What would be the ideal machine for TG3 ???

[pclavett]

Hi all !
This question would be for all who could tell me the best way to get speed in rendering with TG3 if you were to get the best options on a new machine ! I am working on my old workhorse the Early 2008 MAcPro...which I must say has been an excellent machine and quite loyal with no breakdowns in 5 years of abuse ! It has been good to me but have been thinking that it is time to move on to better things ! The new MacPro is coming out this month (at least that is what is planned...think it may be a few months late though !).
Would like to know where it would serve me best to invest and where would be the best "bang for the buck" for rendering i.e..processors or RAM for example ??? Mind you at my age I can afford myself a gift but would like to know if some areas do not really make a difference for the amount of money that is requested.
I am including a screenshot of the options that make a difference and would like input into where it is best to invest !
Appreciate your help and I guess Jo might be a good resource for the Mac side of things !
Thanks !
Paul

[billhd]

The graphics board can be the lower end (does not figure in rendering), I would trade more processors for the clock speed, as the rendering is multithreaded, so 12 cores recommended, and the more memory the better, but consider aftermarket (to $ave)  if you go beyond the 12 or 16MB.  More memory allows bigger scenes/pops etc.  I can't say how much overall better performance, aside from the very definite scale-up speed in rendering, memory beyond 12 or 16 will bring.  I use an older 12 core/12MB.  I can bog the gui.  But...all a big boost over my previous box, a PowerPC  processor!

[jo]

Hi,

I've thought about this myself :-). Unfortunately at the price they are I think it will be a while before a new Mac Pro can grace my desk. In order of priority I would say it goes CPU, RAM and then graphics card.

The easiest one is the graphics card. TG is starting to make better use of the graphics card although it isn't used during rendering yet. I think any of the options on the Mac Pro are more than sufficient.

I've been thinking about the CPU and really I'd want to see benchmarks first. For my purposes more cores is better because testing multithreaded performance is important. However if I wasn't considering that I think I would look at the 3.5 GHz 6 core option. Although my machine is a dual quad core 2.26 Ghz I have noticed that it seems to be beaten quite handily in benchmarks by machines with fewer cores and higher clock speeds. TG's threaded performance is quite good so I think clock speed (maybe better chips too, I have a Nehalem Xeon) is the bigger factor. I'm not sure the 2.7 GHz 12 core option would be so much faster it would justify what I'm sure would be a big price premium. However I would take the the 3.5 GHz 6 core over the 3.7 Ghz 4 core (although, again, benchmarks :-).

For memory, the most you can afford is best but it depends what sort of scenes you're making. At the start of the year I upgraded to 20 GB and I've been quite happy with that. Some very big scenes I test can use that much and more but you kind of have to be deliberately trying to use a lot of RAM. Most scenes I test use less but I'm often running memory hungry development and performance analysis tools which can use up what I have. For the Mac Pro I think I would be happy to go with the base 16 GB which comes with the 3.5 GHz 6 core model with an eye to upgrading down the track. Apple notoriously charges a big premium on RAM.

Regards,

Jo

[Oshyan]

Jo pretty much says it. A general rule of thumb is that *for CPUs from the same manufacturer (Intel or AMD)*, you can basically multiply cores by Ghz and get a rough comparison. So the 6 core at 3.5Ghz = 21 "total Ghz" (it doesn't *really* work that way, but it's a rough guide). Vs. the 8 core at 3.0Ghz = 24 total Ghz. So the 8 core should be *slightly* faster, however if it's a significant price premium I'd recommend the 6 core instead. Also agree with Jo on RAM, start with 16 because buying RAM from Apple is needlessly expensive and it's super easy to upgrade later.

- Oshyan

[Thelby]

http://www.titanuscomputers.com/
http://www.maingear.com/custom/desktops/quantumshift/index.php

[pclavett]

Hi Guys !
Well the final options for the MacPro are out and if I wanted everything....it would be $10,000 CND !!! Even in USD it would be well over $9000 !!! Sooooooo.....even at 59, I cannot have everything that I wish for !!! I have to make choices and need help in selecting something that will make sense for rendering as Terragen will be the software with the most demands on this computer. Obviously looking at my photos and listening to some music does not need this amount of computing. Want to focus mainly on the processor options where most of the bucks seem to be going and also the Flash memory is not cheap. As for the RAM, certainly this can be upgraded later at a cheaper price through other venders such as OWC and not sure that the graphics need to be at max. I am including the link to the CND apple store configuration options and also a jpg of the one maxed out and also a glimpse at what I have now. Is this new item going to make a difference in rendering speed as compared to my old system ???
Thank you all for your insight !
Paul

http://store.apple.com/ca/buy-mac/mac-pro?product=MD878LL/A&step=config

[TheBadger]

I Strongly agree with whats been said about apple memory.
I don't think I have ever heard a good explanation for why apple charges so much. The only reason I can think of, that it costs so much, is that it may be more stable in their PCs. I have 32GB of 3rd party mem, and mostly I think its just fine. But in TG when Im really pushing the memory with objects, and then start doing lots of normal TG stuff (moving the 3d preview) my screen can go bonkers, for lack of the right term. Basically I have to restart.

In terms of the cost of the whole system, I don't think its too much more than what I have seen for PC work stations. THe PC system autodesk recommended for use with softimage was more than $5,000 up to $8,000. And that was 1 1/2- 2 years ago. So things are not getting cheaper.
But there are market cycles too.

When the G4s came out and apple was selling them with the 22in plasma cinema display (the fat one) that system was about 6 thousand (with the plasma) but the cost came down pretty fast. And after the G5s were done, the price for an apple was not "too" bad.

The thing about Terragen and the system you linked too is, after people start using terragen they tend to start using other 3D soft too (if they weren't already) so those graphics cards will be of much more use then. Mudbox and other sculpters make heavy use of the graphics cards. I think modelers do too. And I know that thefoundry is working with apple on some of their soft, the claim is that mari runs faster on a mac than any other system. How true that is I have no idea.

I personally think the only justification for the price is if its for business, or if is is for a hobby than it has to be a very serious hobby where the hobby borders on a business (any workstation not just mac).

I really would like to have a new mac workstation. I like the price of PCs, but I just hate windows, every version (just me, I know).  But I do.
But even if I could afford the new mac right now (which I really cannot) I would wait until at least the second release. They always upgrade their towers (it seems) relatively soon after the initial release, and the upgrade is always better for hardware.

Just my thoughts, nothing more.

Also,

"Sharp 32" PN-K321 - 4K Ultra HD LED Monitor [Add $3,849.00]"   Thats way too much for me!

[Oshyan]

Uh, Apple charges so much because they can get away with it. Add-on items are high margin. They're charging for the convenience, simple as that. Essentially taking advantage of people not wanting to mess with doing their own upgrades.

Autodesks's recommended configs are A: a lot more powerful (but not nearly as small or quiet) than the MacPro (for example multi-CPU systems, professional-level Quadro graphics cards that cost several thousand dollars *each*), and B: massive overkill for Terragen. You do *not* need to spend $5000, much less $8000 or $10,000 to get top-of-the-line performance for Terragen (and most other CPU-centric rendering applications). And yes, things *are* getting cheaper, though less so in the past few years as the pace of speed increases has lessened.

As for graphics cards mattering for other software, yes absolutely. But there are a couple of things to keep in mind for that. First, a good graphics card matters for some software, not for others. For example Zbrush is almost entirely CPU-dependent, just like Terragen. So sure if you went with Mudbox it would be great to have a good graphics card, but if you opted for Zbrush instead, it'd be a waste of money to have e.g. a Quadro. The 2nd thing is graphics cards are, in a PC, not that difficult to upgrade, and the longer you wait to buy one, the cheaper a given level of performance becomes. So unless you know you'll be using a GPU-intensive app from the beginning, it's generally better to wait. Unfortunately Macs are not very upgradeable in this regard, including the new MacPro. Older MacPros even had severe limitations in what graphics cards you could use as compared to PCs.

The reality is the new MacPro has been designed for *video* more than anything, not for 3D. Most of the content creators on Macs are video-oriented, so this makes sense.

Anyway, unfortunately if you're a Mac person you're pretty much stuck with what they offer you. So if you must get a MacPro, get the 6 or 8 core; the 12 core is just too insanely expensive (and this is largely due to this being the first mainstream system to be able to offer them, over time the price for a 12 core will come down, so Badger's advice on waiting is good). Then get 16GB of RAM, don't bother with more, upgrade later on your own if you need (super easy). Go for the 256GB system drive, you shouldn't need more than that if you manage your storage space properly, it should just be used for applications and operating system anyway. Then get an external Thunderbolt 3+TB drive and you're set. Hopefully you have a monitor you can re-use, so you can avoid buying that too. That'll run you some $4000 (for the 6 core; 8 core is not a $1500 improvement over the 6 IMO). It's still a lot - you could get an equivalent PC for about $2500 - but at least it's not $9000!

- Oshyan