Author Topic: More Contests  (Read 665 times)

Offline WASasquatch

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2018, 06:11:06 AM »
I mean I have a friend working on his second game project right now with World Machine and Substance Designer and Unreal Asset Store alone, showing their equal relevance to someone in that field, which is huuuge. Granted his use of WM over SD is muuuch smaller, at least I imagine it is unless he's incredibly OCD about art like I am.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 06:14:06 AM by WASasquatch »
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Offline Oshyan

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2018, 06:55:47 AM »
I could go on point by point, but there's, er, no point. All I'll say is that my real point re: Substance vs. World Machine is the size of the communities around them and relative level of discussion and use. Engagement, that's what you were originally talking about in posting this thread, right? So go look at the Substance forums and Facebook groups vs. the same for World Machine. See what I mean?

Forums:
World Machine: 13,555 Posts in 2,819 Topics by 14,624 Members for the *entire* forum, for all time. It started in 2006 (I was there :D).
Substance: They don't provide the same summary of stats World Machine does unfortunately, but the Substance Painter discussion forum alone has 14,002 posts, and a quick skim of the other categories shows at least 40,000 total posts, probably a good deal more. First post in January 2013, "Welcome to our forums". So in 5 years they have had at least 3x as much discussion as WM had in 12.

OK, how about Facebook:
World Machine: 1,300 FB likes, primary group has 875 members, 17 discussion threads since Sep 1st.
Substance: 45,000 FB likes, primary group has 1787 members, 68 posts in the last 30 days alone.

So if nothing else the *methods* you're using to try to gauge popularity (Google trends and PV) just don't correlate to the reality of what we're discussing here, IMO.

- Oshyan

Offline WASasquatch

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2018, 07:46:20 AM »
I could go on point by point, but there's, er, no point. All I'll say is that my real point re: Substance vs. World Machine is the size of the communities around them and relative level of discussion and use. Engagement, that's what you were originally talking about in posting this thread, right? So go look at the Substance forums and Facebook groups vs. the same for World Machine. See what I mean?

Forums:
World Machine: 13,555 Posts in 2,819 Topics by 14,624 Members for the *entire* forum, for all time. It started in 2006 (I was there :D).
Substance: They don't provide the same summary of stats World Machine does unfortunately, but the Substance Painter discussion forum alone has 14,002 posts, and a quick skim of the other categories shows at least 40,000 total posts, probably a good deal more. First post in January 2013, "Welcome to our forums". So in 5 years they have had at least 3x as much discussion as WM had in 12.

OK, how about Facebook:
World Machine: 1,300 FB likes, primary group has 875 members, 17 discussion threads since Sep 1st.
Substance: 45,000 FB likes, primary group has 1787 members, 68 posts in the last 30 days alone.

So if nothing else the *methods* you're using to try to gauge popularity (Google trends and PV) just don't correlate to the reality of what we're discussing here, IMO.

- Oshyan

Nope not at all. My points are about a devloping software and increasing community engagement through time old means, making things engaging beyond a mass of help topics (and great deal complaining about features and  quirks tarnishing results online about features) and some images from mostly the same users.

You also are stretching targeted audiences and the whole use of World Machine. It's never been an active "community". This is about it's popularity over the an option for procedural terrain.

Substance Designer inherently has more pop-culture trend because again, just like it's name being more of a unicorn than World Machine inherently, it covers faaar more than World Machine does. World Machine doesn't provide beautiful renders... It's a heightmap software with specific end-use outside the software, including Substance Designer textured terrain assets on Unreal.

You should go on point by point because so far you're showing me a clear misunderstanding of current search engine functionality, as well as consumer markets. I

While I am talking about bare bones trends, like a person going out and searching the software they heard about, and their main websites. Statistics based on all this real world data don't just lie, especially what I and hundreds of thousands of web developers pay for to gauge their reach and SEO. There would be lawsuits already inherently considering our technical fields. Lol

Substance Designer only has a PV (not hits) 1-2k above World Machine. This is their gateway website through the most likely destination through thr trends I am monitoring. 

Also World Machine is dirt simple to understand out of the box. Made plenty of great terrains at school for everyone without even a glance at a tutorial. I had never even encountered a reason to search "how to" for World Machine. It's all straight forward and almost literally explained via titles.

This is like saying Adobe community should be massive considering it's age AND popularity everywhere, but it actually isn't all that big, especially compared to competing sources, that's because Photoshop is straight forward, it's actual tutorials and methods  people look for which their community doesn't facilitate well with plain links and no images.

Also what the heck does post counts even have to do with this convo? TG has 252,962 the majority of which are "How the heck do you ____" lol The post ratios could be for better or worse content wise. I already got almost 3k of those posts since 2014 when I finally decided to join up and a lot of are help topics. 

And again the reason why World Machine is not far behind Substance Designer/Painter as far as actual site PV and WM is ahead of SD as far as trends is because Unreal Engine is simply larger than Substance Designers community, and the number one viewed tutorial for landscaping in Unreal is for World Machine, literally millions of hits and double the PV of SD. That's because Games are the biggest end-result of 3D modeling, and modern games employ realistic landscapes, even in cartoon worlds, and you can't have good game without terrain... and painting it brings you back to PS2/Xbox 1 era real quick.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 09:29:56 AM by WASasquatch »
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Offline PabloMack

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2018, 09:16:08 PM »
Everyone knows Facebook is the internet.  ::)  j/k.

I guess I don't have Internet yet. So what am I using now? Remember the BBS days?

Offline Matt

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2018, 09:20:10 PM »
Everyone knows Facebook is the internet.  ::)  j/k.

I guess I don't have Internet yet. So what am I using now? Remember the BBS days?

Witchcraft!!  :)
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Offline WASasquatch

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2018, 10:30:52 PM »
Everyone knows Facebook is the internet.  ::)  j/k.

I guess I don't have Internet yet. So what am I using now? Remember the BBS days?

There are still a couple left that you literally have to dial into physically if you don't use a gateway.
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Offline archonforest

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2018, 02:03:51 PM »
How do you guys getting these stats? Which site is this?
Never mind. Find it.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 02:05:29 PM by archonforest »

Offline Danny

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2018, 01:10:12 PM »
Planetside Software should host more contests. Maybe 4 a year to divide up the quarters with a annual "big show" being one of them. I've been going over the forums, and data I can find online regarding traffic online and it seems a lot of activity coincides with contests. But, with one contest a year, that said contests subject matter may not peak the interest of everyone to partake, or even really take a look. More contests + subjects = more peak interest in TG software.
Even with a modest amount of contests and huge prizes there are only 25 entries, so I wouldn't expect much of 4 a year. For users to spend enough serious time in a contest you are almost obligatory to offer prizes. I don't think many companies would do so. So I'm not very enthusiastic.
Yes, it's too bad all TG related activity has gone to FB, while this is (for me) the main area to be regarding TG. Maybe host a contest on FB, but you MUST post WIP's here  :P

Group,
 I have to agree with Dune on this, although I would love to see more challenges and wouldn't mind doing the work, there isn't a demand for it. We have had Roadside in 2013 (19 entries), Iceland 2015 (28 entries) and Cliff in 2018 (27 entries). I am glad to see the lurkers are out during challenge time, but the fact remains for whatever reason ... they are not jumping in. Jordan mentioned during this time a majority of this traffic goes to NWDA's facebook page, realize they are directed there from dozens of NWDA Challenge announcements on all social media outlets, digital art communities, LinkedIn, Press releases and Broadcasts from NWDA's contact list. So that is the reason for the spike.
   A little background info on Terragen & NWDA's facebook presence, NWDA's FB started in 2012 as a advertisement page for Planetside and the Shop and remains as such. The 3d landscaping group started as a "Terragen vs Vue" page which was tanking so I opened it up to a broader audience, that group is actually doing quite well and serves as a place where all Landscape junkies can share their work with any program, that said there are only 1-2 Terragen posts a month there. The Terragen group was created by an independent user in 2015 which I linked NWDAs page to. Now on both these pages there are only about 4-6 TG users 'occasionally' posting there so the notion that there is a parallel Terragen universe keeping users away from the forums is incorrect. They still serve as a Terragen announcement and advertisement page with a couple of posts nothing more nothing less. Facebook is a huge tool, not using it in today's social media dependent world would be silly.

I would like to mention that NWDA will be launching something that I am sure will be very beneficial to the community. This new learning outlet will be on NWDA's mainsite and will be a massive resource IF the community gets involved. More to come on this..
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 01:37:04 PM by Danny »

Offline Dune

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2018, 02:34:32 PM »
Good to know that there is no real parallel Terragen universe keeping users away from the forums  ;D I always thought differently.

Offline WASasquatch

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2018, 06:12:40 PM »

Group,
 I have to agree with Dune on this, although I would love to see more challenges and wouldn't mind doing the work, there isn't a demand for it. We have had Roadside in 2013 (19 entries), Iceland 2015 (28 entries) and Cliff in 2018 (27 entries). I am glad to see the lurkers are out during challenge time, but the fact remains for whatever reason ... they are not jumping in. Jordan mentioned during this time a majority of this traffic goes to NWDA's facebook page, realize they are directed there from dozens of NWDA Challenge announcements on all social media outlets, digital art communities, LinkedIn, Press releases and Broadcasts from NWDA's contact list. So that is the reason for the spike.

I'll point out, that's exactly why small businesses run contests, to create demand, for their product, and overall hearsay interest. TG comes off as a enterprise solution right down to lack documentation and PR. In fact, NWDA is it's only real PR beyond change notes....

I would like to mention that NWDA will be launching something that I am sure will be very beneficial to the community. This new learning outlet will be on NWDA's mainsite and will be a massive resource IF the community gets involved. More to come on this..

Interesting, I'd be interested to learn what you mean.

----

I'd like to also interject you're all going on your personal opinions regarding your own work and it's worth, not from a real public relations and web community aspect. Heck look

Look at Blender Guru... it's had mass success with it's contests (which helped build it's community... again), which serves as a master gallery of fine art. They didn't start doing prizes until they were able (Same for BlenderNation with a old, but used to be the most popular F1 challenge). This same model as seen all over the internet. CG Society did similar back when I used it over a decade ago, no prizes. All community fun to start.

So far I see only personal opinion in defense which is somewhat void in a objective analysis regarding community development, and the wrong type of thinking in general. You have to think like everyone you don't know, the masses. What does the average person think when he first comes across TG website or the Community? (The verdict isn't good..) etc. 

And it's kinda odd, considering all this conversation, it seems the number one thing Matt should be thinking about is how to raise interest. By discussions here it seems like not many people even buy TG besides those that already know it, mainly cause the exposure of TG limits itself via alot, not least of which is it's intimidating posturing as a commercial enterprise asset without even having a legitimate foothold. TG licenses itself could be prizes (even limited time licenses for specific use).



I mean, I'm poor, have no money, and ran contests off my second hand give-aways, and was able to create an anime themed digital art community with over 2 million users and eventually end in lawsuits from FUNimation and Pioneer Video because we're more popular than actual anime distributors (and shady stuff like being the first large streamer before YouTube even fully opoened). But no one would have ever joined the community if there wasn't contests. We even started the website on a contest, all for a poster I made in Photoshop.... We have over 4 thousand users, and roughly 2,000 active in the first month. This all in 2004-2005 when getting on search engines, and being found, was all manual work and networking. And the only reason to join at that time, was a contest, and an empty forum. We had hardly any art resources, no anime reviews, and no streaming yet. Eventually i gave away stuff like all my original Pioneer Dragon Ball Z Movies, a original Bowser plushie from easily 90s... I mean, all junk.

Still closed the site with over 2 million users, over 15,000 active.

The game Mesozoica held contests just to get a species in the game that was the winner, and had thousands of entries when they had no community or even kickstarter support yet.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 06:39:39 PM by WASasquatch »
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Offline Danny

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2018, 12:39:31 PM »
NWDA is it's only real PR beyond change notes....


 :-X

Offline zaxxon

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2018, 04:16:26 PM »
I'd like to hear more about your plans Danny, but I'm sure you'll keep us all updated as things progress  :). I've worked on images for three NWDA contests, and posted two entries. Also, posted an entry in the TG VR contest  (won third place and I'm still awaiting the promised large VR image  ;)). From this entrant's perspective: contests are a lot of work and are very distracting from other projects. There is a work vs reward aspect that would limit how many I would be willing to enter. E-on used to run one major contest a year (which I have reason to believe will resume soon). Great prizes and a knowledgeable jury made a strong lure to attract entrants. I'd be up for one TG contest a year.

Back to Danny's 'hint'. I've recently been running thru a number of major DCC software packages to see and evaluate their additions to environment creation. The thing that jumps out at you is the large number of available video tutorials. The 'manual' has become less and less a factor in learning the software. Granted, the manual serves as a reference resource, but for me at least, it is the number of tutorials covering as many aspects of the program that promotes understanding that I'm searching out. Indeed, a significant factor in which programs I intend to add to my toolkit are which apps have the most and best tutorials. The sources ranging from Youtube, Vimeo, Company sponsored, and my new favorite: Patreon, are numerous. I believe these channels really do make a difference in what software people ultimately choose.

Stepping into the "Data Analysis" topic (with fear and trembling). An anecdotal saying  from my Corporate Marketing days: 50% of advertising works, but what 50%?  Equating 'hits' with inquiries leading to purchase and use seems problematic to me, but then "Data Analysis" is not something I can claim any expertise in.  For practical logic however, consider that 'hits' can be topical as well as being focused evaluation. For example: World Machine's chief guy, Stephen Schmidt, 'disappeared' from the scene for over a year generating a lot of traffic online as to what was up. Another: E-on thru being acquired by Bentley Systems and suffering a catastrophic website hack has been without a web presence and upgrades for some time now, how has that impacted the 'hit' parade? I'll leave all of this high level cogitation to the folks who spend time calculating "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin".  :)

Offline WASasquatch

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Re: More Contests
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2018, 06:16:58 PM »
I'd like to hear more about your plans Danny, but I'm sure you'll keep us all updated as things progress  :). I've worked on images for three NWDA contests, and posted two entries. Also, posted an entry in the TG VR contest  (won third place and I'm still awaiting the promised large VR image  ;)). From this entrant's perspective: contests are a lot of work and are very distracting from other projects. There is a work vs reward aspect that would limit how many I would be willing to enter. E-on used to run one major contest a year (which I have reason to believe will resume soon). Great prizes and a knowledgeable jury made a strong lure to attract entrants. I'd be up for one TG contest a year.

Back to Danny's 'hint'. I've recently been running thru a number of major DCC software packages to see and evaluate their additions to environment creation. The thing that jumps out at you is the large number of available video tutorials. The 'manual' has become less and less a factor in learning the software. Granted, the manual serves as a reference resource, but for me at least, it is the number of tutorials covering as many aspects of the program that promotes understanding that I'm searching out. Indeed, a significant factor in which programs I intend to add to my toolkit are which apps have the most and best tutorials. The sources ranging from Youtube, Vimeo, Company sponsored, and my new favorite: Patreon, are numerous. I believe these channels really do make a difference in what software people ultimately choose.

Stepping into the "Data Analysis" topic (with fear and trembling). An anecdotal saying  from my Corporate Marketing days: 50% of advertising works, but what 50%?  Equating 'hits' with inquiries leading to purchase and use seems problematic to me, but then "Data Analysis" is not something I can claim any expertise in.  For practical logic however, consider that 'hits' can be topical as well as being focused evaluation. For example: World Machine's chief guy, Stephen Schmidt, 'disappeared' from the scene for over a year generating a lot of traffic online as to what was up. Another: E-on thru being acquired by Bentley Systems and suffering a catastrophic website hack has been without a web presence and upgrades for some time now, how has that impacted the 'hit' parade? I'll leave all of this high level cogitation to the folks who spend time calculating "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin".  :)

I be sure to limit my area of review to usually that week/month. Before that is irrelevant really. And it's not hits. These are pageviews which indicates (standardly) an actual surfing user, not just a page being accessed creating a hit. It records a single user IP/Browser data as a unique visitor. Hits could be from any device triggering that count that may not even be a browser (for example, I can socket pages and that would create hits, but not a pageview).

The issue is that again WM has a direct use in the gaming industry. Every person who evers picks up Unreal Engine 4 will be looking at world Machine tutorial and give it a try. And sorry, but gaming industry is far larger than just 3d modelings or movies. Everyone and their son are trying to get into gaming that have a presence online it seems like.

Also you said it yourself. Your projects would be interfered with which again brings us full circle with personal bias. This doesn't represent anyone but you. Certainly not me who literally develops in TG with the purpose of creating examples for others while I learn and wait for proper documentation and methodology.

People's time is worth whatever they think. And as mentioned when the incentive is the software there will be peek interest.

I won't mention how many illegal downloads there are but this website has tons back to TG2 And they have toooons of "thanks" from the community and downloads. This is where 90% of TG artwork comes from on devientart (I assume). Illegal use.

I'd much rather these people be playing with the freeware with hopes purchasing, even winning, a TG license. There is so much TG art out there. Not affiliated with this community because the real focus on TG is a illegal community. Vs the hundreds of them we are nothing. A pirate community is more interested in TG. Lol Lots of potential out there without even being the legit source. Not a good thing too.

Its sad to know a lot of TG interest is a priate community and their love of the software sharing and posting on DA.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 06:41:14 PM by WASasquatch »
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