To U.S.A. People Who Can Vote

Started by rcallicotte, November 04, 2008, 08:55:41 AM

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nvseal

I am not a bitter person; I am just very disappointed about what might be about to happen to this country, and hence, my future.

The current financial problems can be traced back to progressives' intrusion in the economy during the Great Depression.   Liberals are trying as hard as they can to blame the free market for the current financial troubles but we can hardly call the current situation the free market. Here is a good article I would suggest (http://townhall.com/Columnists/WalterEWilliams/2008/11/05/capitalism_and_the_financial_crisis).  I would also recommend Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics and Economic Facts and Fallacies.

Financial Industry = large government regulation and involvement

American Car Industry = large government regulation and involvement

If Obama wants to do something useful maybe he should repeal the CAFE standards. Stocks would soar and it would give the automobile industry a huge booster shot -- without a cent of tax payer money. But of course he won't.

Finally, 3 billion in African AID and 10 billion dollars in military funding aren't comparable. The 3 billion is aid – charity – pure and simple. I don't know about you, but I expect my tax money toward things that actually effect me, cause if not, I'd kinda like to have it back. The 10 billion is a military expenditure which is a national security investment. I'm not even going to get into the war so whether you agree with it or not (I'm assuming not), there it is. A closer comparison would be the social security and Medicare systems which cost more than the war – another failed progressive idea which is giving grief.

And universal healthcare will fail, it ALWAYS has everywhere it has been tried.

Mohawk20

I think the idea behind the 'charity' money for Africa is that it is an investment in the future, and/or damage control.
The people in Africa are dealing with a lot of environmental problems that they had no part in. 'The west' had, America being the biggest part of that...

The investment in the future would be that Africa is the next Asia. A growing economy. And if you help those people as a country, they might help you back when they can. The Chinese economy has bought a few American banks, which has saved a part of the American economy. That would not have been possible if there hadn't been invested in in the past.

That might be the reason your money get's to be given as charity.
Howgh!

JimB

Quote from: nvseal on November 05, 2008, 08:13:34 PM
And universal healthcare will fail, it ALWAYS has everywhere it has been tried.

I suspect that's a myth, or an exaggeration at the very least. It may not be perfect in the UK, but at least even a homeless person can walk into hospital and be treated promptly just like anyone else. Believe it or not, we're actually very proud of that. There are many opinions on the National Health Service, but the reality is that, prior to its foundation here, healthcare was a nightmare for the common person and often unaffordable. Like it or not, the NHS was so popular that the Conservatives promised to keep it before the 1950 general election (they lost anyway), and even though the main objectors were doctors themselves (mainly for money reasons), 95% of the medical profession signed up to it.

It might not be perfect by any means, but at least it's not exclusive.

What I find really funny about the States is they'll bitch about taxes for universal healthcare, etc, but do nothing about the illegal federal income tax which takes away 40% of their income to pay interest on loans from a very few super-rich. Bonkers.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.

matrix2003

Quote from: nvseal on November 05, 2008, 08:13:34 PM
I am not a bitter person; I am just very disappointed about what might be about to happen to this country

You sound very young.  Please take this with you and learn:  getting disappointed about something that MIGHT happen, is a complete waste of time, and you would be better served putting your energy elsewhere.
***************************
-MATRIX2003-      ·DHV·  ....·´¯`*
***************************

PG

#34
Quote from: Will on November 05, 2008, 07:43:26 PM
My two cents is that nvseal doesn't sound bitter rather he has an opposing view, one that's less optimistic of the future than the rest of us. It isn't a bad view, and one that if you look at our (the US's) track record would seem to be pretty accurate. DO I agree with the points, no I don't but I think they hold same same amount of validity as any of ours. I mean Any one of these things could turn into a disaster despite the original intent, to me its universal healthcare that will be the most likly to get messed up.
Indeed, that's the whole point of democracy. And I have to agree with JimB on the healthcare issue. The NHS has only deteriorated since Thatcher turned it into a competitive "business", setting targets for hospitals and its staff. There was something in the news years ago, before New Labour came in, that a hospital in Kent was removing the wheels from trolleys and calling them beds so they could reduce the number of patients who were waiting for a bed, and having a greet nurse to just say hello to people coming into the hospital so that they would be crossed off the waiting list as "seen". In the days before Margaret Thatcher, the NHS was one of the best in the world. If we could only dispel this myth that free market philosophy works in the public sector as James Buchanan thought, and reintroduce Matrons then it would be back on top again.
Figured out how to do clicky signatures

rcallicotte

#35
@nvseal - Many of your facts about Obama have been skewed by propaganda.  I'll only address 3, since I need to go to work.

1.  Healthcare - Obama is pushing toward coverage universally, but it isn't necessarily socialistic (yet) as in Canada or in Great Britain.  As far as the socialistic view of healthcare, it's working well in both the UK and in Canada, despite the lies we're told here in the States.

2.  Taxes - The idea is that the trickle-down theory of the past is BS.  Those who are making more money have obviously had a free-for-all for the last 4 to 8 years working to make sure that people who work for a living can barely afford anything.  If a person makes more money, Capitalism gives them the right to be self-centered and greedy and uncaring.  The problem with that is what we're experiencing right now - a crashed economy.  Marxism spreads the wealth so that one working hard doesn't mean anything like it could be under Capitalism.  So now what?  This is a predicament and Obama is handling it in a way that leaves Capitalism in place and addresses the "haves" who are actually hurting the U.S. economy.

3.  Jobs shipped overseas -  I'm a programmer and have sys-admin experience (20 years total IT).  But, guess what has happened to me and my job options.  A non-citizen from Saudi Arabia took my job, while the same company shipped about 2/3 of the jobs in my department (about 150 positions) to India.  The rest of us had to fend for our own.  They let me go.  I work now for almost half of what I was making before.  This is the result of greedy businessmen who are unpatriotic.  Plain and simple. 

If you plan to make a living in IT in some way, reconsider that there are nations out there with people working for poverty wages so they can have U.S. and U.K. jobs.  This policy is stealing away your and my opportunities to enjoy the Capitalistic society where we live.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

PG

Quote from: calico on November 06, 2008, 07:49:43 AM
2.  Taxes - The idea is that the trickle-down theory of the past is BS.  Those who are making more money have obviously had a free-for-all for the last 4 to 8 years working to make sure that people who work for a living can barely afford anything.  If a person makes more money, Capitalism gives them the right to be self-centered and greedy and uncaring.  The problem with that is what we're experiencing right now - a crashed economy.  Marxism spreads the wealth so that one working hard doesn't mean anything like it could be under Capitalism.  So now what?  This is a predicament and Obama is handling it in a way that leaves Capitalism in place and addresses the "haves" who are actually hurting the U.S. economy

This is where I think Obamas economy plan is weakest. He seems to make the mistake that most politians make, that ideology works or doesn't work all the time. Trickle down theory isn't working now. Because the economy is in such a bad shape CEOs are unwilling to part with their money and so investing in workers is not in their best interests. However, when the economy recovers they will start increasing wages because it will promote a more productive workplace and it'll generate a greater turnover. Obamas plan, I fear, would not take this into account and would continue to put pressure on company bosses who, in a strong economy and left to their own devises, could actually bolster the economy. We saw it when Clinton came to office. The economy was weak, he reversed from the plans he proposed in his campaign and gave the power of the economy to the free market and the economy skyrocketed. That won't work this time, not yet. We need to build the economy, give it a stronger foundation and then let the rockets fire in the free market.
Figured out how to do clicky signatures

JimB

Quote from: PG on November 06, 2008, 09:32:24 AMBecause the economy is in such a bad shape CEOs are unwilling to part with their money and so investing in workers is not in their best interests. However, when the economy recovers they will start increasing wages because it will promote a more productive workplace and it'll generate a greater turnover.

I wish I had more faith in corporate policies, but sadly shareholder profits are the be-all and end-all of any corporate enterprise. It's pretty much law that they come first, and CEO's can disappear as quickly as they appear. Don't confuse a legal entity (a corporation) with a real human entity. If sending the work abroad gives larger profits then there it'll usually go.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.

PG

And don't underestimate the power of bribary. Company officials labour under the misapprehension that we need them more than they need us. If the US government served them with an injunction to cease selling their products in America, which they are able to do, then that company would fall apart and there'd be a hundred more that could take their place.
Figured out how to do clicky signatures

rcallicotte

Another $$ issue - http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/fuel/

This might seem to throw this thread into the sand, but isn't this the reason we're in this shape?  Really?  
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

nvseal

There's just too much to respond to here and I don't have the time do it.
However, I will say that this:

1)    People in the US seem to forget this but if a person needs immediate medical treatment in the US but cannot pay for it a doctor is required by law to help them. Besides, what kind of doctor is going to sit back while a person dies infront of them. There is doctor I know who saved a mans life that could not pay for the procedure. The man wanted to pay though so they worked out payment through the man cutting firewood. Second, the healthcare in the US is already saturated with government money which is already causing our current high prices in health care. When you look at medical expenditures which are not affected by this money (laser eye surgery for instance) the prices have been dropping over time with better methods and more competition.

2)   "Capitalism gives them the right to be self-centered and greedy and uncaring" I'm sorry but this kind of stuff just drives me up the wall. Some of the most self-centered, greedy and uncaring people I have ever seen or heard of have been people making far less than even a hundred thousand dollars. There are so many people that blame greed for our current situation that have absolutely no hard evidence with which to justify their absolute claims. Why doesn't anybody blame the liberal politicians who wanted to artificially hold down prices -- be cause they care so much -- and have screwed over a LOT of people because of it. All these policies do is turn one problem into a bigger problem. Then, when they don't work, everyone screams greed, blames the free market, and put even more government control in place. The great irony on Obama's rebuttal of trickledown economics is that as Obama "punishes" the "haves," there will be some tightening of the belt, both personally and in their businesses. This tightening of the belt will trickle down as I have mentioned earlier. All that said, I also realize this is hopeless argument.

3)   And know we have jobs sent overseas. To keep jobs in America, we need to make an environment in America that is good for business. That is not what Obama wants to do. Instead of address the reasons jobs leave the country he wants "punish" companies that do so. That kind of talk isn't going to help. I mentioned the CAFE standards earlier.  Everyone knows that the US automobiles industry is doing poorly right now, much of the problem being too much government regulation and unions. Why doesn't Obama repeal the CAFE standards and stop hurting US automobile companies? Simple, he is either ignorant or he is not interested in helping US companies. Liberals keep trying to add more and more costly regulations on companies while then calling those companies unpatriotic when outsourcing is cheaper than staying the US. If a company needs to outsource but can't or needs to lay off employees it and can't, that is not healthy for the company. It may be great for the employees; at least until the company loses so much profit that it fails. Businesses exist to do two things, make a profit and expand. You can't regulate and tax a company so much that they can't make a profit and expect the top company officials to make decisions that will hurt the company – after all, it is there job to help the company. Government regulation cannot create an artificially stable economy. Forcing companies to keep jobs that are unprofitable merely treats the symptoms rather than the actual problems.

Like I said earlier, we are hardly a truly capitalistic society anymore. There is too much regulation. So I really wish people would stop blaming capitalism. This country could never have reached its current affluence without capitalism.

rcallicotte

Not if we stop exporting jobs.  And, to this theory that if we stand together as a working force that the powers that be will just hire others, hogwash.  Why do I say this?  Because many experienced people forced out of their jobs to be replaced by inexperienced and desperate people aren't good for a company.  Do you want motivated employees who care about their work and understand it or do you just want warm bodies?  M$ is a perfect example or EA, if we want to get real.


Quote from: PG on November 06, 2008, 09:52:58 AM
...and there'd be a hundred more that could take their place.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

rcallicotte

The reasons job leave the country - GREED.  I have lots of high tech and good experience.  The top of my class.  And I've worked for major cutting edge operations.  But, so have many of my other friends who are more qualified than I am and these people are willing and capable of working for a decent wage.  Why again do we need to let people screw us over?

nvseal, I'm not sure what your future plans are, but if you plan to work in IT and don't have an uncle some place to shoe you in, then you should reconsider your profession.  It's brutal to be in IT right now.  The wealthy companies do not care about you.  Get a grip, if you think they do.



Quote from: nvseal on November 06, 2008, 09:55:42 AM
3)   And know we have jobs sent overseas. To keep jobs in America, we need to make an environment in America that is good for business. That is not what Obama wants to do. Instead of address the reasons jobs leave the country he wants "punish" companies that do so. That kind of talk isn't going to help. I mentioned the CAFE standards earlier.  Everyone knows that the US automobiles industry is doing poorly right now, much of the problem being too much government regulation and unions. Why doesn't Obama repeal the CAFE standards and stop hurting US automobile companies? Simple, he is either ignorant or he is not interested in helping US companies. Liberals keep trying to add more and more costly regulations on companies while then calling those companies unpatriotic when outsourcing is cheaper than staying the US. If a company needs to outsource but can't or needs to lay off employees it and can't, that is not healthy for the company. It may be great for the employees; at least until the company loses so much profit that it fails. Businesses exist to do two things, make a profit and expand. You can't regulate and tax a company so much that they can't make a profit and expect the top company officials to make decisions that will hurt the company – after all, it is there job to help the company. Government regulation cannot create an artificially stable economy. Forcing companies to keep jobs that are unprofitable merely treats the symptoms rather than the actual problems.

Like I said earlier, we are hardly a truly capitalistic society anymore. There is too much regulation. So I really wish people would stop blaming capitalism. This country could never have reached its current affluence without capitalism.
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?

nvseal

Quote from: calico on November 06, 2008, 10:01:38 AM
The reasons job leave the country - GREED.  I have lots of high tech and good experience.  The top of my class.  And I've worked for major cutting edge operations.  But, so have many of my other friends who are more qualified than I am and these people are willing and capable of working for a decent wage.  Why again do we need to let people screw us over?

nvseal, I'm not sure what your future plans are, but if you plan to work in IT and don't have an uncle some place to shoe you in, then you should reconsider your profession.  It's brutal to be in IT right now.  The wealthy companies do not care about you.  Get a grip, if you think they do.

All right then, out of curiosity, how do you want to go about not letting us get screwed over?

rcallicotte

Education - encouraged by lessening the cost of formal education and enhancing the idea of apprenticeships.

Company work programs to make room for U.S. citizens only.

I still like the idea of slapping the overzealous companies, who are more interested in their bottom line than their countrymen, with fines.  And there might be an actual need (if the above ideas are in place) for unionization of IT workers.


Quote from: nvseal on November 06, 2008, 10:10:23 AM
All right then, out of curiosity, how do you want to go about not letting us get screwed over?
So this is Disney World.  Can we live here?