GI with Architecture

Started by dorianvan, December 09, 2016, 10:39:04 AM

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dorianvan

I need help with GI (at least I think GI is the issue). The top rendering is TG4 (GI 4,6,8, no supersample), the bottom is VRAY (no secondary bounce). The TG looks flat and the VRAY has gradations in the shadows; they appear to be flat shaded shadows. Am I missing something? Also, does anyone know of a good link discussing GI settings and how to use them properly? Thanks.
-Dorian

Dune

I think the main thing (as I mailed you) is the lack of GISD. Has it been checked?

dorianvan

#2
Big improvement with GISD, Supersample prepass, 6 with GI cache detail and on sample. These settings are definitely much better, but not as good as VRAY. However, I'm the first to admit that I don't have a good grasp on TG-GI, so maybe it's just me. The TG documentation skips over the cache detail and sample quality, so I don't know much about how they work. If somebody can explain those settings, I'd appreciate it.
-Dorian

Dune

These are hard to compare due to sharpness and texture differences, but it's way better indeed.

René

#4
There may be a workaround for this problem. Use a second sun in the same spot as the first sun with very soft shadows.

dorianvan

@Ulco: I did render at different resolutions and materials, but the GISD really helped.
@Rene: Thanks for the suggestion but I think I'm happy enough that it's not a flat shadow anymore and actually looks planted in the scene.

What I'm really interested in now is some explanation of the GI cache detail and GI sample quality parameters. It's probably so obvious that they didn't include in the documentation.
-Dorian

luvsmuzik

Is this a use for the shadow catcher shader?

Oshyan

Vray's GI system is fundamentally capable of representing more correct detail, it's as simple as that. TG is great at large-scale and can do pretty good GI, but VRay will definitely beat it in architectural-type situations. For now, at least...

Cache Detail is pretty much synonymous with how detailed the GI will be. With lower values you will get fewer samples for GI and so you'll see less variation and subtlety in the GI lighting contribution. Sample Quality is something like "accuracy" or "consistency", as I understand it. The higher the value, the more technically accurate and/or consistent the samples will be, but it does not make the overall GI result more detailed to my knowledge.

- Oshyan

dorianvan

Quote from: luvsmuzik on December 10, 2016, 11:57:42 AM
Is this a use for the shadow catcher shader?

I've never heard of it before, interesting name though.
-Dorian

dorianvan

Quote from: Oshyan on December 10, 2016, 01:18:43 PM
Cache Detail is pretty much synonymous with how detailed the GI will be. With lower values you will get fewer samples for GI and so you'll see less variation and subtlety in the GI lighting contribution. Sample Quality is something like "accuracy" or "consistency", as I understand it. The higher the value, the more technically accurate and/or consistent the samples will be, but it does not make the overall GI result more detailed to my knowledge.

Thanks Oshyan, but that seems a bit vague to me. Let me be a little more specific.

Is cache referring to the overall group of samples (in the image) and sample referring to the sample alone?
What's the difference between detail and quality?
Is there a criteria for raising/lowering the default numbers? For example, if there's lots of foliage and you're closer up, you may want to raise one/both of these numbers (which one?). Or, if there's architecture, you may want to raise only the cache detail number.
-Dorian

dorianvan

Anybody know the answers/principles behind cache detail and sample quality?
-Dorian

Matt

#11
The GI cache records the lighting at many points across the image. These are the dots you see in the pre pass; each dot corresponds to one sample. Each sample stores light from many directions.

GI cache detail affects the spacing of the samples in image space during the pre pass. Then, in the final pass the lighting at any part of the scene is a weighted average of nearby samples, or in other words a filtered interpolation. The lower the detail, the coarser the approximation. This usually shows itself as a blurriness or lack of clarity in the GI. However, GI surface details (GISD) is designed to try to compensate for this lack of detail, but that too is only an approximation even though it has detail down to the subpixel level. Low GI cache detail can also cause some parts of the scene to be completely missed in the pre pass, and this could result in no GI (black) in those areas. This is more likely to be a problem with vegetation or objects that are small and sparse in the image. (This can happen even at high GI cache detail too, but is less likely.)

At each sample point, many rays are cast outwards in a sphere to capture the lighting at that point. GI sample quality affects how many rays are cast outwards from each sample point. The actual number of rays is much greater than the setting (usually at least 6x), but in general a higher setting for GI sample quality results in more rays. If there's a lot of contrast with respect to the direction the GI is received from, higher sample quality may be needed to avoid what I would describe as blotchiness or completely missing important sources of light. The default of 2 is very low and I would recommend at least 6 for reasonable quality architectural renders. It also affects how much data is stored at each sample. Therefore both GI cache detail and GI sample quality affect the size of the GI in memory and the amount of time taken to render the pre pass. GI sample quality also affects render time for the final pass much more than GI cache detail does, as that primarily affects the pre pass time.

If you're looking for V-Ray-quality architectural GI you'll find that TG 4.0 falls short, but it's not bad for a lot of scenes where you don't need that much detail. If that's what you want from TG, then look forward to Brute Force GI (Path Tracing) coming to Terragen 4 in 2017. That will make a big difference.  8)

Matt
Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

dorianvan

Thank you Matt! Somebody should copy this over to the documentation page.

So, is this correct?
For final rendering, you should always use GISD (both image and anim).
For GI Sample Quality, if you have a scene without architecture, you should use between 2 and 6, depending on how much light bounce quality is needed in the shot.

Is the default of "2" low for GI Cache Detail too? Should 6 also be minimum for architecture or dense foliage?

The sliders for both max out at 6, is there a reason that you can type higher but it caps out at 6?
-Dorian

Matt

As with many settings in Terragen it's fairly arbitrary where the slider ends. Higher values can produce better images in cases where it really matters, but most of the time it's not worth the extra render cost. There isn't anything special about 6 being the slider max, but the higher the slider goes the more it encourages people to use higher settings than they need, leading to unnecessarily long render times and questions about why Terragen is slow. I think about this carefully when choosing the ranges for quality sliders, but it allows you to go higher in case you find it gives you the results you want.

Matt
Just because milk is white doesn't mean that clouds are made of milk.

AP