High ongoing cost, relatively low "improvements".

[Prometheus]

Edit: It's always why these sort of things are summed up into "templates" or "Layouts" for frameworks or UIs... Because they don't mean anything really to the functionality and practicality of use, they're just for show. And these things change to as far as what's "In". In the early to end of the 2000s it was light colour tones and colours, since the than we have seen a trend toward dark, and yes, these software have reflected that.
[/quote]

I think you fail to see what I am saying, and I disagree when you say it means nothing ot functionality and practicality of use..I have pointed out the color scheme issue making it hard to work with terragens RTP for shading, lighting and atmosphere visibility.. when you can not properly see what is active and what is not.
Other examples from other software like...Modo using verticle menu tabs, aligned vertikal....things like that matters, I do not like them, blender has it too, Daz 3d as well..while Daz 3d allows you to change that ui to more normal horisontal menu tabs, which I am more comfortable to work with..but that is another story.

I just don´t get your perspective on the Whole UI thing as seemingly being of little importance, we clearly have different views on that.

[WAS]

I'd say, the basics are explained well enough, IMHO, and learn by following threads and asking (specific) questions. It's just not a click and render software.

Not even remotely close. The track record of new users, and users showing work over the years (same users) shows that evident enough.

Not to mention documentation should include multiple examples of use with something that can be used for a lot. And when, like you mentioned, discovered something new, it should be shared in documentation.

[WAS]

Edit: It's always why these sort of things are summed up into "templates" or "Layouts" for frameworks or UIs... Because they don't mean anything really to the functionality and practicality of use, they're just for show. And these things change to as far as what's "In". In the early to end of the 2000s it was light colour tones and colours, since the than we have seen a trend toward dark, and yes, these software have reflected that.

I think you fail to see what I am saying, and I disagree when you say it means nothing ot functionality and practicality of use..I have pointed out the color scheme issue making it hard to work with terragens RTP for shading, lighting and atmosphere visibility.. when you can not properly see what is active and what is not.
Other examples from other software like...Modo using verticle menu tabs, aligned vertikal....things like that matters, I do not like them, blender has it too, Daz 3d as well..while Daz 3d allows you to change that ui to more normal horisontal menu tabs, which I am more comfortable to work with..but that is another story.

I just don´t get your perspective on the Whole UI thing as seemingly being of little importance, we clearly have different views on that.

You're still explaining personal problems, that are inherent to you, not everyone. People have plainly said it doesn't bother them, like me. I can see the preview just fine. And by not seeing what's "active or not" do you mean you cannot use the surface test colours, and correctly see a white border turning orange, or the defined custom colour of borders?

Align vertical with what? You could be technically millions of miles away from your original scene, pop in a planet, and be working on it, to etc. What are things aligning with? There is no real "workspace" in Terragen like other programs. What is aligning vertical? And why is it hard to have an understanding of your world scale and know where things should be?

Again there seems to be a lot of misconception of what Terragen is to begin with.

[Matt]

Prometheus, recently I've had problems pasting long replies. It seems to work better when I break it into smaller replies. It may be some recent change to our server settings.

BTW, the way you are using the quote function, it's attributing text to the wrong people. If you want to reply in the middle of quoting someone, you should close their quote with the /quote tag, then after your reply you can restart theirs again with another quote tag.

[Prometheus]

It seems like you really just want a whole new program. A lot of what you're describing about clouds would be so heavy on the previewer it's just impractical. You wouldn't see anything in real time quickly to be dragging around rotation. So it might as well be rotating the noise by value, and changing the depth and falloffs, using SSS's to redefine a vertical "disc" etc.  And why would a cloud shape, trying to obtain realistic look based on a orientation in the atmosphere, rotate? That's a artistic choice, and not even a common situation in Terragen. I mess around with a lot of clouds, like making hero clouds, and never once though about rotating. Defeats the whole purpose of making my realistic clouds.

With all respect..but all of what you say here makes absolutely no sense, rotating a cloud is i no way interfering with the Realism of a cloud or how it works in real life, it simple turns yourself in the perspective of the viewpoint ..if you were to be on the other side of the cloud if you rotate it 180 degrees, it simply gives you another take on how a cloud would look, but it No way would it brake any so called real life true realism of the cloud or how it should behave.
Artistic choice and common situation?   of course it´s not a common situation, terragen lacks the ability to do so, artistic...it´s semantic..the real worl would care less wether the cloud is rotated in any way...when you tweak clouds, you tweak scale, and altitude to get what You Want..it´s the same with rotation control...I just don´t understand why you are going against this without any decent explenation?

You have never ever once thought of rotating the clouds...well, if the controls are not there..how could you, the question is why you wouldn´t rotate your cloud to get a cloud that matches maybe a photo, rather than what terragen seed values are telling you?  the realism and how it behaves is really irrelevant.

I rotate it all the time in other software, ultimately the software is  a tool you need to control, not let the software create it all for you..then you would for sure end up with crappy pictures.

[Matt]

Which of the Pro-only features do you think should be included in Creative to make it worth considering instead of Professional?

Matt

For me, mesh displacer and spherical camera.

Thanks for the feedback.

[WAS]

It seems like you really just want a whole new program. A lot of what you're describing about clouds would be so heavy on the previewer it's just impractical. You wouldn't see anything in real time quickly to be dragging around rotation. So it might as well be rotating the noise by value, and changing the depth and falloffs, using SSS's to redefine a vertical "disc" etc.  And why would a cloud shape, trying to obtain realistic look based on a orientation in the atmosphere, rotate? That's a artistic choice, and not even a common situation in Terragen. I mess around with a lot of clouds, like making hero clouds, and never once though about rotating. Defeats the whole purpose of making my realistic clouds.

With all respect..but all of what you say here makes absolutely no sense, rotating a cloud is i no way interfering with the Realism of a cloud or how it works in real life, it simple turns yourself in the perspective of the viewpoint ..if you were to be on the other side of the cloud if you rotate it 180 degrees, it simply gives you another take on how a cloud would look, but it No way would it brake any so called real life true realism of the cloud or how it should behave.
Artistic choice and common situation?   of course it´s not a common situation, terragen lacks the ability to do so, artistic...it´s semantic..the real worl would care less wether the cloud is rotated in any way...when you tweak clouds, you tweak scale, and altitude to get what You Want..it´s the same with rotation control...I just don´t understand why you are going against this without any decent explenation?

The physics of clouds will immediately beg to differ with what you're originally explaining. But now you're talking about rotating a camera, not a cloud. And again it seems you're suggesting the previewer, let alone the RTP can keep up. And again, why is it so hard to punch in 3 digits to do this?

[WAS]

Which of the Pro-only features do you think should be included in Creative to make it worth considering instead of Professional?

Matt

I feel they should be indistinguishable besides professional exporting and commercial resale of projects/scenes/renders/videos. Like most every program out there with commercial and non-commercial products. They usually entail commercial features. Not random things that just keep you from creating... also defeats the name "Creative" lol

It's sorta implied in your names to begin with. With TG Creative I should have all features to create what Pro can. But pro, is professional, I can than go and take a 15,000 dollar contract for a movie, and than have that production company continue to gather royalties on the project over time.

[Prometheus]

Edit: It's always why these sort of things are summed up into "templates" or "Layouts" for frameworks or UIs... Because they don't mean anything really to the functionality and practicality of use, they're just for show. And these things change to as far as what's "In". In the early to end of the 2000s it was light colour tones and colours, since the than we have seen a trend toward dark, and yes, these software have reflected that.

I think you fail to see what I am saying, and I disagree when you say it means nothing ot functionality and practicality of use..I have pointed out the color scheme issue making it hard to work with terragens RTP for shading, lighting and atmosphere visibility.. when you can not properly see what is active and what is not.
Other examples from other software like...Modo using verticle menu tabs, aligned vertikal....things like that matters, I do not like them, blender has it too, Daz 3d as well..while Daz 3d allows you to change that ui to more normal horisontal menu tabs, which I am more comfortable to work with..but that is another story.

I just don´t get your perspective on the Whole UI thing as seemingly being of little importance, we clearly have different views on that.

You're still explaining personal problems, that are inherent to you, not everyone. People have plainly said it doesn't bother them, like me. I can see the preview just fine. And by not seeing what's "active or not" do you mean you cannot use the surface test colours, and correctly see a white border turning orange, or the defined custom colour of borders?

Align vertical with what? You could be technically millions of miles away from your original scene, pop in a planet, and be working on it, to etc. What are things aligning with? There is no real "workspace" in Terragen like other programs. What is aligning vertical? And why is it hard to have an understanding of your world scale and know where things should be?

Again there seems to be a lot of misconception of what Terragen is to begin with.

I am explaining issues that are not purely personal, there are complaints on newtek forums as well where they agree mostly, as welll as jwiede here, so you are not accurate about that, besides..what I explain is something that other software recognize..and as such you may recognize that it may not be just a personal perception..though I as a user here with this input may give that appaerance.

as for vertical align, no..you have no idea on what I talk about and continues to talk about something that has no relevance what so ever, I said specificly it was about menus and tabs in the UI and refered to modo and daz and blender, take a look at those ui menus and you´ll understand..it has nothing to do with real workspaces.

and no..there is absolutely no misconception on what Terragen is.

[WAS]

Edit: It's always why these sort of things are summed up into "templates" or "Layouts" for frameworks or UIs... Because they don't mean anything really to the functionality and practicality of use, they're just for show. And these things change to as far as what's "In". In the early to end of the 2000s it was light colour tones and colours, since the than we have seen a trend toward dark, and yes, these software have reflected that.

I think you fail to see what I am saying, and I disagree when you say it means nothing ot functionality and practicality of use..I have pointed out the color scheme issue making it hard to work with terragens RTP for shading, lighting and atmosphere visibility.. when you can not properly see what is active and what is not.
Other examples from other software like...Modo using verticle menu tabs, aligned vertikal....things like that matters, I do not like them, blender has it too, Daz 3d as well..while Daz 3d allows you to change that ui to more normal horisontal menu tabs, which I am more comfortable to work with..but that is another story.

I just don´t get your perspective on the Whole UI thing as seemingly being of little importance, we clearly have different views on that.

You're still explaining personal problems, that are inherent to you, not everyone. People have plainly said it doesn't bother them, like me. I can see the preview just fine. And by not seeing what's "active or not" do you mean you cannot use the surface test colours, and correctly see a white border turning orange, or the defined custom colour of borders?

Align vertical with what? You could be technically millions of miles away from your original scene, pop in a planet, and be working on it, to etc. What are things aligning with? There is no real "workspace" in Terragen like other programs. What is aligning vertical? And why is it hard to have an understanding of your world scale and know where things should be?

Again there seems to be a lot of misconception of what Terragen is to begin with.

I am explaining issues that are not purely personal, there are complaints on newtek forums as well where they agree mostly, as welll as jwiede here, so you are not accurate about that, besides..what I explain is something that other software recognize..and as such you may recognize that it may not be just a personal perception..though I as a user here with this input may give that appaerance.

as for vertikal align, no..you have no idea on what I talk about and continues to talk about something that has no relevance what so ever, I said specificly it was about meny and tabs in the UI and refered to modo and daz and blender, take a look at those ui menus and you´ll understand..it has nothing to do with real workspaces.

and no..there is absolutely no misconception on what Terragen is.

Please, explain yourself thoroughly at every point. Please provide clear examples of what "others do" and how TG can do it. Cause you are not making sense, or making yourself clear. Throwing out vague terminology THAT IS used in other programs, such as aligning objects to viewport, etc.

And yes, you do have a misconception regarding Terragen, you inherently came into this discussion not understanding how the workflow is, and stating things contrary to normal workflow because you want it like other programs you are familiar with. For example the UI thing which is proprietary and certainly made to make you favor types over others. That's why you continuously use "Vue" as an example, and even had to rebuttal with other software when I made this point. You are bias because marketing worked on you. In reality the UI is irrelevant to true productivity. It's just a personal taste. Even when you have a hard time seeing. That's just your personal struggle. Sure programs try to conform to people like this, but not all, and not all are as concerned with it. No one complains about CAD software building our modern infrastructure IRL. This reminds me of all the people over the year complaining about SolidWorks UI. It has never changed to encompass requests like "Please give us a dark UI" cause why? Really why? "smoothness" cause something is dark is personal, subjective, and not a good argument. I like light GUI myself. That's direct opposition, and is shared by many. And if you didn't know, scientifically, dark UIs are bad for you eyes because of the contrast of your focal area. It's like reading bright text on a dark background. It's not healthy for the eyes.

[Matt]

Guys, I think you are both speaking different languages to each other. Can I please ask that if you don't understand what someone is saying, then ask them to clarify, rather than telling them they're wrong or that their opinion doesn't matter? 

[WAS]

Guys, I think you are both speaking different languages to each other. Can I please ask that if you don't understand what someone is saying, then ask them to clarify, rather than trying to explain why they're wrong? 

Being told you don't understand is a far cry from you understanding what you understand and reply. Lol You can't know you don't understand if you understand what you understand. xD

Why I just asked for clear examples.

[Prometheus]

I have now found the node functions for this about rotating cloud layers..look at the image..

The functions are there and it is possible, but as I mentioned before, most other software does this with direct rotational acess,such as vue..which makes it a breeze to use, nodes are powerful..but not when it comes at the expense of having the software not capable acessing directly the more basic important functions.

Vue even has opengl direct gizmo rotational control, for hero clouds, as full global clouds.

It proves it is possible, and nothing in how terragen simulates the world is preventing this.
It is the transform input shader.

I will try and record a demonstration on how Lightwave and vue does this much simpler, thus more effective.

[WAS]

I have now found the node functions for this about rotating cloud layers..look at the image..

The functions are there and it is possible, but as I mentioned before, most other software does this with direct rotational acess,such as vue..which makes it a breeze to use, nodes are powerful..but not when it comes at the expense of having the software not capable acessing directly the more basic important functions.

Vue even has opengl direct gizmo rotational control, for hero clouds, as full global clouds.

Try inputing incremental steps and watch that renderer keep up (if you don't crash). It's jut not practical to have rotation dragger or button to be watching the results... Especially with working with V3 clouds. My system is still supposedly within TG's System Requirements and clouds take several moments before even the first phase of the preview shows. And there is a bit of computation going on to get that first phase. Me dragging around a slider or something, I'd crash, like I do a lot with cloud work. Lol

[Prometheus]

I have now found the node functions for this about rotating cloud layers..look at the image..

The functions are there and it is possible, but as I mentioned before, most other software does this with direct rotational acess,such as vue..which makes it a breeze to use, nodes are powerful..but not when it comes at the expense of having the software not capable acessing directly the more basic important functions.

Vue even has opengl direct gizmo rotational control, for hero clouds, as full global clouds.

Try inputing incremental steps and watch that renderer keep up (if you don't crash). It's jut not practical to have rotation dragger or button to be watching the results... Especially with working with V3 clouds. My system is still supposedly within TG's System Requirements and clouds take several moments before even the first phase of the preview shows. And there is a bit of computation going on to get that first phase. Me dragging around a slider or something, I'd crash, like I do a lot with cloud work. Lol

There is absolutely nothing wrong on adding incremental steps, it renders just fine in previewer, and i can watch the rotation in the renderer iterate update decently fast.

Now you are talking about dragging and crashing, now you are assuming..there is no slider or gizmo to try this out.

Maybe it is your system, I do this all the time in Houdini, Lightwave, vue...no problems at all, no crash and decently fast preview updates.

If you suggest Terragen would crash..then I suggest they need to make sure it doesn´t ..or you may need to update to a better computer system?

Several moments for you?  what ..are you not activating the RTP sýstem?

And as seen on my posted image, you have to use guessworks in order to know what axis you are using for entered values, as I said..a shortcoming of the Terragen UI.

and for the record when it  concerns misunderstandings..I am swedish so some things may get lost in translation and understanding the way I describe things, or understand things.

For the record about the various cloud layer versions, and as WASasquatch pointed out, this was a try on the older cloud layers, not the easy cloud layers..so that may cause trouble...but I have yet to figure out the connections there.