Cut out the discussion of warez and pirated software, models, etc. here!

[neuspadrin]

One idea I would like to see is if that people who make models could please start leaving a .txt or a .pdf with their model (and preferably like if you have awesometree.tgo, make it awesometree.txt or .pdf), and inside just some instructions on how to leave credit (like a preferred name or a list of 2 names depending on what forum your on, etc)

i already do this..........................

I know lightning, another reason why I love your models .

Anyways, yes in place of 3ds Max I have used blender when messing around and I couldn't find another demo to play with.  Actually the most time I've really gotten to spend with 3ds Max is when I was at my high school and they had one computer lab I had a class in had it installed on those computers.  I wasn't in the class that was using 3ds Max, but I still played with it as I finished all my work for that class way ahead of time (AutoCAD).  I've really only gotten copies of photoshop and dreamweaver to play with until I was in college and could afford and actually qualify for the educational versions.. And actually thinking back I got my copys from my dad's friend's business that had an old copy that they no longer used (it was like photoshop 7.0 and dreamweaver... 8? or before that... I forget).  Without the knowledge of playing in both of those I would've never gotten my job that helped me finally pay for my own copy (that I'm very happy to finally have).  I also just convinced my boss for my summer job to finally upgrade from GoLive to Dreamweaver, so he just bought 3 licenses of Dreamweaver CS3 thanks to me. 

I'm not saying pirating software is a great idea, but it seems like educational reasons should be handled differently by many companies.  I'd even be happy if they would just offer their older versions for free (or at least to educational purposes).  They arn't likely to make much profit off those versions anymore, but if they offered them free to students, those students are very likely to grow up and then purchase copies or work for companies that do purchase copies of the latest and greatest, which in turn helps out them.  Also it'd be nice if the price on some educational copies would drop, then I know I'd be much more likely to buy more of them even just to try out.  As some educational copies still are out of the price range of college students without some parental help... and when they do help me with that they often go "happy birthday" or "merry christmas", as it comes out of that. 

As far as our handling of the piracy problem, we feel that providing a truly free, not time-limited, not watermarked version is a great way to give those people who would otherwise pirate the program a chance to find out about how it works in the long-term. I think demos, being the standard approach, are fine, but it is reasonably legitimate that for complicated programs it can take longer than a short demo period to see how well it works for you. There is also the value of supporting those who are growing into serious artists and who can't yet afford expensive software. If we work to establish a good relationship with up-and-coming artists by helping them with free software (for example), I think it builds loyalty and inclines them to purchase our product if and when they become able and start to succeed with their work.

That is exactly why I love Terragen so much.  You guys have a great community and you offer your software free.  I like how its not a timed trial.  Timed trials are great... but not if you only get like every other weekend free time to actually play with it and learn some.  Cause then after just messing with it a few hours total you no longer have a trial.  With Terragens policy it allowed me to love the software and learn how it worked, and then also by being affordable I upgraded so I could make myself some nice backgrounds and have more objects to place.

[gregsandor]

A great free modeling and animation program is anim8or, at www.anim8or.com.

[nikita]

First off, a bit meta discussion:
You can't compare software theft to stealing a car. If you steal a car, someone loses his car. If you steal a program, the software company doesn't make losses.

Using cracked software just isn't right. In the past years, there have been efforts to make software design an easy engineering process. It didn't work. Programming is still non-trivial, hard work that should be paid. And being unable to afford something doesn't give you the right to steal it.
The high prices issue seems to be in a deadlock. There prices are high to compensate for piracy - there's piracy because of high prices. In my opinion the companies have to make the first move here. The lower the price, the more potential customers. The price*#buyers curve probably has an optimum and I doubt it's at $600.

A different solution is using free programs.. there are a lot of them out there.

[Cyber-Angel]

First off, a bit meta discussion:
You can't compare software theft to stealing a car. If you steal a car, someone loses his car. If you steal a program, the software company doesn't make losses.

Using cracked software just isn't right. In the past years, there have been efforts to make software design an easy engineering process. It didn't work. Programming is still non-trivial, hard work that should be paid. And being unable to afford something doesn't give you the right to steal it.
The high prices issue seems to be in a deadlock. There prices are high to compensate for piracy - there's piracy because of high prices. In my opinion the companies have to make the first move here. The lower the price, the more potential customers. The price*#buyers curve probably has an optimum and I doubt it's at $600.

A different solution is using free programs.. there are a lot of them out there.

While I agree that software vendors should keep their prices as low as possible they have to consider how they are going to re-cope the cost of development of the software; there is also the fact that a publicly owned company (That is one traded on the Stock Exchange) has obligations to be seen making a return to its share holders and so they have their price points adjusted accordingly.

Software is sold in units that is 1 physical software package = 1 unit, therefore software pricey equates to for every 1 illegal software package used = 1 genuine unit not sold and since all software units (excluding open source) have a monetary value in real terms there is a lose to the vendor.

The net affect of software piracy is that in order to recover the lost revenue form each unit not sold is for software vendors to increase the price of the software and thus software piracy increases as a result. With pricing, you should be looking to strike a balance between what your customers are willing to pay and what the demands of a competitive market place say it should be in order for any given vendor to compete with any other, however this balance is seldom if ever achieved due to outside factors such as currency values, the strength or weakness of a given economy and the like; any company weather in the software industry or any other cannot be seen to be either artificially keeping their prices low or be seen to be undercutting, both are illegal in most civilized counties and are likely to result in Anti-Trust and/ or Anti-Cartel investigations.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel                             

[Njen]

Another way to get CS2 is to purchase Photoshop 6 (legitimately) and then get the upgrade version to CS2 or CS3 (legitimately) on eBay. 

Or you could get GIMP - completely free. Version 2.4 is out, and it's awesome, much better than previous versions as the UI has been redesigned.

www.gimp.org

[JimB]

First off, a bit meta discussion:
You can't compare software theft to stealing a car. If you steal a car, someone loses his car. If you steal a program, the software company doesn't make losses.

I absolutely can compare. You seem to be thinking only of the end user and not considering the big bit before that; Either, the hacker is raiding the car factory and making off with 20% of the cars there, one of which the end user then gets. That's still a 20% loss to the software company on the product. Alternatively (and probably a better analogy), the hacker stole the blueprints, some materials, some robots and assembly line, and is running a factory making the cars himself - it's still theft and the software company loses 20%. I include the loss of manufacturing plant because the losses do actually reduce the company's ability to buy such things after losses or reduction in projected growth, plus the pirates economic growth boosts their manufacturing capability. The legitimate car buyer has to find 20% more to buy a car with. I highly doubt that insurance can be claimed, either, so the net effect is up to double. Worse still, the necessary price hike reduces sales, so the net financial effect can be up to triple.

Don't assume the figures given for losses due to piracy aren't adjusted to allow for those end users who wouldn't have bought the software in the first place. The claimants or prosecutors will have needed to prove the net losses, not just figures plucked out of the air. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Piracy can also reduce employment growth at a company hit by piracy. The pirate doesn't need to do any such thing like create employment, nor do they probably contribute taxes to the running of public services, etc. Just because you're perhaps a "geek" "innocently" downloading apps and cool stuff like it's Christmas doesn't mean these issues don't affect you and those around you. No one lives in a bubble, and there's no such thing as a free lunch.

[rcallicotte]

Another thing to realize is that if you create something with pirated software and you're caught without a license, not only can you be prosecuted but you might find no one wants to do business with you again.  Companies can be pretty sensitive about thieves and tend to stick together on issues like this.

[nikita]

The blueprint comparison fits better. I'm not saying there is no loss at all - only that it's different. When you're stealing a car, there is an immediate victim of your crime. When you steal software, there's no immediate victim - the company doesn't even notice and has no losses to book.. you're not even allowed to book a loss. (unless of course, there are special accounting rules for this, I'm not aware of or don't exist in germany)
Piracy does cause damage, but you have to use completely different arguments to prove that. As I said in the rest of my post, I'm not supporting software theft. I just want to raise awareness to problematic arguments.

[dandelO]

I think Planetside have it in the bag. They provide a complete program for users to download for free, however restricted this is a lot better than the 30 day trial that most others offer. I am more than greatful for the oppertunity to be using Terragen 2(and that hasn't even been fully released yet!) for free at the moment. It's a great gateway for users to get into the fray, without the need to steal.
Most of the bigger companies won't even do this, and they're the ones who could afford to. A small team such as PS doesn't have to but they do anyway, bravo!

As has been stated, there are loads of freebies out there though, here's a few:

Google Sketchup has a free version, it's a really good modelling tool for beginners and experienced users, alike. http://sketchup.google.com/download/

The Gimp is a great alternative to Photoshop/paintshop, and also free. http://www.gimp.org/

DAZ Studio is a fully functional 3D app, and will be free for the duration of it's existence, I'd imagine. They also(if you've signed up to the mailing list) send you regular email notifications for special offers and freebies, like models, shaders, scenes etc. Victoria 4 also comes with the newest release of the program. http://www.daz3d.com/

Crazybump is a fantastic texture creator(quite power hungry though). http://www.crazybump.com/beta/download.html

And hundreds of others...

If you are going to use pirated software, on your own head be it! No one needs to know though so, don't go broadcasting the fact, you'll just look like a fool and people will resent that you've stolen what they've had to pay for, users and publishers both. Some things are best kept to yourself for everyone's sake.

[mr-miley]

Cyber-Angel..

"Software is sold in units that is 1 physical software package = 1 unit, therefore software pricey equates to for every 1 illegal software package used = 1 genuine unit not sold and since all software units (excluding open source) have a monetary value in real terms there is a lose to the vendor."

Not necessarily so, you are presuming that if the software wasn't available from pirate sources that the piratee would go out and buy it.

Also the software companies aren't stupid. For every X no. of people who download a dodgy copy of say, Photoshop (though why anyone would want that I'm not quite sure) maybe 1 person will actually go out and buy it, or, when they start employment they will persuade their boss etc to buy a copy etc Without those X no. of downloads, the software company wouldn't have made that sale... = 1 genuine unit not sold.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way condoning piracy, I would be interested though to see figures (yes, I know they don't exist by their very nature) of how many units have been sold off of the back of pirated software that wouldn't have been sold if they weren't downloaded.

Another thing.... if the software companies would stop being sooooo greedy (I'm talking from a UK perspective here) Photoshop from Adobe US $500 US (made up amount) Photoshop from Adobe UK £500.... exchange rate 2$ to the £.... You work out the maths. Again, no excuse for piracy but if you live in the UK, you don't tend to feel very sorry for the US companies who price this way  

Just my 2c worth, playing devils advocate

Miles

[JimB]

Another thing.... if the software companies would stop being sooooo greedy (I'm talking from a UK perspective here) Photoshop from Adobe US $500 US (made up amount) Photoshop from Adobe UK £500.... exchange rate 2$ to the £.... You work out the maths. Again, no excuse for piracy but if you live in the UK, you don't tend to feel very sorry for the US companies who price this way  

There's already been one petition: http://www.gopetition.com/signatures.php?petid=11698
Here's a discussion on the subject: http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2007/03/csthree_is_a_ma.html

More bits and bobs for those who are interested:
http://grafixnews.net/petition-against-adobe-price-hike
http://web.mac.com/libine/Site/ENGLISH.html
http://www.amanwithapencil.com/adobe.html
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2007/04/25/adobe_vs_the_europeans/

Start another petition maybe? I'd sign up.

Some interesting comments from Adobe here: http://www.bugeyed.me.uk/2007/04/adobe-cs3-uk-pricing.html

[Mandrake]

Another thing to realize is that if you create something with pirated software and you're caught without a license, not only can you be prosecuted but you might find no one wants to do business with you again.  Companies can be pretty sensitive about thieves and tend to stick together on issues like this.

Ahhh very good calico, so knowing this and that model makers here hack software. The big question is: Will you still continue to use there models? I don't..

[rcallicotte]

@Mandrake, if I ever do anything to make money, I'll make sure what I'm using is legitimate.  As far as some of the people here talking about this, I'm not sure which ones are making WAREZ available to us.  I don't think anyone who has posted to the File Section is.  If I'm wrong, I would hope Planetside would remove the offending software.

[Mandrake]

@Mandrake, if I ever do anything to make money, I'll make sure what I'm using is legitimate.  As far as some of the people here talking about this, I'm not sure which ones are making WAREZ available to us.  I don't think anyone who has posted to the File Section is.  If I'm wrong, I would hope Planetside would remove the offending software.

I think you missed my point, if you new someone created a model with pirated software, would you use there model?

[rcallicotte]

Nope.

...if you new someone created a model with pirated software, would you use there model?