The Truth About The College Student Debt Crisis

Started by AP, July 23, 2015, 11:52:30 PM

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TheBadger

Quote from: Kadri on July 24, 2015, 05:30:43 PM
That movie is good.Can we agree on that at least before the end ? :D

Yes, most certainly. ;D
It has been eaten.


Upon Infinity

Quote from: Kadri on July 24, 2015, 06:48:29 AM
Forget all the other things above. We all are human beings.
And because of money-economical and political views you don't want to help other people when they need it the most?

You're assuming helping people is what the government does.  If you have to be forced to do something, chances are, it's not in your own interest, it's in the person's who doing the forcing.

Quote from: Kadri on July 24, 2015, 06:48:29 AM
You use the word "Free" only when you like it like in "Free Market healthcare works best".
The free market doesn't care about humans. It is about money.

Technically, that's true.  And the way you make money in the free market is by benefitting society.  But saying it that way, is like saying Planetside doesn't care about 3D graphics, they only care about money.  Which isn't exactly true, as we all know.  But money is their motivator.  And the way that they make money is by providing the methods by which others produce 3D graphics.  This is Adam Smith's "invisible hand".  It doesn't require a law, a royal edict, threats of harm or death, it simply occurs.  There will be no SWAT members busting down Matt's door if he doesn't come up with a timely new version of Terragen software (although there may be a few forum members  ;)), so what compels him to keep adding new features?

Quote from: Kadri on July 24, 2015, 06:48:29 AM
What is more important a humans life or money?

This is an excellent question.

**** The following links contain truth.  Do not click if you live with your head in the sand.  ie. vote Republicrat.
This is an excellent answer:  https://www.google.ca/search?q=iraq+war&biw=1536&bih=719&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMImaKqw-f1xgIVAi6ICh0IXwcI

This is the excellent effects of government "helping people": https://www.google.ca/search?q=depleted+uranium+iraq&biw=1536&bih=719&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIsb6i3uz1xgIVkpmICh3bLw7e

And here, you can see the happy newly helped (well, you would, if not for the party hat covering their head): https://www.google.ca/search?q=iraq+war&biw=1536&bih=719&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMImaKqw-f1xgIVAi6ICh0IXwcI#tbm=isch&q=abu+ghraib+torture+pictures

Well, I've said before people should refrain from posting political posts in the forum as the discussions get too heated, so this will be my last.  But when people say that more laws, more guns pointed at people, more taxes, and more threats are the answer, they really ought to know exactly what they're getting into. 






Kadri

#19

Hmm i read your post. I wasn't going to post but couldn't get over it.

Your way to discuss is one of the problematic ways that attribute to these kind of threads.
Your examples are going to the extreme. When i said helping for example i mean the healthcare for the American people.
The pictures you posted are still (kinda) examples helping the same American people by helping their "Free" market and killing the ones about they don't care.
They kill anyone who is against their own "Free" market.Even their own people of course.
And you are actually in one way proving that they care only about money and not people with your examples.

In this way we can not discuss this at all.

Just to be clear that you understand me better.
I hate states - governments.
We have here since years one of the best examples how dangerous governments can be.
But hating governments and hating to give a little from yourself to people that might need it are not the same things.
What i say is more about human nature then any kind of government or not government.
Think one second,socialism,communism,faşism whatever ism you want. Will there be people who need healthcare or not?
The best would be that nobody would need help at all etc. Utopia anyone?

How will this happen?
I say all the people in the society should help each other.
But there are people that say no everybody should help himself.
Basic as that. They don't like it when it is said in that way. That is what i mean.


TheBadger

QuoteI say all the people in the society should help each other.

Me too!
But when you say I should help other people and you are holding a gun to my head (force of law) then its not help anymore, its servitude. At that point you are no longer the benevolent philosopher, you become a tyrant and make everyone else a slave.
A willing slave is still a slave. It does not mater if the master is a man or an idea.
It has been eaten.

Kadri

#21

I don't think that the supposed "Free market" is the end to all problems at all.

Well Upon infinity (your name is quite appropriate for what i will say) i will go to the extreme too :)
Why i don't like most i see around written about this is that with years gone by i think there is no perfect solution at all whatever ism you want.
After all we are gone these kind of discussions will still be around for years.

I can only think about one extreme solution that is unfortunately very very science fiction and nobody will see probably for hundreds and more of years if ever.
Until every human can produce anything he wants (food,medicament's and other things) without need for another people these problems will be around.
In that kind of world you won't need a state or similar regulations.
Free market,money would mean nothing in that world too.
And even then there might be problems maybe.

Any other solution is another dress some better some worse.





Kadri

Quote from: TheBadger on July 25, 2015, 07:56:51 AM
QuoteI say all the people in the society should help each other.

Me too!
But when you say I should help other people and you are holding a gun to my head (force of law) then its not help anymore, its servitude. At that point you are no longer the benevolent philosopher, you become a tyrant and make everyone else a slave.
A willing slave is still a slave. It does not mater if the master is a man or an idea.

Then trow away the state.
We need only the bankers and the free market.
They will help us when me need it the most.
Even if we have not the money. They will give all for "Free" to us Michael.

I hope nobody of you will be in that position.

Holding a gun...robing...you have a really different mind set over there :D

Have you heard me at all saying that the government is a good thing ?
But you are willing to give the safety of your future to money counters?
So they don't rob or hold guns to anybody Michael?



TheBadger

Anyway, I think I agree with you on more than you think I do. But I never said anywhere ever, that I am for the banks. These money grubbing corrupt banks that you are referring to only survive because the government protects them, here and in your country too.

Name me one person that Obama put in prison, who was responsible for the collapse? NO one. Because the banks and the government are the same thing. The FED is not for a free market.

Anyway, I don't think that a free market will solve all our problems as you say. I just think it will help to solve some. And make it a little easier to solve a few more. Lots of problems will never go away no mater what. And those problems Ill just deal with on my own, which I do anyway, despite the size of my government.

Look at Greece. thats the future.
It has been eaten.

TheBadger

Nice to have something important to argue about though. Been kinda quite around here for a while.
US elections are coming up, so that should suck. :-\
It has been eaten.

Kadri


Nothing to say about your last posts Michael :)
As i stated earlier probably i don't like politics and economy actually. Wish there were easy solutions.


AP

#26
I don't like politics either. I am fully anti-political of course. Wolves in sheep's clothing solves nothing. Lies and false promises. The power corrupts. I just would like a world with human voluntary non-coercive interaction. That is truly what the free market place of ideas and human nature is. Most people want to cooperate in peace so i have hope. Problems can be better solved locally then by massive institutions of corruption. I see localism becoming more popular day by day. Things will get worse but better at the same time. The knowledge passed down through the internet allows this. No longer can the elite hide behind the curtain. This is a good change in our current history.

I doubt we are going to blow ourselves up. Too much risk of collateral damage for that and they all know it.

Debates like this can get hot because we live in a world that is changing fast and there are always two sides to every coin. I want peace with my fellow man, simple as that. Violence solves nothing and in my mind that is all i see governments do. I would more trust millions great minds with good ideas on how to solves problems rather then a elite select few who use force to solves our problems.

That is why i recommended those books. There some other good ones out there to. Tom Woods had a few. One of his is Meltdown. The Market for Liberty is a good read by other writers. Look up libertarian literature. Take in all of that data, break it down and figure out what can work best. There are solutions. We just need the knowledge but it is all there. No one has a all in one solution though so the more minds working together without the use of force can be a great springboard for wonderful ideas in a free market stateless world. The free market is nothing more then non-violence exchanges of goods and services.

Jeffery Tucker has some informative videos as well. Many about the market and some other subjects.

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein is an interesting look in fiction as to how a stateless setting is ran.

I think Larken Rose summed it up quite well. You are not allowed to use force against me and what gives a select few special rights to use force against others.

Freedom opposes politics and economics is just cooperative human interactions.

So, i will end it here. It had been interesting. Hopefully everyone can keep an open mind no matter our backgrounds.    8)