Update a let-down?

[bertrand]

Am I the only one to feel a little bit let down by the update? I'm not trying to belittle the achievement that is Terragen 2. In fact, it took me only five minutes of playing with the trial version before I had sent my payment for the deep edition. But I gave up on it a few months ago. And though I had the secret hope that the update would address some of the reasons, it doesn't look like it will.
As far as I can understand, the list boils down to a long series of bug fixes and minor, highly technical tweaks. Now there's nothing wrong with fixing bugs and as far as technical tweaks are concerned, I'm not one of those who keep complaining about the unfriendly UI (I love the node network!) But given the time we've waited for this update, I would have expected a bit more in terms of new functionalities (even transparency doesn't seem to be in there after all).
The only thing in this list that could almost have me go back to Terragen2 is the support for normal smoothing of .obj models and the soft shadows (although I shiver at the mention of "not optimized for speed").
More importantly, I see nothing that addresses Terragen2's main weakness: render times. I know multi-threading isn't easy to implement, but I feel it really should be way, way higher on Planetside's to-do-list. In fact, you really shouldn't be working on anything else right now.
Regardless how many fixes and new tools you guys introduce, users will always be stuck with impossible render times whether they own a P4, a Core Duo or a Quad. Whatever the amount of raw power you throw at Terragen, it will still runs at the same speed. I've done very satisfying images with it, but at the end of the day the render times are not worth the effort. And short of multi-threading, I can't think of much that would persuade me to go back to it.

[rcallicotte]

Bertrand,

The latest announced update is not out yet.

I believe I've heard somewhere else in this forum (from Planetside) that transparency will be updated in this coming update.

[RArcher]

Personally, I am quite happy that bug fixes are getting priority.  Regardless of how long a render takes, the most frustrating part for me is when it does not complete at all do to a bug crash.  Would I like new features and better render times? Of course.  But any progress towards a complete final build is good news to me.

[bertrand]

Calico: I was refering to the list of features published by Matt on the announcement page on Aug 17. My understanding is that this was an exhaustive description of the upcoming update. Apologies if I missed something there.

Rarcher: You're right, but only up to a point. I've had renders fail because of bugs after upwards of 20 hours. Had there been support for multithreading, I would have had to wait a quarter of the time using my quad core in order to find out and adjust the file. Right now, there are some functionalities such as extensive use of water or reflection shaders that are basically not usable because of the time they require to compute or the likelihood that they will crash at the end of an extensive render time. What you do is you don't use them. My problem is that I feel like this about Terragen2 as a whole now. It's a great product, but without multi-threading there isn't really a point owning it. It's like owning a supercar and only being able to use it in your backyard. After a while you just lose interest...

[rcallicotte]

Somewhere (can't find it) not that long ago, someone from Planetside said that the next update would include transparency.

[old_blaggard]

I think that the features listed are going to be about all that is implemented; no transparency is immediately upcoming.  Actually, though, soft shadows don't add much to the render time, and the optimization for SSE3 processors gives significant improvement.  Multithreading is planned for the final release, so you will see it for sure by the end of 2007, and hopefully at that point you will be willing to go back to it.  There are other ways to take advantage of two or more cores - they are a bit of a hastle, but if render times are that important to you, I would recommend checking them out.

[Volker Harun]

Cloud Layer V2:
    Reverted some changes that increased render times in build 1.8.76.0.
    "Wispy base" and "Softer base" are now adjustable scalars "Base wispiness" and "Base softness".

Changes to Cloud Layer V2's acceleration cache, including:
    Has more options to control acceleration vs. quality.
    No longer applies to visible samples, to eliminate visible artifacts.

This speeds up, doesn't it?

[Buzzzzz]

I think that the features listed are going to be about all that is implemented; no transparency is immediately upcoming.  Actually, though, soft shadows don't add much to the render time, and the optimization for SSE3 processors gives significant improvement.  Multithreading is planned for the final release, so you will see it for sure by the end of 2007, and hopefully at that point you will be willing to go back to it.  There are other ways to take advantage of two or more cores - they are a bit of a hastle, but if render times are that important to you, I would recommend checking them out.

Someone has a lot to do in 4 months for a final release to come out in 2007, and will that even have water transparency?

[rcallicotte]

I don't need anyone tell me to be patient, but is it possible to get a "laundry list" of expected features for the final version?  If not, perhaps it's time to find out why.

[bertrand]

Thanks old_blaggard. Yep, I've seen some of the workarounds. I might give them a go. Although I wonder about memory requirements. All I have to play with are two gigs. Presumably four instances of Terragen2 rendering at the same time would require 4x the memory... Which would make it inpractical.

[Oshyan]

First, to clear up any confusion, transparency will *not* be included in the next update. It will however be included in the final shipping product released later this year.

Although the next update may seem a bit lackluster, certainly a lot of work has gone into the features and fixes it does include. That they are not of interest to everyone is not surprising, but I think many people will find the inclusion of soft shadows and smooth object rendering to be particularly interesting. The new Intersect Underlying features should also be very useful and fun to experiment with - new and important surfacing effects are made possible.

In regards to the lack of significant optimization in this release, generally the most functional development approach is to implement features first and make them fast later. We will be doing a significant renderer overhaul soon and this will encompasses fixes, improvements and optimizations in many areas. It may seem like progress is slow but sometimes it comes in waves and the next major update (after the more immediate one due soon) should see some significant improvements in the areas many of you are most interested in.

We are of course well aware of the relatively short time we have left in this year. We are still targetting a release within the year and we still intend to include the significant features (such as transparency) that we have discussed in the past.

- Oshyan

[rcallicotte]

I'm not complaining about this next update.  I'm looking forward to the changes that will bring stability to so many areas. 

It's good to hear Planetside is on track, Oshyan.  Is there any way to see the list I was asking about?  Maybe it's listed somewhere on the main site and I just haven't seen it?

[Buzzzzz]

First, to clear up any confusion, transparency will *not* be included in the next update. It will however be included in the final shipping product released later this year.

Although the next update may seem a bit lackluster, certainly a lot of work has gone into the features and fixes it does include. That they are not of interest to everyone is not surprising, but I think many people will find the inclusion of soft shadows and smooth object rendering to be particularly interesting. The new Intersect Underlying features should also be very useful and fun to experiment with - new and important surfacing effects are made possible.

In regards to the lack of significant optimization in this release, generally the most functional development approach is to implement features first and make them fast later. We will be doing a significant renderer overhaul soon and this will encompasses fixes, improvements and optimizations in many areas. It may seem like progress is slow but sometimes it comes in waves and the next major update (after the more immediate one due soon) should see some significant improvements in the areas many of you are most interested in.

We are of course well aware of the relatively short time we have left in this year. We are still targetting a release within the year and we still intend to include the significant features (such as transparency) that we have discussed in the past.

- Oshyan

That's great to hear Oshyan! Holding you to it, if we don't get what you say you will get 40 lashes with a wet noodle. 

I really miss transparent water and the intersect underlying fix should be great. As far as render times, I guess some of the what I assume to be new TG users never experienced 8 days of water rendering in TG 9.43.

Thanks for the response Man!
Jay

[Oshyan]

Calico, I'll try to get a list of "for sure" features and post it for you guys. It may take a little while though - I'm heading out for a week of vacation shortly.

- Oshyan

[rcallicotte]

As one of my best bosses ever said to me almost every night, "Go home and forget about the place."

Enjoy a wonderful time!   

We'll all likely be here when you get back.