Started by Seth, March 03, 2015, 07:40:23 pm
Quote from: Upon Infinity on March 05, 2015, 04:38:53 amI hope I wasn't coming across the wrong way, TU. I guess I see an attack on TG as an attack on my choices as well, as it is currently the only renderer I use. It may not be perfect, but it is the best I've found for the work I'm presently doing (although to be honest, I haven't done much searching lately). But also I would like to understand more of the criticisms you're levelling against it. I'm no expert in differentiating renderers from each other or the strengths and weaknesses of each but as I understand it, the technology behind a pure raytracer really suffers when it comes to procedural calculations, like Terragen's landcape generator? Although, to be fair, I haven't used a lot of other renderders that much. The reason I don't use POV-Ray anymore was mostly user interface related. I think I remember it actually getting it to do populations as one point but programming 3D scenes was really frustrating for me. But if there is competition for Terragen out there that works on a raytracing engine, I suppose I haven't heard of it yet, except Vue maybe. Or perhaps it's price point was too high to be on my radar?
QuoteIt's also that I saw a free program like POV-Ray just killing on these kind of lighting effects even before I stumbled across TG, that I just assumed most (all?) pure, unbiased raytracers could perform nearly as adequately or better and that the mathematics behind them were basically copy and paste from a programming standpoint. POV-Ray was a really neat program and it was my introduction to 3D, but having a non-existent UI meant it was practically unusable to me. This Takua engine seems to me to be just another potential POV-Ray-like program. Something that maybe a few code-heads can really make some interesting scenes with but impractical from an user / artistic standpoint.
QuoteBut also, are you saying that TG was way ahead of it's time and that other tech is beginning to catch up and begin to overlap on the things that TG does do well? The kinds of lighting effects shown with Takua were never TG's strength nor will they ever be. I knew that going in. I suppose that's the source of my defensiveness. And I do agree that TG's progress has been snail-slow over the years. But just when I think it's stopped progressing, they throw us a tasty bone of an upgrade. I also agree that if pure raytracers can create Terrains like TG can, then Planetside could be in some trouble. I still see some critical weaknesses in TG, however, like importing animated objects.
QuoteI can definitely understand criticism of 3DC implementing PBR before it's standardized. Although they are implementing it, like it or not. I also happen to own it, so it's something I'm paying attention to. The way they are implementing it should be easy to get Terragen to get it to work. Even if TG would need to be updated to do so. I've been running experiments with PBR and Terragen, and they are so far promising. There really is not much to differentiate them from normal textures. I'm still confident TG can run them if not now, then in the future with relative ease on the programming side of things. The 3DC website mentioned that all node-based renderers should be able to implement them fairly easily. It just might not do it "like the others".
Quote from: mhaze on March 05, 2015, 06:37:14 amThe problem with TG development is the size of the company! The new plans for a SDK may well speed things up.
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on March 04, 2015, 04:50:32 pmThe short answer confirms what we already know from various discussions before: there's no rasterized version for evaluating physically accurate and correct GI.The whole post then boils down to that REYES-style rendering is useless, except for calculating primary visibility of the displaced primitives.From then on REYES-style rendering is infeasible because of aforementioned reason.
QuoteFurthermore he explains that REYES-style was favored in the early days when render power was expensive and lacking. Now there's plenty and it's relatively cheap.Raytracing is economical now and because of industry/academic strain raytracing outperforms REYES-style rendering in both speed and visual fidelity, since a couple of years.
QuoteTadaaa...Of course I'm extremely biased about this and thus "happy" to see someone who's really into this stuff kind of acknowledge my thoughts and feelings.
QuoteIt seems to me there's little reason, if at all, for the industry/academic field to re-invest into a REYES approach.Heck, it seems the latest Renderman isn't even a hybrid REYES/raytracer anymore, just pure raytracing. Hello???
QuoteThe project had a 6 week schedule though we finished the project in 5 weeks. At the peak of asset creation we had 14 artists dedicated to the project during the first 3 weeks. Once assets and layouts where complete the crew scaled back to just a few people to finish the shot."
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on March 06, 2015, 04:36:00 amHi Matt,First of all I don't hate you! I'm sorry for sucking the joy out of discussing these things for you.
QuoteBy the looks of it your reply contains some answers to my long-standing questions.Reading your reply there are seemingly quite a lot of mis-interpretations on TG's renderer, also from my side.I need some time to think about your reply, because my first feeling is even more confusion.I and probably a large fraction of the community(?), were under the assumption the majority of the rendering-process was rasterized and that deferred shading "decoupled" that from the rasterizer to let raytracing deal with the shading, similar to the leap from rasterized object rendering to RTO.Seemingly, a lot was already happening with ray tracing instead and this confuses me.Consequently it makes me think "so actually the rasterized phase of the rendering was only for visibility and everything else was already mostly raytracing? I thought the lack of speed and visual nice-ness was because of the rasterizer's limitation and not the raytracer?
QuoteIs the situation even worse then than I think it is??"