Ben Nevis challenge revisited

Started by bigben, July 18, 2007, 09:10:58 AM

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bigben

Here is a test render of a dawn scene from Ben Nevis, Scotland. The reference images were used for an Ashunder challenge a while ago, and since I found that exercise so helpful I intended to repeat it with TG2.  My own challenge for this is twofold... a) to try and reproduce the lighting effects in the sky from these dawn images and b) from these construct a lighting/ atmosphere model that can deal with different sun elevations for smooth animations.  The second one is more complex since animating colours can potentially cause "jumping" due to the limited range of values.

Oshyan: You were right, GI has been very helpful in getting to this stage.  The number of permutations of different settings complicates things a bit but I think I've got to a stage where I can start concentrating on one variable at a time.  GI rocks!

For this image I've modified most of the GI (enviro light) settings, in particular the tint... dealing with surface and atmosphere GI separately. I had to save as EXR and tweak in Photoshop to control the highlights, although the BMP version wasn't too bad.  Surfacing and clouds are very basic at the moment as I'm concentrating mainly on the sky.

Key things to note.... the sky at the top is blue... horizon colour on the left is orange (from red decay) and pink on the right (from atmosphere GI)... the band of light sky has very low saturation... foreground shadows are blue (not overpowered by warmer colours affecting direct sunlight/sky), distant mountains get progressively pinker.  Sounds simple, but in the earlier chalenge I found that whenever you got two things right, adjusting a third would always screw something else up

I think the GI tint on individual cloud layers will also be very helpful for some of the subtle effect that people have been trying for.

Detail 0.5, AA 3, GI 3,4
Camera height: eye level (2m)

Here is a direct link to my reference pics.
http://www.path.unimelb.edu.au/~bernardk/terragen/ben_nevis/

The data links are out of date. I have downloaded new data and made an improved terrain which is listed in my Terrain posting in File Sharing. Direct here here
http://www.path.unimelb.edu.au/~bernardk/terragen/terrains/ben_nevis/

rcallicotte

Wow.  It's unfair how beautiful this is.   :P  I want to do this sort of work.

Thanks for sharing.  I can't see anything immediately on this that I would change.  Great job.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Oshyan

Very nice Ben - a lot closer than I think most anyone got previously. I think the clouds are the biggest aspect of the atmosphere that needs improvement, but I don't think it will be particularly hard to match the ones in the photo.

The terrain is probably going to be a bigger challenge - duplicating the finer details of the surfacing. The foreground looks good but the background mountains really look low-detail by comparison. You may find some of the Power Fractal "warping" functions are useful to create some of those more interesting detail structures.

- Oshyan

bigben

#3
Thanks for the comments. I think the far detail will be the trickiest for me... more to learn still. The fractal detail is back to default settings, so I can't really claim credit for the foreground. I still want to fine tune the top half of the sky and produce a couple of different versions for slightly lower and higher sun elevation to see how it might be possible to animate between them in future.

Since I'd been relying on GI so much (had to turn off all fill lights as they were screwing things up) I did a render without GI. A few expletives were probably uttered when I first saw the difference, but I guess WOW! will do for here  ;)


Oshyan

That's a super example of the power and utility of GI Ben. :)

- Oshyan

old_blaggard

Quote from: Oshyan on July 18, 2007, 05:30:51 PM
That's a super example of the power and utility of GI Ben. :)

- Oshyan

Yeah it is :o!
http://www.terragen.org - A great Terragen resource with models, contests, galleries, and forums.

bigben

I'll post the TGD when I've finished... and maybe some tips/clues before then, but I'd like to take this a bit further before I do. Just like the original challenge... I learnt a hell of a lot from this exercise and it will certainly change my approach to lighting normal daytime scenes. 

rcallicotte

Thanks Ben.  We're learning alongside.  Cooool.   8)
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

bigben

I've fixed a few things up... new clouds with fixed lighting (including GI tweak) and added some low cloud for artistic licence... added some basic displacement, the only tricky thing I did was add progressively more displacement with distance.  I liked the foreground so there is no extra displacement for 500m, then some mild displacement to 5km (covering the first range), and then some extra displacement beyond that.  With the mountains being so rounded in this TER it seemed necessary to make things consistent across the terrain.

Running a render with high quality settings which might finish tonight.

And now for my first clues:
I approached the lighting of the atmosphere in the same way that I approach colouring surfaces. Rather than creating different surfaces with distinct colours, I rely on blending between the surfaces to create the final colour. A grass shader for example, will have a dark green base layer and the child layers of yellow, blue and white (and sometimes red). Colouring the atmosphere is a lot more complex because you have to use the lighting settings to provide colour tweaks without screwing up the lighting on the surfaces. It's quite easy to go around in circles.  The other tricky part is that you don't have the same control over distribution. You are dependent on each settings effective "distribution". Furthermore, some of the effects you want to apply to the atmosphere will counter effects you may want to apply to surfaces.

From this I started with the Enviro Light settings where you have separate control over the colour and strength of GI on surfaces and the atmosphere. Take a detour to the Atmosphere TAB and note the Bluesky density and Redsky decay colours.  Back in the Envro light section, apply the bluesky colour to the Colour on Surfaces and the Redsky colour to the Colour in atmosphere. Play around with the strengths and check out the preview render (wait for 40%)

The horizon colour will be influenced by atmospheric glow, so the GI colour will have less influence as you get closer to the sun. Try changing the hue of the Colour in atmosphere towards the red, and this will give you the variation you see along my horizon from left to right.

On the surfaces... the blue GI will a) fill the shadows and b) illuminate all surfaces with a blue light partly in proportion to how much sunlight it receives.  To counter this in the surface highlights I made the sunlight a very light yellow. Previously when I had done this without GI it made everything look yuk, but with GI it works really well.

And of course there's the clouds. Clouds are incredible complex when it comes to lighting and I havea lot of tests to do before I can start to confidently control their lighting... but for now, in the lighting section of each cloud layer theres an Enviro light section to control the strength and colour for just that cloud layer. This is a really cool thing. In the first render above the clouds are still neutral in colour. In the next version they will have a similar variation to the horizon... ie. atmospheric glow will influence the balance between sunlight and GI. When I added the low level clouds they were pink which looked stupid. Editing their enviro light settings fixed this.  Having this sort of control over individual cloud layers will make some awesome sunsets possible, where the lighting of the cloud will depend in part on its altitude.

There are some other bits I haven't included but this is the main crux of what I did for this image.

Matt

Hi Ben,

Can you post some links to the reference images for those who haven't seen them already?

Matt
Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

bigben

Here is a direct link to my reference pics.
http://www.path.unimelb.edu.au/~bernardk/terragen/ben_nevis/

The data links are out of date. I have downloaded new data and made an improved terrain which is listed in my Terrain posting in File Sharing. Direct here here ;)
http://www.path.unimelb.edu.au/~bernardk/terragen/terrains/ben_nevis/

The low clouds weren't working as well as expected so I've removed them for now until I run some more tests.  About half way through rendering GI.


Matt

Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

bigben

#12
I ditched the high quality render as it slowed down to a crawl. I'll restart it  a bit later with less extreme settings.  During this time however, I've been working on the terrain. Some of my changes have deviated from the original scene, but I liked them so they've stayed. The foreground detail has been the hardest as the camera is at a realistic (human) height and I really wanted to avoid using distance shaders to mask the detail I was adding. It shouldn't really be needed if I get it right.

Here's a low res render of my latest version... a raw render and a tweaked EXR version. Single cloud layer, two strata layers, image masked fake stones in foregournd and improved displacement (a bit hard to see the last one at this size ;) )  I might bump the sunlight strength back up again and stick with EXR for this image... I'll figure out my animatable atmosphere/lighting later.

And for those that have noticed... yes my avatar was shot on the same day as the reference pic....  me + 30kg backpack (-camera bag) on the cairn at the summit.  Everyone there took a few quick steps away for fear I might fall on them   ;D

rcallicotte

These are nice, Ben.  You mentioned using EXR.  How do you use the EXR?  I don't understand what to do with the EXR version.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

bigben

#14
When you're saving your render, change the image type to EXR. After that, open in Photoshop and convert to 8 or 16 bit (I convert to 16 bit first in case I want to perform additional tweaks).  When you do the initial conversion, you get to choose things like exposure and gamma for the scene.  I use the adaptive method, and manually tweak the curve on the histogram.

The advantage to this is that you get very fine control over highlights that may be blown if the render is saved at 8 bit at the start.  In this file I have bumped up both the sun's strength and atmospheric glow amount, both of which can cause blowouts of highlight detail in the sky.