No Bailing Out the Wealthy

[PG]

Try looking at it slightly more objectively. Big banks and brokers don't lose money, CEO's can always protect their personal equity. I don't know if you know of Bradford & Bingley but they're a UK Buy to Let Mortgage lender who were recently nationalised but the CEO still managed to cash in his bonus before they went bust. Accountability is sent right down the food chain. It's where the division of labour finds fault, in that the workers at the bottom of the pile have to shoulder the costs while the management continue to recieve larger and larger bonuses. I've studied economics along with political philosophy for several years and trust me accountability doesn't exist in those circles.
The taxpayer will have to bear the brunt for the short term but the idea is that when the economy regains strength the treasury will have investment in more ways than it ever has, effectively the private sector is paying tax but through investment rather than the government just taking money.

[rcallicotte]

@PG, regardless of the "way it's supposed to work", it's foolishness. 

Bailing out the wealthy isn't my option.

[PG]

It may not be right but that's not gonna fix the economy. The wealthy create the strength in the economy and that filters down to the rest of society in what's known as Adam Smith's "trickle down effect". If we force the wealthy into relative poverty then it just drags down the rest of society.

[rcallicotte]

@PG - That philosophy is a lame theory that hasn't worked for the United States since it was enforced over and again, starting with Reagan.  The wealthy just keep their money and the rest of us suffer.  That's seen across the world, by the way, with minor exceptions.  Mexico, for example, has wealth.  But, Mexico's wealthy horde it to the demise of their populace.

[PG]

Think about that though. Mexico doesn't have division of labour it just has cheap labour. Since Reagan was president average wages in the US have increased, only going down during economic difficulties. The UK economy is the same, sure the rich get insanely rich and the poor only get a tiny bit richer but it is at least richer. Wages go up but not at inflationary rates, that's why it seems like those in poverty are getting poorer, it's not because the trickle down theory doesn't work, it's because inflation beating wages would cripple the economy.
The trickle down effect doesn't mean a fair ratio of wealth being distributed, it just means that wealth is distributed.

[efflux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqIFoBXGizc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-F89sIDDVI&feature=related

[PG]

Yes and what he doesn't tell you is that banks and investment companies in the UK, China, Germany and Australia hold more of the dodgy debts than the American equivelants do. Indeed, Barclays bank has had to write off nearly £1.5 billion (more than $2.5 billion) of subprime debt in one week that it couldn't get rid of. Also, a direct intervention into only American banks would likely double inflation almost overnight. You can't move that much money around your own market, currency only has value when it's traded and trading money for money only works when it is in different currencies. In the same currency it leads to a depreciation because you're not getting anything new for it.

[efflux]

He's not suggesting a US bailout only (he doesn't want any bailout) but just explaining the nature of it which would be known by everyone if they weren't so busy watching pop idol or whatever brain damaging propaganda they soak up instead of protecting their freedom.

[PG]

Without a bailout the economy is left to rot, markets depend on confidence and with no money left there's no confidence. And someone actually commented on the first video you posted that the bill is unconstitutional. Where in the bill does it say that the government can't buy unstable loans from the private sector. I don't like talking negatively about people but they're total muppets. We do what's necessary to avoid returning to the stone age. After all if the economy collapses you'll have to rely entirely on the state and that's definately against the American values that everyone keeps banging on about.

[rcallicotte]

The reality is that the people who are wealthy (you know, more money than anyone can spend in 10 lifetimes) and involved in making this lie happen are so greedy and so stupid that they'll destroy the economy just to get more money.  They can go to hell.

[PG]

I don't really think anyone's in the state of mind to actually want to destroy the economy for short term gains, after all it's their shrewd manipulation of the markets that allowed them to make so much money so they can't be all that stupid.

[efflux]

But how can there be confidence with corrupt interference.

The survivors of the current catastrophe will also be the share holders and controllers of the Federal Reserve. It's the biggest coup ever pulled. The US is now controlled by a fascist banking regime. Helped along the way by other countries. This is not just the US but a global banking oligarchy with large control in Europe as well.

It's all the same cabal of conspirators every time. It just so happens that the US is centre stage now but people everywhere are being conned.

However, 300 million US citizens with guns is tricky for them. Enter USNORTHCOM troops with orders to control trouble makers and take away your weapons which is illegal under the constitution but what is legal is the right to make armed take over of a corrupt government. Of course according to George Bush the constitution is just a goddam piece of paper. Also enter nut job McCain or Obama but of course these puppets want the bail outs. After all they are going to be employed by the banking oligarchy to enslave the people. McCain aspires to be dictator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA1rF_9p_HM

None of these people are remotely fit to run a country. What they are fit for is a firing squad.

Some might say why dwell on the worst possible outcomes. Well that's simply working out what the lunatic agenda is so something can be done to stop it. The dollar should go down to something nearer it's correct value. There needs to be an inflatory correction not more inflation. That will lead to Weimar Republic Germany scenario but on world scale. The woman in the picture I posted before is burning money because firewood is worth more - the soon to be state of the US dollar with present directions. The problems that created the situation have to be stopped. This is the one thing that does have to be done globally. That is the only way to restore confidence.

[PG]

sigh. I hate conspiracy theories, capitalism is built on a system where the many control the few. Yes it's unfair and yes any bailout will mainly help them but considering the alternative is communism and considering that this way has worked for nearly a century of western government it's not the black hearted class war you seem to think it is. They're protecting their investments, that's the whole point of capitalism, you protect what you invest in to see a return in dividends. It's not a dictatorship, it's the same capitalist system you've been living in for years, considering the fact that Americans are hell bent on avoiding Communism I would've thought they'd be more in favour of this bill. As I've said, if you leave the economy to crumble then all you'll have left is a controlling government, a socialist government, one with no growth in economy which will be a damn sight more dictated than anything you think we have now.

[Inscrutable]

I have to agree wholeheartedly with PG.  The crux is that it's not the perfect solution - it's the BEST solution.  I'm not talking in the short term here either, where yes the taxpayers are the ones who will foot the bill, but rather the longer term where the taxpayers will beneft from a recovered (probably very long term in this instance!) economy.

I also have to say that the concept that there is some overarching conspiracy theory is just ridiculous.  There is no conspiracy because the frameworks in place, and the most basic human nature, wouldn't support it.  The fact is that the situation has arisen because of an absence of coordinated and effective oversite (I'm not advocating a cabalistic organisation, by the way!).

And on the government side, government simply isn't well organised enough to have orchestrated this sort of thin - I work for one and can tell you we'd never be able to pull something ike this off intentionally!!! 

Inscrutable

[efflux]

The Federal Reserve is seeking total power to do whatever it wants for it's masters which are not the people. That seems like a well orchestrated conspiracy otherwise the present situation would never have been reached. The bankers even tried this once before but with more obvious means so the government was alerted.

You can not recover the value from what the tax payer is taking because it will never stop without some major change of direction to sort the problems that caused the present situation. The tax payer will be forced to pump ever increasing amounts of money into the system which will feed back in a loop of constant inflation. The bankers will not be dealing in dollars when this happens. They will not lose. They will simply own everything.

There is a window of opportunity because the US has no real enemies in the world at least not in comparison to previous times. Forget war on terror and all that nonsense. It's fabricated. That window of opportunity will be lost.