Author Topic: Dates  (Read 29586 times)

Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Dates
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2008, 07:31:15 PM »
That accommodation that you mention might be true in how they talk to their customer base, though id Software has a pretty good communication venue.  But, this accommodation appears to be missing the mark with the actual release and marketing of the product.  I actually only bought TG2 to get a final product by the end of 2007.  Many here have.  I understood waiting a few weeks, even months, while they worked on something.  But, now it's been 6 months and that without a real compass on which way we're going.  From a paying customer who hasn't made money from TG2, this is not accommodating.

Accommodation would have been a timely release and it also would have meant clarification about how much longer that actually meant, when it went sour.  As of now, we have no real clue, except promises.  I can see why you don't feel burnt.  You made your money back.  Many here haven't.


Planetside have a been a trillion times more accommodating to the forum than most companies would be IMHO, and I think a balance has tipped just a bit too much the wrong way. Then when they understandably do keep stuff under wraps, which is strictly speaking commercial information, there's a riot.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 11:56:44 PM by calico »
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Offline Oshyan

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Re: Dates
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2008, 07:41:30 PM »
Tell me, Oshyan, how this is really different that the last missed 1.0.  You see, I never bought that for the same reason I wouldn't buy this now, if I knew there wouldn't be an actual due date.  Can you see the whole industry going this way - telling your customers to keep waiting, but I really mean it this time?  I just wonder how anyone here can keep just thinking Planetside is just believable, no matter what you do.
All I can say is that things are very different now than they were in the TG 0.9 days, and that TG2 *will* reach a final release. But there is nothing I can do or say at this point to actually prove that. Only time and results will tell. Your frustration with that fact is understandable, and if you are uncomfortable waiting to find out if we will really come through, you can request a refund.

Had we known it would take this long we no doubt would have started pre-purchases at a later date. But I still believe it is a valid approach to funding development, provided your customers are properly informed of what they're getting, and provided it is not initiated too far off from final release, or if it is that those who do choose to pre-purchase are made aware that there is no set date for the final product. This is not an approach that is unique to Planetside, we were certainly not the first to try it. Perhaps we should have learned more from the lessons of those before us, but in the end it was successful for others like Maxwell (which *has* reached final product status and continues to be developed), and it will be successful here, despite the mistakes that have been made.

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Offline PG

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Re: Dates
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2008, 08:05:20 PM »
The one thing I'd like to point out is that there is, and to my recollection, never has been a release date for the "GOLD" product, sure we've had about a billion suggestions of when that could be but I generally take those sorts of stab-in-the-dark-with-a-usb-stick guesses with a pinch of arsenic, and the day I genuinely believe that a piece of software is released on the day people said it would be is the day I stick my underwear on my head and call myself Loony McSpackypants. The reason I brought up Ubisoft is because they're a prime example of a company who has years of release experience and still manage to cock it up EVERY SINGLE TIME. So I heartily encourage you to take your 100 back and give it a try, I'll even be your first prepurchaser and throw rocks at your window till you release your product and if your preparing yourself to write a scathing reply illustrating how useless that approach would be on my part then congratulations because you've finally understood my point.
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Offline JohnnyBoy

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Re: Dates
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2008, 10:09:36 PM »
I'm sorry you feel that way, rest assured that every comment or PM you post in the future will be ignored. Anything I post will in no way relate to any comments you make.

Best regards, John

Who the hell do you think you are, dude?  This is absolutely none of your business.  I didn't pay you and I don't need your stupid comments.


I have to say that these criticisms are way over the top. We already have access to at least 90% of the promised product and most of what is missing are things like a cleaned up UI, SDK, documentation, animation editor. I would hate to see what would happen if you ordered a hamburger and it was missing the pickle. :)

Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Dates
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2008, 11:45:40 PM »
Remember, I'm not doubting you....well, er...sort of.  But, I'm waiting.  For now.

As for super-early testers, maybe you could give a select few of these TG3 for free.   :o  I still don't like the idea of paying when it is so raw.  Maybe at Beta stage, but for me - not Alpha.

I appreciate your gracious response.  Just like Jo and Matt. 


...you can request a refund.

Had we known it would take this long we no doubt would have started pre-purchases at a later date.
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Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Dates
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2008, 11:47:15 PM »
PG, I know this makes you feel better, but it's really useless to say this stuff to me.  I'm actually trying to be helpful.  I don't have any time for nonsense.


The one thing I'd like to point out is that there is, and to my recollection, never has been a release date for the "GOLD" product, sure we've had about a billion suggestions of when that could be but I generally take those sorts of stab-in-the-dark-with-a-usb-stick guesses with a pinch of arsenic, and the day I genuinely believe that a piece of software is released on the day people said it would be is the day I stick my underwear on my head and call myself Loony McSpackypants. The reason I brought up Ubisoft is because they're a prime example of a company who has years of release experience and still manage to cock it up EVERY SINGLE TIME. So I heartily encourage you to take your 100 back and give it a try, I'll even be your first prepurchaser and throw rocks at your window till you release your product and if your preparing yourself to write a scathing reply illustrating how useless that approach would be on my part then congratulations because you've finally understood my point.
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Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Dates
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2008, 11:53:52 PM »
It really isn't your business to tell me what I'm doing with my own money.  What you said doesn't make any sense.  Maybe you have been using a different product than I have, but the Alpha needs to be a long way from the final.

I don't have time for this.



I'm sorry you feel that way, rest assured that every comment or PM you post in the future will be ignored. Anything I post will in no way relate to any comments you make.

Best regards, John

Who the hell do you think you are, dude?  This is absolutely none of your business.  I didn't pay you and I don't need your stupid comments.


I have to say that these criticisms are way over the top. We already have access to at least 90% of the promised product and most of what is missing are things like a cleaned up UI, SDK, documentation, animation editor. I would hate to see what would happen if you ordered a hamburger and it was missing the pickle. :)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 11:31:09 AM by calico »
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Offline Mid-Knight Acchan

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Re: Dates
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2008, 03:34:40 AM »
I think the pre-purchase to be a stock.
When I invest it in the thing which is not a finished product, and TG2 was completed, it becomes the property.

I cannot deny that I am over a fixed date.

However,

Do not you believe it?
It is important that I talk.
Exchange of opinions and martial arts offer are duty of the PS.
Because we are stockholders.  ;)

The developer wants you to concentrate all energy on production above all.

I wait for TP4 for pleasure. :-*

Offline PG

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Re: Dates
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2008, 06:02:25 PM »
PG, I know this makes you feel better, but it's really useless to say this stuff to me.  I'm actually trying to be helpful.  I don't have any time for nonsense.


The one thing I'd like to point out is that there is, and to my recollection, never has been a release date for the "GOLD" product, sure we've had about a billion suggestions of when that could be but I generally take those sorts of stab-in-the-dark-with-a-usb-stick guesses with a pinch of arsenic, and the day I genuinely believe that a piece of software is released on the day people said it would be is the day I stick my underwear on my head and call myself Loony McSpackypants. The reason I brought up Ubisoft is because they're a prime example of a company who has years of release experience and still manage to cock it up EVERY SINGLE TIME. So I heartily encourage you to take your 100 back and give it a try, I'll even be your first prepurchaser and throw rocks at your window till you release your product and if your preparing yourself to write a scathing reply illustrating how useless that approach would be on my part then congratulations because you've finally understood my point.

Well stop replying then
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Offline LeeReynolds

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Re: Dates
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2008, 07:23:53 PM »
I agree that looking at the pre-purchase as an investment is a wise perspective. Already Planetside has developed an amazing product, and look forward to seeing the final version. I have every intention of purchasing a copy myself as soon as possible ($200 might be small compared to other similar products, but it's a lot for me... I only have $55 saved up so far... need a few more Rentacoder jobs under my belt). I can think of few examples of great software that wasn't pushed back significantly from its original release date. If dates were promised to purchasers of the pre-purchase, and those dates haven't been kept, then refunds should be given if requested (As they have been from what I understand. As in the case of Harvey Birdman). However, if I understand correctly, the money given for the pre-purchase is being used as capital for Planetside, and, I would assume, going mostly toward development of TG2 and the sustenance of the developers. Therefore, it seems that it would only be decent of those who have invested in the future product to sit patiently and wait for their investment to pay off. If folks are agitated by the release date delays because they were depending on a final release for a current project that needs Terragen 2 in its final state, then my only advice is to make sure to account for such delays in your projects in the future. The technology preview seems to do a lot in its current state anyway, so use that. I have some experience as a programmer, and know that large projects often have many unforeseeable bugs that do take much time to resolve, and release dates should be fluid and tentative. Tweaking and perfecting does always take the most time. Its like if washing a car takes 15 minutes, detailing it to perfection could take an hour or more. The most obvious difference could come from the wash, but if you really care about the car (or Terragen 2 in this case) you'll understand the time it takes. This is not to say that Planetside needs to take their time too much... I'm getting really eager to see the final version come out myself...

On another subject, despite my hatred for people who play "Hall Monitor" in forums, I feel I must comment on the disrespectful and outright rude behavior some have shown on these threads. From what I have seen of the Terragen community it is typically supportive, friendly, and helpful. However many posts i have seen on this topic have been atrocious. "Manners" are not something that I hold in high value, but there are arenas where certain attitudes and language are simply inappropriate. Don't make these forums a bad thing by being an ass and filling them with childish trash. All this bickering won't get anyone anywhere. Calico has made his point, now its time for him to shut up. I really appreciate that Planetside hasn't been very controlling of their forum, but it may be time for them to step in and stop this.</ranting>

P.S. Planetside should also be decent and update the website: "...final release of Terragen 2, scheduled for completion in 2007..." at http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tg2/prepurchase_tg2.shtml. Also, I don't believe that anyone at Planetside was lying about dates. I'm hoping that any previously set dates are honest estimates. Any future dates should be clearly labelled and accepted as such.

Offline neuspadrin

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Re: Dates
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2008, 07:36:50 PM »
Its like if washing a car takes 15 minutes, detailing it to perfection could take an hour or more. The most obvious difference could come from the wash, but if you really care about the car (or Terragen 2 in this case) you'll understand the time it takes. This is not to say that Planetside needs to take their time too much... I'm getting really eager to see the final version come out myself...

that has to be one of the best analogies ive seen for "the first 90% of a program is the easiest and fastest to do".  which is very true.  it takes a lot of extra care to get the little things perfect.

Offline rcallicotte

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Re: Dates
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2008, 07:51:27 PM »
Well, okay, this will be my final reply.

I see three types of people here, with varying shades.  But, clearly, there are:

1.  Some who wish TG2 was finished and don't care if it takes forever - their level of confidence doesn't depend on what Planetside actually does to complete it.  These people will keep on praising Planetside and believing iteratively without real evidence that they have reason to trust Planetside to finish this.
2.  Some who would like TG2 to be a completed product - these have been experienced in life and understand it isn't what a person says as much as what they do.  This group is being patient and waiting, but still expressing a valid disappointment from time to time.
3.  A very few have been utterly pissed, emotional because they've spent money for something that has been extremely delayed.  Perhaps their value of money has to do with what little they have or how hard they have worked for it.

I hope to be in the second group and believe, for the most part I am.  No one has consistently stood up as many times as I have saying something about the need to just let Planetside work and how we shouldn't bother them with silly requests.  I've waited patiently and supportingly.  As for my level of trust, it's not blind faith and so I go on what I see. 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 08:05:44 PM by calico »
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