefit, and in fact often times going outside the slider ranges (the generally recommended values) will produce "bad" results (it seldom crashes, but often increases render time without benefit, for example).

Cranking up the detail is really not the way to get "super HD looking pictures". Just like buying an expensive, high megapixel count digital camera won't give you great-looking photos! The *biggest* contributor to the quality of the final images is the quality and detail of the *scene construction*. Putting lots of care and attention into creating detailed terrains with lots of fine displacement (but balanced with smoothness, not *just* "fine displacement" everywhere), making subtly varied and complex surface maps, finely tuning your cloud shapes, density, etc. and your atmosphere settings, using high quality plant models and adjusting population variation and other settings carefully, etc, etc. Increasing quality only increases the "accuracy" with which Terragen evaluates what *you* put into the scene. You need to put a good amount of time and work into any scene to create a quality end result.

To give you a clear example of how this works, think about this: you can load up the default scene and turn detail to 10 and AA to 32 and render it, and it will still look plain, boring, ugly even; turning up detail only makes *what is already there* look better. At the same time, if you load up one of the nice example scenes included with TG3 and render it at, say, 0.25 detail, AA3, it still looks pretty good! Yes, it could look better with higher detail, but *most* of the sense of realism and quality comes from the scene construction itself, not the detail settings. Examples are attached. :D

First, you have the base scene, rendered at defaults, 0.5 detail, AA3, render time was a mere 49 seconds. Then the same base scene at Detail 2, AA16, render time was 17 minutes, 51 seconds! As you can see there is virtually no difference, certainly nothing to justify the huge increase in render time (flipping back and forth I actually prefer the lower detail version in some respects, though again the difference is minor, and certainly subjective). Finally, we have a scene included in the TG3 content bundle called "example_high_complexity_scene.tgd", rendered at detail 0.25, AA3 (purposely below the defaults to emphasize that scene quality matters more than detail levels). Render time for this was only 1 minute, 11 seconds, but while you certainly *notice* that it's at a lower detail, I think it's clear that the scene is of high quality, and simply turning up quality moderately, even to 0.5 detail and AA4 shows that the end result improves markedly, which is shown in the next image, render time was 2 minutes, 49 seconds. Rendering it at detail 1 took nearly 10 minutes and looked only marginally different, much less of an improvement than with 0.25 to 0.5. This is obviously an extreme example since the default scene is very simple, but I think it actually illustrates the point very well when you look at the comparison scene at low detail. Essentially, you get diminishing returns with higher and higher detail levels, and we really don't recommend above 0.8.

All that being said, it's also possible that the "super HD quality" you're talking about is simply the result of some post processing work that has little to do with Terragen. I find this is often true in photography especially, where someone with the same camera, lens, and shooting position can get an entirely different (and much better) result in post processing because they know how to use their processing tools better. Many people use HDR/tonemapping on Terragen images (especially EXR output), or other "light tuning" type of operations, levels adjustments, sharpening, etc.

I would suggest actually that you post some links to images that have this quality you're trying to achieve. It's probably a mix of baseline scene construction quality and correct (not necessarily super high!) detail/quality settings (including AA, soft shadows, etc.), but hopefully it will help us point you in the right direction for achieving the results you want. But I must reiterate that there are no real shortcuts, it will inevitably take you time and work to improve your scenes to the high level of quality you probably want. There is a lot to learn.

- Oshyan

archonforest

Thanx a lot for the detailed answer. It all makes sense...I work with Photoshop and it is the same there. For best results u have to fine tune lots of things. I am not looking for shortcuts, I was just curious...I just watched the winner pictures of the 2013 NWDA contest and I am still shocked about the amazing quality!!...but of crs those guys are PROs ;)
See the attached picture. This is my best one so far...it looks good but...far away from what I would like to see...but this for sure goes back to the lack of knowledge I have now...
Just for example this picture is pretty sharp and pro:
http://www.cgscenery.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/streetstreetnwda1final.jpg
Dell T5500 with Dual Hexa Xeon CPU 3Ghz, 32Gb ram, GTX 1080
Amiga 1200 8Mb ram, 8Gb ssd

Oshyan

Yep, I would guess your detail levels in the image you created are not too different from the example you gave from the NWDA contest. The "quality" is more in scene setup and construction, things like lighting, cloud shapes, texturing, camera framing, etc.


By the way I've updated the above post with some examples to show why simply increasing detail doesn't really get the results you want. :)

- Oshyan

archonforest

Yes, I can see what u mean on the complex picture. The increased details did not helped that picture..wow...I would say it somehow even made it worst to some degree.
Thx for your input. It is very valuable for a newcomer ;)
Dell T5500 with Dual Hexa Xeon CPU 3Ghz, 32Gb ram, GTX 1080
Amiga 1200 8Mb ram, 8Gb ssd