Terragen 3 Wishlist - Ghosts of TGD Past, Present, and Future.

Started by Upon Infinity, December 30, 2013, 03:56:30 PM

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Oshyan

I would call the "roadmap" of 2006 more of a "wish list", and certainly somewhat optimistic at the time, but we did manage to accomplish much of it which is great. That being said, we went through enough challenges and delays trying to deliver on our public goals (due to any number of very normal, common issues that arise in software development) that it became clear we needed be a bit less open and optimistic about things. People just get frustrated by it, and understandably so. Our approach at this point is to promise only what we know we can deliver in a relatively short time-frame, hence the Terragen 3 announcement more or less out of the blue just a couple months before final release. We are likely to continue that approach, with perhaps the occasional teaser or early look at a feature in development. A fully laid out development roadmap is not likely to be something we will publish in the future. If you look around the commercial software publishing world you'll actually find fairly few public roadmaps or other majorly forward-looking feature discussions from the developers; open source is naturally quite different, though even there you seldom see published lists of features planned for implementation.

Of course we do have an internal list of features and functionality we want to add. In fact we have a pretty detailed plan out to Terragen 4 and beyond at this point. And that's important to know, too - even though there is no publicly available plan, we're certainly keeping track of requests, feature ideas, improvements, etc. Equally important then is the reality that we have our dev plans pretty well solidified, with dev time estimates to get us where we want to be for future releases within the release windows we want to hit. This means that there's less room for random feature suggestions than would be if we were kind of taking things as they come, throwing features at the wall and seeing what sticks, but a more deliberate product/feature strategy has so far been a notable improvement for us and for users, and we want to continue with that approach. We still certainly welcome feature suggestions and implementation feedback, but there are few really new ideas at this point, almost anything one can think of has been discussed before in various threads sometimes going back years. Sometimes a feature doesn't get implemented because we decide it's not valuable enough to the product, sometimes it's just a matter of implementation time or development priority, i.e. we'll eventually get to it. Everything that has been mentioned in this thread has been discussed at one time or another, some are intended for future implementation, others we may reconsider when the time is right.

You mention competitive concerns as well, and yes this is another factor. We've seen competing products implement very similar - if not identical - features in remarkable succession to one of our releases with that feature (good examples would be full planet model and cloud altitude/depth modulation functions that allows "cloud follows terrain" easily). That is inevitable, of course. But it's not unreasonable to expect that if we had a clear roadmap laid out, some of those feature implementations might come even sooner, i.e. competitors could work to leapfrog us in features (especially as most of our competitors have larger teams than we do). Our edge remains in the quality and stability of features that we implement, but if we can pull out a few surprises, that helps us too.

We certainly hope you'll all be excited about where we take Terragen next. It's really our job to make sure that you are excited about it because that's how we make our living. If we fail to excite a majority of our user base and the wider market, it threatens our very livelihood! So for us the stakes couldn't possibly be higher, and we take the process of analyzing and predicting the market and its future needs very seriously. Part of that is looking at your feature suggestions and ideas, both explicit and implied, as well as deriving good feature ideas from problems or workflow needs we observe. We may make mistakes here and there in the process of prioritizing and implementing, but I think our biggest challenge continues to be development and overall staff "manpower", not lack of ideas or ambition. If we had a larger team, I have no doubt we'd be blowing your minds on a regular basis. As it is, we have to settle for hopefully blowing your mind once every year or two. ;)

To more specifically address some of your questions (keeping mind that I can't lay out our larger, longer-term plans): Certainly more stability and minor updates are coming. As well as not-so-minor, I'd like to think. We have a 3.1 release planned for early in 2014 which should have one or two notable new (but not Earth-shattering) features in it, along with many bug fixes, etc. We are likely to release one or more other "point release" updates through 2014 as well. These will be free for all users of Terragen 3, as has been our previous policy.

We are absolutely not moving in the direction of a general-purpose 3D program. While other more general-purpose applications do seem to be adding some competitive features, and we watch industry developments in that area very closely, we continue to feel that by focusing in the area of modeling and rendering natural phenomena, we can remain a relevant and effective part of many artist's tool set. We are continuously evaluating various options for diversifying and strengthening our position, but we will almost certainly always remain pretty tightly focused on this area.

We do have some plans for completing the Wiki documentation faster and better, along with other potential documentation-related improvements. We haven't lost sight of the importance of it, if anything it's become even more clear over the past few months. But we're also working on partnering with other content producers and supporting the development of learning resources like Geekatplay's recent releases.

Regarding GI, Matt will probably kill me for saying so, but we *have* experimented with "brute force" GI. It's quite slow, as you would expect. So it's really not likely to show up as a feature any time soon. Instead we're likely to continue innovating for higher-performance solutions like the improved GISD in TG3. Brute force is useful mostly as a reference, but it is of course the most simplistic and generally slow way to achieve the end result; more clever and optimized solutions can achieve similar quality levels in far less time and so are a better use of dev time.

In answer to Badger's comments:

We do plan to add Populate on Object some time in 2014.

Mudbox/Zbrush integration, not entirely sure how to handle this to be honest. It appears possible as-is (as the workflow threads have shown), so it may be more of a documentation/verified workflow issue, which frankly I can't help with as I(we?) don't have either program. Autodesk isn't exactly highly responsive, but we may have some luck talking directly with Poxologic to see if they have any input on an ideal workflow.

RTO displacement is *not* likely to be implemented any time soon, unfortunately. What we will do (again, some time in 2014) is add an option to affect RTO per-object/population.

Alessandro:

Don't hold your breath on a particle system. It would be nice but is far too ambitious an undertaking at this point, especially considering how good many existing particle simulation systems there are. Our general approach is more to improve interoperability with other applications so you can get the best of multiple tools working closely together. There are whole software companies focusing on particle simulation tools so if we can help users integrate them in some way with Terragen that is likely the most effective use of our time (e.g. geometry export for particle simulation interaction, environment maps for rendering, etc.).

An improved populator with some of the features you likely have in mind is planned for 2014.

Painted shader improvements are certainly something we're thinking about.

An AO/Dirt Map shader would be nice. I'm not sure of the feasibility, but it's something I've mentioned to Matt before...

Spline terrain generation is also a somewhat "big" feature, one we're definitely interested in, but not likely to come real soon practically speaking.

For everyone else: lots of misc. feature requests here and there, we'll take note, but may not be able to respond specifically to each one.

I will say though, that the requests for "stability" are a bit surprising to me. We do aim for very stable releases and in general that seems to be something we've done well with over the years, in fact we'v had a lot of feedback, particularly from new users, that Terragen is comparatively stable. If you have specific circumstances where there are stability issues that are *not* simply related to basic system resource limitations, then we'd love to hear about them. We are aware of a few such issues recently, for example the "abort while populating" crash reported in another thread which we're looking into, and we fixed a few stability issues in the 3.0.10 release after the TG3 launch, but if you do have other stability-related feedback and experiences, please let us know with more details and specifics.

- Oshyan

Upon Infinity

Thank you, Oshyan, for that awesomely detailed response.  If nothing else, Planetside has the best support and response in the industry.

Quote from: Oshyan on January 03, 2014, 04:20:37 AM
If you look around the commercial software publishing world you'll actually find fairly few public roadmaps or other majorly forward-looking feature discussions from the developers; open source is naturally quite different, though even there you seldom see published lists of features planned for implementation.

Makes sense to me.

Quote from: Oshyan on January 03, 2014, 04:20:37 AM
In fact we have a pretty detailed plan out to Terragen 4 and beyond at this point. And that's important to know, too - even though there is no publicly available plan, we're certainly keeping track of requests, feature ideas, improvements, etc.

This is great to know!  Even if we don't get the specifics, it's good to hear about even vague developments going on in the background.  Sometimes, when you haven't heard anything for a while, strange ideas start to go through your head;  "Is this the final version?", "Is the software going to be abandoned?"  Although it could just be my general lack of sleep... ;D

Quote from: Oshyan on January 03, 2014, 04:20:37 AM
We are absolutely not moving in the direction of a general-purpose 3D program. While other more general-purpose applications do seem to be adding some competitive features, and we watch industry developments in that area very closely, we continue to feel that by focusing in the area of modeling and rendering natural phenomena, we can remain a relevant and effective part of many artist's tool set. We are continuously evaluating various options for diversifying and strengthening our position, but we will almost certainly always remain pretty tightly focused on this area.

Understandable and probably desirable, as there are plenty of general-purpose modellers and renderers out there.  One question, though, will there ever be an option to animate (rig) imported objects?  For example, import a fish, and then have the fish not only move, but also swish its tail, or something similar?  Or does Terragen already have a feature / work-around for this?  I'm not too knowledgeable on the animation version.

Quote from: Oshyan on January 03, 2014, 04:20:37 AM
We do have some plans for completing the Wiki documentation faster and better, along with other potential documentation-related improvements. We haven't lost sight of the importance of it, if anything it's become even more clear over the past few months. But we're also working on partnering with other content producers and supporting the development of learning resources like Geekatplay's recent releases.

I wonder if this couldn't be done with some of the more active forum members.  Maybe have them submit a write-up for a particular node, then you could just scan it for accuracy, edit as necessary, and then it's done.  Wikipedia is all user-submitted, I'm certain we could pull it off here.  Maybe offer credit or a link to someone's site if we need to get motivation going.

Quote from: Oshyan on January 03, 2014, 04:20:37 AM
Regarding GI, Matt will probably kill me for saying so, but we *have* experimented with "brute force" GI. It's quite slow, as you would expect. So it's really not likely to show up as a feature any time soon. Instead we're likely to continue innovating for higher-performance solutions like the improved GISD in TG3. Brute force is useful mostly as a reference, but it is of course the most simplistic and generally slow way to achieve the end result; more clever and optimized solutions can achieve similar quality levels in far less time and so are a better use of dev time.

Nobody should really hold that against you guys.  Anyone who's used a pure ray-tracer knows that those kinds of compromises are necessary to achieve reasonable render speeds, otherwise they become exponentially longer with every added detail.  Still, a checkbox would have been nice, but I think I have the GI working the way I need it now, so it's less of a concern.


Oshyan

Regarding animation, we currently support sequences of OBJ objects, which can be used for animated objects, though at the cost of very large object file sets. This was used for an animation last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_T6zhiI2aM

Object sequences are not necessarily used that much because they're kind of inefficient. We do hope to add support for importing other animated formats in the future however, including FBX, Alembic, and possibly others. So in answer to your question, I don't think it's likely we'll have built-in character animation or non-procedural model deformation/animation tools any time soon (we do have the procedural mesh deformer input already), our approach will instead be to maximize the ability to load and render high quality animations made in other tools more dedicated to that task.

The Wiki is already openly editable and we certainly encourage knowledgeable community members to contribute. We'll gladly review and improve anything that others add. But it's a lot to ask of people, too. So far there have not been tremendous contributions to the docs outside of Planetside staff.

- Oshyan

TheBadger

QuoteIn answer to Badger's comments:

We do plan to add Populate on Object some time in 2014.

Thats great! Just think of all the possibilities!

QuoteMudbox/Zbrush integration, not entirely sure how to handle this to be honest. It appears possible as-is (as the workflow threads have shown), so it may be more of a documentation/verified workflow issue, which frankly I can't help with as I(we?) don't have either program. Autodesk isn't exactly highly responsive, but we may have some luck talking directly with Poxologic to see if they have any input on an ideal workflow.

Mostly I just want to see it promoted as a vehicle for image creation with Terragen. I want to see more images that use it, and more talk about how and why people did what they did with it. A Terragen-mud/z-world M/geocontrol2 workflow is pretty amazing! But one person can only make a few images in a year, usually ( it feels).
But 100 people could make a book worth of images!

And by the way guys, its not so hard for artists to collaborate on an art book. I can think of more than a few people around here who should get together and publish a collection. There are a ton of ways to do it, and to sell it.

QuoteRTO displacement is *not* likely to be implemented any time soon, unfortunately. What we will do (again, some time in 2014) is add an option to affect RTO per-object/population.

I think most of *my* "problems" would be solved with the per-object abilities. displacement with RTO on is really more of an ideal for me.
Mostly I ask and talk about what I think is an ideal way to use the software, rather than that the software does not work. Im very interested in general, about the refining process of things.

Thanks for the feed back Oshyan. U-I and others are right, Staff involvement here is mostly unmatched from what I have experienced on the net.
And don't get people started on autodesk! saying "Autodesk isn't exactly highly responsive" Is a bit like saying its warm in hell. ;D... Yeah, but its a dry heat  ;)
It has been eaten.

jo

Hi,

Quote from: Oshyan on January 03, 2014, 04:30:46 PM
The Wiki is already openly editable and we certainly encourage knowledgeable community members to contribute. We'll gladly review and improve anything that others add. But it's a lot to ask of people, too. So far there have not been tremendous contributions to the docs outside of Planetside staff.

Actually, someone recently contributed a bunch of GIFs showing the effects of various settings for some nodes which is greatly appreciated. They added them and I've rearranged them to suit the docs layout a bit better. I've just figured out who it was too, I must thank them.

Regards,

Jo

TheBadger

It has been eaten.

Oshyan


TheBadger

AHHHH!! Thats what Im talking about! Just seeing that saves me hours! Freaking hours! Days even! Thats half of it right freaking there!

Find this person and make love to them, damn it! Or at least give him a free license or something. And then ask him to do the same for every node and combination lol!
It has been eaten.

Oshyan


alessandro

Great news and being a programmer myself, I agree on the development insights that Oshyan kindly shared.
www.artstation.com/artist/alessandromastronardi
www.facebook.com/alessandromastronardi.wildlifeartist/?ref=bookmarks

masonspappy

Quote from: Oshyan on January 03, 2014, 04:30:46 PM
The Wiki is already openly editable and we certainly encourage knowledgeable community members to contribute. We'll gladly review and improve anything that others add. But it's a lot to ask of people, too. So far there have not been tremendous contributions to the docs outside of Planetside staff.

Every once in a while I'll see comments about volunteers creating documentation, and I can only sigh. So, If you'll allow the perspective of someone who has made a living managing teams of programmers  for 20 years throughout the United States, let me say without equivocation that it sounds like a great idea, but it doesn't work in real life.  Programmers love what they do, and constantly set challenges for themselves which they delight in overcoming.  But they do not put the same enthusiasm into documenting their creations.  That's not in-line with their creative bent.   That creative streak runs rampant across these boards, and is a major factor in pushing Terragen to where it is today.  Creating stuff is fun, cool, groovy, thrilling, challenging, sexy and satisfying.  Typing up words to describe that process is, well, not so much fun, so it gets low priority in the scheme of things.  This is  why we have a position of "Documentation Specialist" in some of our projects.   If Terragen is to be documented properly (as I would expect in any mature and 'public-ready' software package) it almost certainly will come about only if it is defined as a set task with clear assignments to people designated for those specific tasks.    I hope these comments are not taken as criticism or misinterpreted as denigration of the product - they certainly are not - but they are an honest take on what will be required to properly complete this task.

Oshyan

Indeed we agree masonpappy, and we're working on approaches to accomplish that, within the limitations of our staff time. We certainly don't *expect* people to contribute a lot to the docs, but we made it possible for a couple of reasons. One big reason is that people do have their own methods of working, tips, tricks, etc. as well as tutorials that will sometimes be written, and the wiki is a better place to put those than in the forums where they'll get lost, and where formatting and interlinking tools are not as sophisticated. People can also add value to existing documentation with their own example images, files, etc. if desired. It's intended to augment, but certainly not be the basis of or sole method of creating the core documentation.

- Oshyan

j meyer

Quote from: Oshyan on January 03, 2014, 08:33:03 PM
............
written, and the wiki is a better place to put those than in the forums where they'll get lost,
.............

- Oshyan

How about a big instantly visible link to the wiki on the index page then? ;)

Dune

Documentation has been discussed lots of times, and in my opinion not everything can be documented. There are so many variables and possibilities of mixing, adding, subtracting nodes, with all sorts of values possible, that even a slight change in one link or value may change the whole lot. I think a user should get to know the basics and possibilities first, and experiment a lot. REALLY A LOT! I've just found that using values of minus 20 and minus 10 in a color adjust shader does things to a gradient after a displacement shader to scalar, for instance. If I'd stayed in the plus values, I'd never have found what I needed. Think blacks, grays and whites....

PabloMack

I would like to be able to hide cameras in the preview. My current scene has so many cameras that I can't see what I'm doing.