To U.S.A. People Who Can Vote

Started by rcallicotte, November 04, 2008, 08:55:41 AM

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Will

Well most of my faith in the system has been restored.
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

otakar

Wow! Popped a bottle last night. The nightmare is almost over, the move back across the pond has been postponed indefinitely. Both speeches were great. You just gotta hope now that the Secret Service and FBI will be on their toes. The crazies will try to get to him and not all will so inept as the ones they caught so far.

Hope restored.

nvseal

If Obama actually gets what he wants. We're screwed.

rcallicotte

@nvseal - If it was only the commercials and television blurbs I was basing my information about the candidates on, I might just generalize and say they all are a bunch of jerks.  But, after watching the debates, I'm not sure how you would think that we haven't already been screwed and that you might see we need what Obama's talking about.  That is, if you aren't one of the few in the U.S. who are so wealthy they don't understand that they're greedy heartless bastards.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

Will

everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I voted for Obama but I have to say if somebody like  Kucinich ever got elected to the presidency we would be screwed. 
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

nvseal

#20
Neither candidate was great. But Mcain was very much the lesser of two evils. I don't follow the reasoning that making over 250,00 dollars makes you a greedy heartless bastard (or is it $200,000, or $140,000, nobody knows anymore). I would very much like to make more than $250,000 dollars someday; heck, I would like to make way more than that. (I'm going to go out on a limb and postulate that if someone came up to any of us offering $200,000 most of us would be greedy and heartless) Does wanting to make that kind of salary make me a greedy heartless bastard, or does that make me a greedy heartless bastard only after I have achieved those goals? Besides, making more than 250,00 dollars doesn't necessarily make someone "wealthy." i.e. depending on expenses, someone making 150,000 may very well have more expendable capital than someone making 250,000 (for example, a small business owner making 250,000 may use his free money to reinvest in his own business, which might even mean employee bonuses). Why is it that an oil company CEO (who actually does something important) making $500,000 – or even 1 million – is a greedy heartless bastard while Oprah Winfrey (who makes about 139 million annually) is just a fantastic person. I honestly don't know any working person who aspires to work at a dead end job without the possibility of promotions and raises. Likewise, I don't see how seeking a job paying 50,000 is less greedy than seeking one with more. Everyone tries to maximize their potential assets. Then we have the notion that the rich and super rich have millions and billions of dollars hidden in jars in the backyard because they don't want other people getting to it. For example, imagine for moment what would happen to Microsoft if Bill Gates tried to liquidate all his substantial assets – hint: bad things. Obama will not help the situation at all. Spreading the wealth doesn't help.  Why would I want to work my butt off if all I have to look forward to is being taxed more the harder I work; and having my hard earned money redistributed by those in the government who think they are better qualified to decide who can use my money than me. The honest truth is that most CEOs and rich people are not little devils; saying they are is just an intellectual copout from real examination of the problem.

Obama's America:
1)   Tax those who make more than a certain arbitrary salary, regardless of someone's actual available capital and how they spend the money. After all the very fact that they have the money they do is evidence that they don't deserve it. Not to mention that 86% of all federal income taxes are paid by the top 25% of income earners. To use Jim Moran's words (Democrat), who wants to live in a country laboring under the "simplistic notion that people with wealth are entitled to keep it." That's what he actually said, he essentially trashed the right own and keep property.

2)   Tax the coal industry because of "carbon emissions" to the point of bankruptcy. Makes sense, after we don't really need that 49% of all of American electrical power anyway.

3)   Nationalize healthcare. Fantastic, then we can have free healthcare! It will suck, and if you need it you won't be able to get to it in time, but at least it will be free. Hmm, you get what you pay for I suppose.

4)   The fairness doctrine. This way, Obama can force radio stations to air shows that cost more than they make (because no one listens to them) – yeah, that's fair. But I suppose we can look at it as another way to get at those greedy radio station owners (never mind the employees who are going to get laid off, after all, they probably wanted to own the station someday).

5)   We can also look forward to judges appointed on the bases of their empathy toward certain social demographics. To translate, the end of the rule of law. Now days, we don't have to prove someone's guilt, we just have to hope the judge has empathy toward our social position rather than our guilt or innocence before the law.

6)   Billions of US tax dollars can be sent to Africa to accomplish nothing.

7)   Billions more can be spent on US public education....to accomplish nothing. This is the great irony of government. In the free market, one generally makes more money the better they are at what they do. In government, how much funding something gets goes up the more it fails.

This is of course only a spattering of the plethora of garbage Obama wants to accomplish; that's Obama's freedom. That's change all right; but I find no hope in it.

Will

The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.

matrix2003

Quote from: Will on November 05, 2008, 06:13:10 AM
Well most of my faith in the system has been restored.

I am at peace.  My family is happy.

Lets turn off the "always be afraid button."

Change is good.  Comments welcomed.
***************************
-MATRIX2003-      ·DHV·  ....·´¯`*
***************************

~FIOS~

Yep each is entitled to his/her own view of things. NV here's the real Obama tax plan copied from his site. If you can stomach reading the truth?

     Barack Obama's tax plan delivers broad-based tax relief to middle class families and cuts taxes for small businesses and companies that create jobs in America, while restoring fairness to our tax code and returning to fiscal responsibility. Coupled with Obama's commitment to invest in key areas like health, clean energy, innovation and education, his tax plan will help restore bottom-up economic growth that helps create good jobs in America and empowers all families achieve the American dream.


Obama's Comprehensive Tax Policy Plan for America will:

    * Cut taxes for 95 percent of workers and their families with a tax cut of $500 for workers or $1,000 for working couples.
    * Provide generous tax cuts for low- and middle-income seniors, homeowners, the uninsured, and families sending a child to college or looking to save and accumulate wealth.
    * Eliminate capital gains taxes for small businesses, cut corporate taxes for firms that invest and create jobs in the United States, and provide tax credits to reduce the cost of healthcare and to reward investments in innovation.
    * Dramatically simplify taxes by consolidating existing tax credits, eliminating the need for millions of senior citizens to file tax forms, and enabling as many as 40 million middle-class Americans to do their own taxes in less than five minutes without an accountant.

Under the Obama Plan:

    * Middle class families will see their taxes cut – and no family making less than $250,000 will see their taxes increase. The typical middle class family will receive well over $1,000 in tax relief under the Obama plan, and will pay tax rates that are 20% lower than they faced under President Reagan. According to the Tax Policy Center, the Obama plan provides three times as much tax relief for middle class families as the McCain plan.
    * Families making more than $250,000 will pay either the same or lower tax rates than they paid in the 1990s. Obama will ask the wealthiest 2% of families to give back a portion of the tax cuts they have received over the past eight years to ensure we are restoring fairness and returning to fiscal responsibility. But no family will pay higher tax rates than they would have paid in the 1990s. In fact, dividend rates would be 39 percent lower than what President Bush proposed in his 2001 tax cut.
    * Obama's plan will cut taxes overall, reducing revenues to below the levels that prevailed under Ronald Reagan (less than 18.2 percent of GDP). The Obama tax plan is a net tax cut – his tax relief for middle class families is larger than the revenue raised by his tax changes for families over $250,000. Coupled with his commitment to cut unnecessary spending, Obama will pay for this tax relief while bringing down the budget deficit.



Mohawk20

NVSeal, for someone who makes such bright art, you have a very grim view of the world...

Quote
Billions of US tax dollars can be sent to Africa to accomplish nothing.
Billions more can be spent on US public education....to accomplish nothing.

I'm not saying you're wrong though... I don't think man can actually 'change the world', or even one country for what it's worth, but I do think it's commendable that people try anyway.

Still, McCain scares me...  ;)
Howgh!

PG

NVSeal, you seem to be making the same mistake you're condemning. That is, lumping everyone of a certain demographic together. Obama isn't planning to raise taxes for those earning more than $250,000 because he doesn't like them. He's doing it to generate more revenue, and a CEO of an oil company does, in no way, fall under the same banner as Oprah Winfrey. The latter makes money from TV appearances, the former makes money from turning over massive profits at the expense of the environment and his workers.
Figured out how to do clicky signatures

nvseal

#26
I don't have grim view of the world, just of what Obama wants to do. We have been spending more and more money on public education to no avail. That's not grim, that's just the way it is. I don't remember the exact number but I think it was 3 billion dollars that Obama wanted to send to Africa. That's US tax payer money he wants to send to other countries. The government is not charity organization.  I think that it would be a lot easier for people to keep their money then give to charity rather than having it forcibly taken. On the one hand we want to send billions of dollars to Africa but then on the other (with the help of the UN) we won't let Africans have things like DTT (much more helpful than nets) and efficient forms of electricity.

@~FIOS~ - First Barack Obama's tax plan is based around class warfare. Second, I'm not just making stuff up. Despite what his campaign website says his own words are "spread the wealth around." His running mate considers patriotism the same as paying more taxes. What happens to his tax plan when he tries to bankrupt the coal industry? When electricity prices sky rocket – which Obama himself said would happen if he gets what he wants – the poor and middle class (and for that matter everyone) is going to be hit hard. Then you consider the workers who are going to be laid off because of the rising electricity prices. Most of those layoffs are going to be the most expendable employees – the lowest income and middles class employees. Then Obama wants to raise corporate taxes. Anyone who knows anything about business knows that there is no such thing as taxing a corporation. It's just a politically convenient roundabout way to tax the people while making them think they avoided taxes. But when you get right down to it, I think it very likely Obama will forget his tax plan soon just like Clinton did. Not to mention, in the end, he'll try to raise taxes to for another reason, be it for his socialized healthcare or another program. Every now and again we get to see a little taste of the real Obama, and it's not the great unifier he portrays himself to be.

@PG: I never said he wants to raise taxes for those earning more than $250,000 because he didn't like them. I was mainly responding to calico. Also, oil company CEOs was an example, there are still a whole lot of people who fit in the $250,000 who aren't oil company CEO's. Every CEO from any Industry (and every employee) makes money when they make profits. Liberals have simply tried to demonize oil. If people will pay more for oil we cannot expect oil companies to lower prices and loose potential profits. Same for any company, it's just that oil has been the focus lately. Moreover, oil companies use those huge profits to pay off their billions of dollars of expenses for equipment, new research, business expansions, job creation, etc. As far as the environment goes I think that will be a hopeless thing to debate beyond that our oil companies are cleaner than ever and even use some of those profits to research cleaner methods.

PG

There's cleaner methods and there's clean methods
Figured out how to do clicky signatures

otakar

#28
nvseal, you sound like a very very bitter person.

Just one quote:
QuoteEvery CEO from any Industry (and every employee) makes money when they make profits.

Yeah, like the financial industry execs, with all their recent profits, eh? Or how about the American car manufacturer execs? Ever looked at a chart comparing executive compensation vs bottom earner salary ratios across different countries? Guess which country sticks out?

And on the tax plan, a progressive tax system is only fair. The more you make the more you should pay as a percentage. This should not be delimited by arbitrary amounts, but that's how government works here, unfortunately. Simplification would also help, get rid of deductions and you seal the loopholes.

And finally, $3 Billion to Africa? Well, $10 Billion a month goes to fund the occupation of Iraq, just for comparison...

Will

My two cents is that nvseal doesn't sound bitter rather he has an opposing view, one that's less optimistic of the future than the rest of us. It isn't a bad view, and one that if you look at our (the US's) track record would seem to be pretty accurate. DO I agree with the points, no I don't but I think they hold same same amount of validity as any of ours. I mean Any one of these things could turn into a disaster despite the original intent, to me its universal healthcare that will be the most likly to get messed up.
The world is round... so you have to use spherical projection.