Author Topic: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?  (Read 8829 times)

Offline Dune

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2018, 06:16:37 AM »
If there's anything I can help with, give me a shout. Time permitting, I have to add.

Offline freedomfries

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2018, 04:39:24 PM »
Thanks for the offer of support. Your interest and feedback is much appreciated. We're rolling out a new "First Scene" document in the wiki in the next couple of days and then we'll be working on revising, updating, and completing other content.

- Oshyan

As a suggestion; you guys could create a tutorial based on the cloud example you created to demonstrate TG4's improved cloud rendering abilities. It's my understanding that it's a complex network, something the average user might not be able to produce, yet we're all wanting to know how. Could be a great way to demonstrate creating complex node networks to produce good results. The content is already built...

Offline WASasquatch

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2018, 07:45:27 PM »
One thing that is a a problem imo and I actually "hate" about this community: Too much "Do this instead, to save on render time and blah blah" instead of like ANY other company and software where they specifically won't sacrifice their intended look for render time, and instead use the scenes for developers to improve their software ;) Like Disney/Pixar extreme scenes that blog down render time that were of course used in the films for their beautiful look, and released free for users and developers to research.

And often what is advised in alternative completely changes the look of what you're doing, or is a completely different approach. It's sad. Unless render time is actually a problem and question like "Hay, it's been rendering for 16 hours and only 4 tiles in" it shouldn't really be discussed. Really looks bad in the discussion threads. When working with Cinema 4D for example, you'll usually get users working with you and your scene to improve it without changing your scene or applying different approaches unless absolutely necessary. I once had a abstract render using the explosion and knife tools that literally killed C4D's renderer, and had a lot of help with developers until a patch was released to handle the extreme verticals and intersection. Rather than telling me to do something else, they worked to improve their software to handle the situation.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 07:48:59 PM by WASasquatch »
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Offline Dune

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2018, 06:13:24 AM »
That's the negative approach. I know I (for one) mentioned stuff like that time and again, but that's to help beginners (and maybe even intermediate users) to get faster results without sacrificing (much) on looks of a render. Many are hobbyists, and don't have a spare computer running many hours on a render. Long render times may put them off using the software, which would be a pity.
So, I wouldn't 'hate' the community for remarks like that if I were you.

Offline WASasquatch

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2018, 06:40:22 AM »
That's the negative approach. I know I (for one) mentioned stuff like that time and again, but that's to help beginners (and maybe even intermediate users) to get faster results without sacrificing (much) on looks of a render. Many are hobbyists, and don't have a spare computer running many hours on a render. Long render times may put them off using the software, which would be a pity.
So, I wouldn't 'hate' the community for remarks like that if I were you.

That's true. I just notice often when I have a specific look I'm trying to obtain sometimes I often get advise to just change it up "on account of" sort of deal rather than helping with the problem. I don't know if this is just because of whats familiar or like you said trying to keep it basic to help other but it sometimes get's frustrating, I guess, more than hate.
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Online bobbystahr

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2018, 01:21:34 PM »
Well as a retiree/hobbiest I find that 90% of what I've learned has been by suggestions to do things in a different way, often simpler and all posted here. I only wish I'd methodically saved to disc all the helpful tips I've got here and by now I'd have a nearly complete How-To manual.....just sayin'
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 03:41:01 PM by bobbystahr »
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Offline Kadri

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2018, 01:30:17 PM »
One thing that is a a problem imo and I actually "hate" about this community: Too much "Do this instead, to save on render time and blah blah"...

My main problem in the past with 3D software was rendering speed and not because of factors like user interface, hard to use, hard to understand etc.

Still kind of is now. Especially when you like animation like me. Render times like 3-4 hours are not much a problem for a still. But when you want to render 500 frames or so it sucks.

The other factor is with so long render times getting good previews is hard too. In Lightwave where you can render a frame in say 10 minutes there are much more iterations you can make in a given time relative to Terragen. There was-is a debate about the new Lightwave 2018 version lately that changed the render engine quite and that render times are too long for example(different engine needs different approach etc.). Not good for users who are accustomed for fast render times.
And there are threads in how to make rendering faster too now. More then the past i think.

I would use Terragen for everything probably if the render times weren't so long.
I think i understand what you mean Jordan but i still think you should still be happy when someone  shows how to render faster in Terragen :)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 01:31:49 PM by Kadri »

Offline WASasquatch

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2018, 05:53:30 PM »
One thing that is a a problem imo and I actually "hate" about this community: Too much "Do this instead, to save on render time and blah blah"...

My main problem in the past with 3D software was rendering speed and not because of factors like user interface, hard to use, hard to understand etc.

Still kind of is now. Especially when you like animation like me. Render times like 3-4 hours are not much a problem for a still. But when you want to render 500 frames or so it sucks.

The other factor is with so long render times getting good previews is hard too. In Lightwave where you can render a frame in say 10 minutes there are much more iterations you can make in a given time relative to Terragen. There was-is a debate about the new Lightwave 2018 version lately that changed the render engine quite and that render times are too long for example(different engine needs different approach etc.). Not good for users who are accustomed for fast render times.
And there are threads in how to make rendering faster too now. More then the past i think.

I would use Terragen for everything probably if the render times weren't so long.
I think i understand what you mean Jordan but i still think you should still be happy when someone  shows how to render faster in Terragen :)

Understanding exactly why TG takes as long as it does, it isn't even a factor for me. If it was, I wouldn't use TG.

To me it really isn't a argument. If it's something you want to do and like doing, you'll do it. I'm not sure how you all survived through the 1990s doing digital rendering. Some of the most basic scenes in movies took MONTHS to render. For example the sandstorm in the Mummy, that was like 6 months? The average Pixar/Disney frame takes 7 hours, still, today, with a average of 24 frames per scecond, though now being upped to 60 frames I've heard. Some of my rendering was so intense on C4D it made developers take note to conversations and redo the renderer to handle the extreme abstract scenes I and a lot of people starting doing and making a gimmick out of C4D once it could handle it (oops).

It's inherently to the software, and when people are making suggestions to save 5 minutes and such, it's just more a insult to the software, especially when the change is subpar.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 05:59:49 PM by WASasquatch »
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Offline Kadri

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2018, 09:23:47 PM »

Give me something like this and i won't complain too Jordan:
https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/18/disney-big-hero-6/

I understand what you say but you don't understand what i am saying as it looks. No problem.

Offline Kadri

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2018, 09:29:35 PM »
...
It's inherently to the software, and when people are making suggestions to save 5 minutes and such, it's just more a insult to the software, especially when the change is subpar.

Except the subpar part, it is absolutely not an insult at all. This i can not understand how you can say that.

Offline WASasquatch

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2018, 04:17:37 AM »

Give me something like this and i won't complain too Jordan:
https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/18/disney-big-hero-6/

I understand what you say but you don't understand what i am saying as it looks. No problem.

I think you illustrated some of my points there. It was rendered on a beta, proprietary renderer (which btw they seemed to have abandoned when it comes to recent films to Moana; and the fact it's page has never been updated since Big Five), and a supercompter which the proprietary software ran on (probably specifically built for cluster), as a test of theory. Cost vs. Profit. Which must not have panned out.

I'm not sure how I'm misunderstanding you, when I'm telling you it's just a subjective topic. Some people don't mind the render time. Like me. I used to stick all my render on a netbook with a Intel Atom and forget them when I had 32bit TG and continue using my normal computer.

When it comes to animation, I think trying to get speed out of a commercial renderer for anything high quality is asking a lot. Once you up to standard resolutions and quality for lighting and stuff it will take a while on most everyones budget computer, let alone budget render computer. This also why there is so much time and research put into RTR engines to do this with a fraction of the hardware with smoke and mirrors, or in the case of UE actually incorporating a RTR ray tracer.

This movie was made in Unreal Engine for example, mind you not even a good example of quality that can be achieved by a long shot:
&feature=youtu.be

Not only can you work in real-time with the editor, but render much faster, sure quality is not Pixar but you see what I mean there when it comes to wanting to render faster and why these tools are becoming popular for animators, and even comes becoming more "animated" like Fortnite having a Disney/Pixar appearance to their characters with animated features.

But there are people like me who don't want to sacrifice quality for render times. Even if animating.

...
It's inherently to the software, and when people are making suggestions to save 5 minutes and such, it's just more a insult to the software, especially when the change is subpar.

Except the subpar part, it is absolutely not an insult at all. This i can not understand how you can say that.

Because sometimes suggestions are obviously of far less quality than even the example you're asking for help on.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 04:20:55 AM by WASasquatch »
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Offline freedomfries

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #71 on: August 06, 2018, 06:54:48 PM »

Give me something like this and i won't complain too Jordan:
https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/18/disney-big-hero-6/

I understand what you say but you don't understand what i am saying as it looks. No problem.

I think you illustrated some of my points there. It was rendered on a beta, proprietary renderer (which btw they seemed to have abandoned when it comes to recent films to Moana; and the fact it's page has never been updated since Big Five), and a supercompter which the proprietary software ran on (probably specifically built for cluster), as a test of theory. Cost vs. Profit. Which must not have panned out.

I'm not sure how I'm misunderstanding you, when I'm telling you it's just a subjective topic. Some people don't mind the render time. Like me. I used to stick all my render on a netbook with a Intel Atom and forget them when I had 32bit TG and continue using my normal computer.

When it comes to animation, I think trying to get speed out of a commercial renderer for anything high quality is asking a lot. Once you up to standard resolutions and quality for lighting and stuff it will take a while on most everyones budget computer, let alone budget render computer. This also why there is so much time and research put into RTR engines to do this with a fraction of the hardware with smoke and mirrors, or in the case of UE actually incorporating a RTR ray tracer.

This movie was made in Unreal Engine for example, mind you not even a good example of quality that can be achieved by a long shot:
&feature=youtu.be

Not only can you work in real-time with the editor, but render much faster, sure quality is not Pixar but you see what I mean there when it comes to wanting to render faster and why these tools are becoming popular for animators, and even comes becoming more "animated" like Fortnite having a Disney/Pixar appearance to their characters with animated features.

But there are people like me who don't want to sacrifice quality for render times. Even if animating.

...
It's inherently to the software, and when people are making suggestions to save 5 minutes and such, it's just more a insult to the software, especially when the change is subpar.

Except the subpar part, it is absolutely not an insult at all. This i can not understand how you can say that.

Because sometimes suggestions are obviously of far less quality than even the example you're asking for help on.


Why is this in a thread about documentation? You're kind of derailing the conversation...

Offline WASasquatch

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #72 on: August 06, 2018, 08:33:14 PM »
Why is this in a thread about documentation? You're kind of derailing the conversation...

I was making a reference to the community documentation which is this here Terragen Discussion forum. Sometimes getting suggestions to just do something different, and entirely not in line with your vision, or of lower quality. Instead of working with what someone wants help with, which also helps tackle the direct problem if it comes down to other people having issues rather than the topic ending dead with a alternative suggestion that, not only isn't of quality of vision, but obviously easy and basic and something someone probably already tried in the beginning.

In fact, ironically your statement ties in with these discussions where the suggestion is off-topic to the question and focus of help needed. Whether lack of understanding the problem, different vision, or effort, or whatever. It's frustrating. Often I'll just start a topic aimed more towards Matt/Oshyan about the functionality of something now instead of help on a problem, cause it usually doesn't end in much help.

Like I've mentioned in the past, majority of Terragen users know nothing about Terragen, including me, after like almost 10 years. Very few real Terragen artists of professional quality. And they don't often add input to documentation due to time, allowance, or what not. Community discussion is often what you find searching online for help or how to do things over even documentation. And that's really all we got here and there are a LOT of dead topics when searching both in forum and google that end in nothing, or the user figuring something out and not sharing after asking for help. Lol

Well as a retiree/hobbiest I find that 90% of what I've learned has been by suggestions to do things in a different way, often simpler and all posted here. I only wish I'd methodically saved to disc all the helpful tips I've got here and by now I'd have a nearly complete How-To manual.....just sayin'

Also Bobby, after going back and trying to find a share I did years ago, I realize there is a list of our posted topics under our profiles. Though not as comprehensive as IPB's or vBulletin's list it seems. No real filters.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 08:38:58 PM by WASasquatch »
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Offline D.A. Bentley

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2018, 12:32:48 AM »
My main wish for the documentation is for whenever you click on the "?" in Terragen it brings you to a web page with detailed info on those options you need help with.

Not that I want an answer here, but I still haven't been able to figure out what "Bounce to the ounce" is under GI Settings / Image Pass.

I think I read Planetside has hired a third person recently that is working on Documentation, but not sure if that happened yet or not.  If so I would be willing to go through TG4 and click on every Question Mark to find where documentation is really needed.  If I can read about what settings do in help docs it saves me a lot of time searching for help on the form, and often times it takes a long time to get questions answered.

Also documentation on settings shouldn't take too long to produce (It's just a matter of dumping info from Matt & Oshyan's heads into HTML).  Just need the appropriate cable.  haha!  The hard part I think is creating "Terragen Technique Tutorials".

Derek

Offline Mid-Knight Acchan

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Re: Is there ever going to be documentation for Terragen?
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2018, 04:31:48 AM »
https://www.planetside.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Terragen_4_Global_Illumination

Bounce to the ounce:
Add light that bounces between the surfaces of the objects approaching the image space. Ambient Occlusion will not do this.

Terragen's wiki has little information and needs to be searched by word in the forum.
Still we can not deny that the information is small ;)