Default Scene: Strange Behavior

Started by PabloMack, September 30, 2018, 12:17:00 pm

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PabloMack

September 30, 2018, 12:17:00 pm Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 01:35:56 pm by PabloMack
I just started to experiment with TG 4.1.25 to understand the default scene. When you first run it there is this blank grid-like thing that masks the view of the mountains for the lower 3/4 of the preview window. The default scene didn't used to be like this. I think it may be because of the "Simple shape shader 01" that is at the top of the Terrain node chain. Anyway, if I just select this node and delete it, the mountains go away and I am presuming that the planet is just flat even though the other nodes are still intact and connected as before. However, if I first disconnect the output of the "Simple shape shader 01" from the right input (Mask shader) of the "Fractal terrain 01" node so that it is isolated, then the mountains are still there but they are higher and the grid is still there and I can see through the grid to the mountains. I can then delete the "Simple shape shader 01" and the grid goes away but the mountains are still there and remain unchanged. What is going on when I just delete the connected "Simple shape shader 01" without disconnecting it first? Is seems it must do some damage (i.e. make unintentional changes) in the other nodes that it is connected to. It is like ripping out a curtain and the supports are damaged (not just the curtain itself) because it is still connected. Strange.

Default: [attach=1]
Just Delete: [attach=2]
Disconnect First: [attach=3]
Disconnect then Delete: [attach=4]
Rendered: [attach=5]

My main question is "Why does the terrain go away when I just delete the "Simple shape shader 01"?
Another question is "Why can I not see the mountains through the grid with the unaltered default scene?"
Another question is "Why is the grid still visible when the "Simple shape shader 01" is disconnected but not yet deleted?"

WAS

September 30, 2018, 01:59:15 pm #1 Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 02:01:30 pm by WASasquatch
When you just delete a shader that is plugged, the shader that it is plugged into doesn't take notice of the deletion. If you head on into your Terrain fractal shader, you'll notice that "Mask by shader" is still checked.

When the SSS is disconnected, it is still located at the position indicated in it's shader. You need to disable it (Select Shader -> D; or uncheck Enable in the shader).

That grid I think you're referring to is the SSS combination bounding box and shape edges. You can also disable this in the Simple Shape Shader.

luvsmuzik

September 30, 2018, 02:17:30 pm #2 Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 02:36:14 pm by luvsmuzik
In addition, default camera position is 0, 10, -30 and when SSS is enabled you see the cross hairs of the bounding box for the SSS.

I have elevated my camera and angled right and down to show you the screenshot of the red edge of the SSS circle encompassed is the 10000 meter square bounding box.

In the classic version when we generated terrain, we used fractal generation in a different manner as you recall. Then when setting water level, remember how you used to have to fiddle with the elevation, sometimes 0 was still underground, depending on your terrain. Then you would update your maps .

Also, if you take your camera down (- key on compass navigator) you will see the little red icon, telling you you are under the SSS, but your masked terrain is there under the SSS. If the SSS is disabled, you do not usually get that red icon when descending at default camera position.

PabloMack

September 30, 2018, 05:18:06 pm #3 Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 08:10:51 pm by PabloMack
Quote from: WASasquatch on September 30, 2018, 01:59:15 pmWhen you just delete a shader that is plugged, the shader that it is plugged into doesn't take notice of the deletion. If you head on into your Terrain fractal shader, you'll notice that "Mask by shader" is still checked.


This is good to know. I guess this could be cleaned up by a scan of nodes connected to it before deletion. I'm a programmer and I use a lot of my own software so I'm used to immediately fixing things like this when I come across them. Gives me an appreciation for the perspective of "end users".

Quote from: WASasquatch on September 30, 2018, 01:59:15 pmThat grid I think you're referring to is the SSS combination bounding box and shape edges. You can also disable this in the Simple Shape Shader.


Apparently those check boxes were added since my last update. Only discovered recently that my TG4 coverage ran out of time. It used to be that if you bought version N.XXX you were covered until they went to the next major version (N+1).XXX. Looks like they don't do that any more. Must be because [edited] Jo left. But I can see the terrain if I select Renderers view so its not much of a problem.

[attach=1]

Oshyan

Ironically wrote an entire documentation page about this a few days ago: https://planetside.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=The_Default_Scene_Explained

Also... Matt is still the owner of the company and the software architect/basically only programmer... You seem to have some strange ideas about where things are at?

- Oshyan

Dune


PabloMack

October 01, 2018, 08:01:44 pm #6 Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 09:55:38 pm by PabloMack
Quote from: Dune on October 01, 2018, 01:57:44 amMaybe Pablo meant Jo...


Thanks for the correction. I think I did mean Jo. I have trouble remember names unless I meet people face-to-face.
It's hard to do on a forum. Having an avatar that is your own picture helps. I belong to so many forums I get dizzy.

Quote from: Oshyan on October 01, 2018, 12:11:04 amYou seem to have some strange ideas about where things are at?


If I wrote something that is in error, please correct me.

I read the Wiki on the default scene. I don't think it explains the quirk about how deleting nodes when
they are still connected leaves dangling inputs. That was the cause of the most puzzling behavior.
WASasquatch explained it to me and now I understand. Your help is much appreciated. Looks like WASasquatch
morphed from a Wookiee to Errol Flynn judging by his avatar.

Oshyan

The "quirk" when you delete is not really specific to the Default Scene at all, which is why it's not covered in that part of the documentation.

Jo is mostly not involved anymore, that's true, though he still handles Mac builds and helps with some minor maintenance. He was not responsible for the core of Terragen however (that's Matt), and we are also planning to hire at least one more developer in the reasonably near future.

- Oshyan

PabloMack

Quote from: Oshyan on October 02, 2018, 06:01:49 pmThe "quirk" when you delete is not really specific to the Default Scene at all, which is why it's not covered in that part of the documentation.


Yeah, I didn't expect the quirk to be described in the Default Scene description. I just wanted you to know that I wasn't just being totally lazy and complain without reading the wiki on it. I studied the Default Scene and didn't just take your word for "why it works". I deleted nodes and disconnected nodes and reconnected them to see the difference. I don't think you can have hands-on understanding for how things work without doing this to see the difference each part makes. It just threw me for a loop when disconnecting the input didn't give me the same result as deleting the node that goes into it. I thought I was in the twilight zone.

Oshyan

Ah yes, thanks for that explanation, I definitely understand. In fact I very much *want* people to be experimenting and "learning by doing", based on and assisted by the docs, of course. :)

- Oshyan