Moving clouds ?

Started by nixx, January 23, 2007, 07:36:50 AM

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nixx

All this information from the pros and the otherwise knowledgeable is really very interesting. There's some great info in there, and it's always good to have even a rough idea of the basis of an effect you 're trying to recreate. But, aren't we starting to drift from the main issue here ? We 're talking about 3D animation, digital imaging, visual effects. And in these areas, in my opinion, it's not about what is real, it's about what looks real. And that's what we should be trying to achieve.

I think the previously mentioned techniques (translating the fractal pattern in X/Z for motion, and in Y for variance), and even Steve's suggestion of splitting the approach into 3 parts, should work perfectly for that.

nick
I 'm child, and man, then child again; the boy never gets older

Cyber-Angel

It wouldn't just be chaos theory, you would also need Complexity Theory and also the Heisenberg uncertainty principle as well if you where going to do things properly, then again its purely academic.  ;D

I am yet to see any cloud system in computer graphics even in the literature on cloud rendering that utilises all of the parameters in my last post for example most of the papers I've seen either use single light scattering or if the do use multiple scattering in their schemes  then its in the forward direction only nothing I've every read has had multiple nonuniform light scattering in the forward and backwards direction. Also these schemes seem to be only based on BRDF (Bidirectional Reflectance Distribution Function) and not on the more accurate and realistic BSSRDF (Bidirectional Surface Scattering Reflectance Distribution Function) of which  BRDF is an approximation and appears more in the literature than BSSRDF.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel


JimB

An animated entity in a CG scene doesn't particularly need to be a simulation, where emulation, trickery, and "animation" will suffice. Don't give up just because the clouds in TG2 aren't true simulations of the real thing, as many animation and VFX are simply workarounds and cheats anyway, and the result of some Eureka moments and very hard work by gifted animators.

In my other passion of ancient history there is a phrase we use a lot; "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." For animation and VFX I would equate that to; "Absence of a setting just means the trick hasn't been found yet."  ;)

It's early days yet.
Some bits and bobs
The Galileo Fallacy, 'Argumentum ad Galileus':
"They laughed at Galileo. They're laughing at me. Therefore I am the next Galileo."

Nope. Galileo was right for the simpler reason that he was right.

stevehmeyer

Cyber-Angel presented a fairly comprehensive list of what is required to simulate cloud development. At this point however in the CG world, computational fluid dynamics (CFD) and animation have not yet been married. Cyber-Angel is correct but I agree with old-blaggard there is a difference between a simulation and an aesthetically convincing animation of cloud movement over a period of time. As a meteorologist I long for that union, but accept the fact that, within limits, we can do a fine job with the tools at
hand.


The simulation remains for now in the realm of the super computer and much work in the U.S. (I am not familiar with the same work being done in other countries) is being done at the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana.

Try these links:

http://www.evl.uic.edu/EVL/SHOWCASE/wojt/storm.html

http://redrock.ncsa.uiuc.edu/hvr.html

http://access.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Stories/supertwister/

http://redrock.ncsa.uiuc.edu/image_opal.html

http://redrock.ncsa.uiuc.edu/CMG/People/jewett/Apr19/animation/r405a.1km.mov

http://dart.ncsa.uiuc.edu/virdir/raw-material/envhydrology/atmos/vatmos.htm

In addition NextLimit  http://www.nextlimit.com/ in Madrid has taken a big step towards that marriage but even they have Realflow4, CFD aimed at the animation market and XFlow for the scientific market. I have been toying the Reaflow 4 to simulate a thunderstorm, but the computational overhead is immense.

You will notice the lack of visual realism in the simulations at the links above because at this time the scientist is interested in the process not the aesthetics. Right now I am trying my best to improve my skills at animating realistic clouds for instructional and television projects.

Here are two examples of what I am trying to do:

http://www.shorstmeyer.com/movies/web_cloud1.mov   4.7mb

This is an example of scattered cumulus evolving into a stratocumulus overcast. Original size was 720 x 480 and had a city skyline overlay for a TV weather program.

http://www.shorstmeyer.com/movies/web_cloud2.mov 1.7 mb

This is an example of multiple cloud decks, each moving in different directions because of directional wind change as elevation increases (the meteorologist call this directional wind shear). This too had a city skyline overlay.

Both are aesthetically accurate but ignore CFD and therefore the cloud physics at varying scales.

Both animations were done in Lightwave with the plugin Ogo-Taiki using a variety of 3D procedural textures. The learning curve is quite steep for Ogo-Taiki. The plugin also realistically simulates atmospheric optics and can do clouds from above.

I am pleased with the cloud engine in TG2 and have found it easy to manipulate, so far I like the results and have just purchased the pre-release animation version.

-Steve Horstmeyer








Cyber-Angel

I am a firm believer that art and science can happily coexist within the same nomenclature, that is to say that the physical accuracy of simulation can coexist with the aesthetic needs of the artist. Thus in an ideal world Terragen would be both aesthetically pleasing and physically accurate.

What I am getting at is that today's home computers have the computing power if not more so than the Mainframes of Twenty years ago, and when Hafnium based CPU's are available More's Law and the Law of Averages says that computers twenty years form now will be at least as powerful as a Cray X3.

What I advocate is a little out of the box type thinking I am not necessarily looking at the way things are I am looking at the way things may be when I look into a subject I look out side the area that I am looking at (Such as Physically based cloud rendering) and look into areas that relate to it, meterology etc, in other words cross discipline reading.

What bothers me is that its all well and good having pure research but its no good to people stuck in a lab if its not in software that people can get, there's nothing wrong with research which is how progress is made other wise you get stagnation.

Look the topic of this thread is moving clouds and I have in my way tried to raise things that maybe over looked and would be remiss to do so other wise. Sooner or later simulation and art will come together it will come out of the lab and into people homes, there is an opportunity to do this and it would be best that Terragen lead the way in this field.

If the issues that surround this topic are hardware related then is it so hard to work with the hardware manufacturers to resolve these issues and thus progress the industry forward?

Comfort zones are all well and good but sooner or latter you have to leave them behind and move on, this is life and another fact of life and that is "Do it first before the competition dose".

For the record I have been using terrain software since Vista (Now Vista Pro) since its Commodore Amiga days.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel   

stevehmeyer

Cyber-Angel:

I too am a vista-pro veteran, it was my first terrain software and I still have a copy of version 4 that I occasionally use for nostalgia. I have been using it since the first PC version ( I do not remember the year, maybe 1990, but that's after you began).  I used it with the Mars DEMs for a show I wrote and produced called "Space: Our Journey Begins" and did a near surface fly over of the planet, including up and over Olympus Mons and into and through Valles Marineris.

I had to bring my home PC (486 processor) into the TV station and connect it to the RAID array and for a 20 second animation at 640 x 480 it ran from Friday at 7PM until Monday at 7AM and had just finished when I arrived.

Those were the days.

However, I agree whole heartedly with you, memories are great but the only way to look is forward. Not just in a straight line, but stray from the path many fascinating encounters wre there to be found.

I too think that the gulf between science and art is artificial and the two are converging at an accelerating rate. To me the more they converge the more I like it.

-Steve Horstmeyer

Cyber-Angel

#21
Steve you mentioned (CFD),

Would a CFD model be technically correct as clouds form  the coagulation of water vapor (Some times Ice) around Cloud Condensation Nuclei, I would have throat that since water vapor is water in its gaseous state that a model based on Computational Gas Dynamics following Raoult's Law for vapor pressure would be more applicable, given your experience with physical observation and meteorological data would a CGD model hold true, if not could you explain why as it would help me learn a great deal?

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel

JDex

#22
Wow... my weatherman from my hometown posted.  Very cool! :)  Err... erm, Meteorologist that is.

stevehmeyer

Cyber-Angel:

I had to think for a while to write a concise and accurate answer, so sorry for the delay in responding.  The atmosphere is a fluid, a compressible one and unless terminology varies CFD in my experience refers to the flow of both compressible and incompressible fluids. In the atmosphere there is no need consider "hypervelocity" and the complications that introduces.

For atmospheric models the atmosphere can be considered incompressible for horizontal flow. We know the atmosphere is not incompressible and motion is rarely only horizontal, but considering the scale of forces and the magnitude of the velocity - the atmosphere behaves as  if it is incompressible.

In the atmosphere it is vertical displacement what ever the cause, that makes weather. Even at its most vigorous vertical motion is much slower than the time it takes for the pressure of a rising or sinking parcel to adjust to the changing ambient pressure, so a parcel rising, for example in a thunderstorm updraft, is at the same pressure as the environment at the same altitude.

In general because of the number of computations involved, condensation is assumed to take place if there is sufficient moisture. The measure of that is relative humidity which indicates if the water vapor pressure is near the equilibrium value. (When the RH is 100% meteorologists often use the poorly chosen term saturation).

The composition of the particular cloud condensation nucleus of course will determine the degree vapor condenses in cloud models, but because a great deal of evidence is lacking about the mix of compositions of a population of cloud condensation nuclei, models assume that if sufficient moisture is available condensation will take place. "Sufficient" of course is a function of temperature.

The Bergeron-Findeisen process describes the water vapor environment in many clouds.  In a mixed-phase cloud both  water drops and ice crystals coexist. Because the equilibrium vapor pressure in the microscopic water environment is greater than the equilibrium vapor pressure in the ice environment, the random molecular motion of water vapor molecules dictate that the ice crystal will grow efficiently and the water drop evaporate. Eventually ice crystals "clump" and exceed the mass the cloud updraft can keep aloft.  If clumps survive long enough and fall below the freezing level, they melt and the many resulting drops then go through the collision- coalescence process   resulting in raindrops. This is not the only  possibility because precipitation does fall from clouds composed completely of water and entirely of ice and as we know snow and rain are not the only two possibilities.

In atmospheric models phase change is considered in bulk, that is individual cloud condensation nuclei are not considered.  If the cloud environment is below an assumed temperature the phase change is assumed to be vapor >> ice and the latent head of the phase transition is calculated. If the temperature is above an assumed value then the phase change is assumed to be vapor >> liquid
and the latent heat is calculated for that particular transition. It is much more complicated than this brief explanation.

There are many good references for cloud microphysics which treat the formation of precipitation and the Bergeron-Findeisen process. It is named for the Swedish meteorologist Tor Bergeron who proposed it and German meteorologist Walter Findeisen who helped refine the theory. Interestingly a very basic form of the theory was proposed in 1911 by German meteorologist Alfred Wegener who is now remembered for continental drift.

Here are a couple links for more information:

On Tor Bergeron

http://www.cimms.ou.edu/~schultz/papers/TorBergeron.pdf

and this one is a great summary of cloud microphysics:

http://www.met.utah.edu/class/jimsteen/ATM619/lectures/cloud_microphysics.pdf

***JDex, where in Cincinnati are you?***

-Steve Horstmeyer




BPauba

stevehmeyer if you were my my weatherman I would watch the news all the time. This is a great thread. I hope to see some of these animations from you :D. It will be cool.

I love the idea of a simulation like atmosphere/cloud node, but we also have to remember that Terragen is an artistic tool. CGI is not reality, and in most cases the artists do strive to create realistic scenes, but in a sense they are not realistic at all. If any sort of simulation was implemented into Terragen2 I hope overrides are introduced to the simulation as well. I do not want to be tethered by physics when I am creating an artpiece. How annoying would it be to get a popup window stating "YOU CANNOT MOVE THE SUN, YOUR SELECTED POSITION WILL RESULT IN TIDAL WAVES AND MASS POLAR MELTING, PLEASE RECONSIDER"(edlo, 2007).

I believe the creators intended Terragen2 as a tool for CGI artists, and that has to be remembered when dealing with additions such as simulations, because an iron fist simulation will quickly take away from the fundamental uses of Terragen.

stevehmeyer

Nicely put BPauba.

I do not think there is a big chance in the near future of Terragen2 becoming a "simulation" tool and for me that is a good thing.

As one who comes from the science side of the science vs art issue here (the vs. not in any way denoting conflict but just recognizing different approaches) I would find entering a few numbers representing real-world conditions then waiting while TG2 cranked out the details, much less satisfying than exploring what the capabilities of TG2 are, and seeing where inner creativity takes me.

I find the physics of clouds and atmospheres incredibly fascinating. Reality though should never be seen as a limit but as a starting point. Just think if Gene Roddenberry was tethered to the known and proven we may have never heard "Beam me up, Scotty".

According to the great biologist/scientist/thinker J.B. S. Haldane the Universe is not only weirder than we suppose, but weirder than we CAN suppose.

Nice moody render, keep it up.

-Steve Horstmeyer


BPauba

stevehmeyer Good stuff. I have never heard that quote ("the Universe is not only weirder than we suppose, but weirder than we CAN suppose. "), tis a great one. I hope I did not give off the impression that I am against any sort of developement of these simulator nodes, I would love to see that! I think my thoughts on the matter were a bit extreme, because as more variables are added more possibilties arise.I am betting that a simulator approach would greatly increase the amount of variables in the nodes. I am hoping these variables you talk of come to life in future versions of Terragen. Your links have gotten me to read more about the physics of clouds! Thanks man.

Cyber-Angel

Having looked into this a little further now I have discovered the words "It is assumed that" in what I have read thus far and to me those words do not belong in science. To me it is clear that there are areas in the literature that remain unclear and until such times as new instrumentation is available for direct long term measurement of these knowledge grey areas then no model can ever be exact.

If Terragen where to have an accurate simulation model then it could be a benefit to the scientific community as you could test what is known about clouds today and see weather the current models of cloud behavior hold true to what is seen by direct observation.

This how ever would require a more detailed atmosphere model then Terragen has today for example Terragen has no air circulation model and its mountain ranges do not force air upwards which as you know results in cooling of that air.

I was thinking about clouds the other evening while watching the sun go down and thinking about using small, robotic airships that could spend weeks gathering direct data from inside clouds which could release small, biodegradable instruments to gather data, these instruments would be similar to those been developed to look at the structure of tornadoes.

I am not sure how long a literature review would take but I have come to conclusion that one is required this review would show up errors, omissions, areas of agreement and disagreement and gaps / grey areas in the current knowledge on clouds the findings should then be published and a summit held to discuss the findings, conversely this would enhance and progress the area forward into areas of investigation and develop new instrumentation to answer the remaining questions.

To me a lack of knowledge is simply not knowing what questions to ask for all knowledge begins as a question and the answer is often not what you expect.

What I do know about clouds is that we can expect to learn more about them as time goes on, it is my hope that Terragen can be used both forth art and science; overturning long held assumptions and being a lot of fun along the way.

Regards to you.

Cyber-Angel 

Lucio

Very interesting topic, many thanks to you all

urban_rebellion

Just a thought here since i dont have the animation version of tg2...but would it be possible to get that "variance" that others on this thread have mentioned by animating the "seed" of the cloud density shader from say frame 1 to frame 50. so over those fifty frames the cloud density morphs and we get variance. Just an idea anyway  ;D