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General => Open Discussion => Topic started by: Walli on December 22, 2011, 04:26:58 AM

Title: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on December 22, 2011, 04:26:58 AM
shack in sweden

http://www.wallis-eck.de/bigger3/shack/lv28_3000.jpg
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: dandelO on December 22, 2011, 05:40:33 AM
Very nice, JW! I was struggling to see the character on the pier in the small version you posted on FB a few days ago and I couldn't make out what it was. I can see him very well now. I like the way the boards don't meet on the shack, makes it much more realistic, and I spotted the guy at the window to here! Nice job! :)
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: j meyer on December 22, 2011, 11:32:03 AM
Nice models,well executed.Even a rope! Saw it bigger elsewhere.
Also the carving(?) boy is pretty convincing.
Keep it up,J.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on December 23, 2011, 01:42:20 PM
different pov and light

(http://www.wallis-eck.de/bigger3/shack/view2_night1.jpg)
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Oshyan on December 23, 2011, 03:36:51 PM
Love the night time shot! Very realistic. Good stuff.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on December 23, 2011, 06:52:32 PM
thanks!

the boy is just a billboard by the way, as he is just a add on I don´t spend the time modeling him. Well, actually I have spend a lot of time modeling him, but now its easier just to take photos ;-)

(http://www.wallis-eck.de/bigger3/shack/lv28_31.jpg)
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on December 30, 2011, 05:39:49 AM
some work on the foreground

(http://www.wallis-eck.de/bigger3/shack/dirt2.jpg)
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Tangled-Universe on December 30, 2011, 05:47:33 AM
Interesting! Very curious to see where this is going :)
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on January 07, 2012, 05:21:03 PM
(http://www.wallis-eck.de/bigger3/shack/View1_12b_1600.jpg)

but like my other landscape renderings, this is one of the rejected ones on cgtalk.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: TheBadger on January 08, 2012, 04:43:52 AM
I have been following these posts. I must have missed where anyone said how these are being made/rendered. Is it TG2? They are great whatever the story
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: FrankB on January 08, 2012, 03:50:20 PM
Quote from: Walli on January 07, 2012, 05:21:03 PM
...but like my other landscape renderings, this is one of the rejected ones on cgtalk.

by this infamous female moderator person again? Never mind Walli, this is a great render! The bit#* has no taste.

Cheers,
Frank
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Tangled-Universe on January 08, 2012, 03:57:16 PM
Since the last rumours/riots on their forums about the way things go with the submissions they have expanded the group of moderators who judge the submissions.
I think the general consensus there is not in favor of landscape images. Immature.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Matt on January 08, 2012, 05:10:11 PM
Walli, Frank, T-U, I love some of the work that you do, but I think every time one of you has mentioned being rejected by cgsociety the image in question didn't really have that 'je ne sais quoi' that I would look for in the cgsociety gallery. If this were a photograph, would it be an exceptional photo? I don't think so. Why should it be accepted just because it's CG?

I really like the shack in the twilight.

Matt
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: FrankB on January 08, 2012, 05:25:12 PM
Quote from: Matt on January 08, 2012, 05:10:11 PM
...Why should it be accepted just because it's CG?

Why is the 513th Audi TT render accepted? Just because it's a car modelled in max?

I think Walli's image has something that resonates with me from an artistic point of view. The serenity, the beauty of the place.... Of course an exploding volcano would probably more intriguing, but seriously, I think there is a certain unfavourable bias at cg talk specifically against landscapes, and especially the ones made with Terragen.
Maybe landscapes are considered boring, I don't know.

Frank
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: freelancah on January 08, 2012, 05:27:49 PM
Add a wizard to the version with the shack in the twilight and im quite sure you'll get your image accepted ;)
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Tangled-Universe on January 08, 2012, 05:33:54 PM
I think you're right Matt. It's also something which was said in that topic on CGS.
That part of the discussion arose since submissions were also accepted purely for technical reasons, as admitted by the moderators involved in the discussion, which in fact is similar to 'because it's CG'. See?
Eventually it evolved into something similar like you just said.

So that also makes me realize that it needs something extra to make it "je ne sais quoi" like.
For that you either need a unique quality and especially a main subject of interest.
TG2 may not be suitable enough to add extra character to the image to gain broader interest.
What I find immature then is that these subjects of interest cannot be something else than a cyborg chick, a shiny car or cave troll.

In the meantime I'm pretty fine with it as it's something I'll never be able to change.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: freelancah on January 08, 2012, 05:37:09 PM
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on January 08, 2012, 05:33:54 PM

What I find immature then is that these subjects of interest cannot be something else than a cyborg chick, a shiny car or cave troll.


Indeed
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on January 09, 2012, 07:26:04 AM
i have no problem with images beeing rejected and I still plant to work on the other pov´s. I also have images there that have been accepted. I know what work has been done for the accepted ones and for the rejected ones. Also I think that some of my accepted pictures are much weaker from a visual side, not only from the workload. The only "problem" I have is to understand what is considered worthy.
Anyways, don´t wanted to start a disucssion about rejection-politics;-)
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: cyphyr on January 09, 2012, 09:34:53 AM
There was an image submitted a year ago or so, it was of a scrub desert scene if I remember correctly. Maybe by Frank or TU or one of our stalwarts :) (sorry I don't remember) It had that "je ne sais quoi" quality, it almost looked like a casual polaroid taken in passing from a car window. It was not a "Great Photo" technically (from that kind of point of view) there was loads "wrong" with it but the artist had achieved a quality to the work that I thought astounding. It would easily have sat beside a pile of holiday snaps and not stood out at all. And that is a great tallent, to be able to blend in perfectly.  The level of subtility needed to achieve this is something that I think is missed by a lot of CG purists (wrong word I'm sure!). Matte painting and set extension (something TG is used for a lot I believe, or certainly could/should be, and I'd like to see some tuts for) for example are often completely missed and indeed should be almost unnoticeable but do deserve recognition.
:)
Richard
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on January 13, 2012, 05:38:16 PM
I am experimenting with night lighting on a different scene. But I want to use the experience for the shack at night version

(http://www.wallis-eck.de/bigger3/cubic/apartment_entrance.jpg)
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Tangled-Universe on January 18, 2012, 12:06:26 PM
Quote from: Matt on January 08, 2012, 05:10:11 PM
Walli, Frank, T-U, I love some of the work that you do, but I think every time one of you has mentioned being rejected by cgsociety the image in question didn't really have that 'je ne sais quoi' that I would look for in the cgsociety gallery. If this were a photograph, would it be an exceptional photo? I don't think so. Why should it be accepted just because it's CG?

I really like the shack in the twilight.

Matt

Here we go again:
http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g85/352985/352985_1326849696_large.jpg (http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g85/352985/352985_1326849696_large.jpg)
A vue render this is.
I know at least half a dozen more examples like these which make it through.

So Matt, how sure are you exactly about how Terragen is looked at at that place?
Also from a sponsor point of view? Since you advertised there and sponsored a contest once.
If I were you I'd seriously question their ways with how they treat 'us' and you/PS as a customer/client/whatever.

I know it is a 'false dilemma' or an 'ad ignorantium' to say that the lack of TG2 work there is proof, but it definitely is a correct observation.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: cyphyr on January 18, 2012, 02:54:42 PM
Sad to say but I agree with you Martin.
Maybe we should submit images as Vue renders .... It would be interesting to see what would happen.
Cheers
Richard
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: freelancah on January 18, 2012, 03:09:44 PM
Wow. When I looked that my first thought was that your link must've been very old work.. apparently it was accepted this month?! seriously? Its not even good imo :O
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Oshyan on January 20, 2012, 06:17:47 PM
Vue has an entire discussion category there, which I think came about from user/member demand and the amount of Vue-related discussion happening "off-topic" in other areas of the site. Like it or not, TG is not often discussed there (though it's always nice to see people mention it in a relevant thread!). Whether it's a "chicken and egg" thing where it's not discussed much because people feel unwelcome there, or people feel unwelcome or that there is no interest *because* there is no discussion, I don't know. I'd like to think that if TG discussion picked up more there, receptivity would increase, and perhaps even a dedicated forum would be justified at some point. The Vue forum doesn't really get that much traffic...

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Tangled-Universe on January 21, 2012, 10:22:06 AM
I'm not sure how that even remotely connects to what I've been saying?

I'm talking about an influential website which is ran by people who obviously are strongly biased to certain tools and types of CG.
Not about Vue having a separate forum.

But, since you mentioned, I clearly remembered the difficulty involved in even getting TG2 listed as an app for creation when you submit your work.
In other words, they denied its existence as long as they could. And they still try to do.

Hence the articles on feature films where Terragen 2 was involved, ever seen that mentioned?
It's either them trying to ignore it or Planetside's PR ;) Pick one ;)
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Oshyan on January 21, 2012, 04:44:33 PM
The reason I brought up the Vue forum is it (theoretically) demonstrates the amount of discussion that happens (or happened) there, which justified its own area for said discussion. I keep an eye on CGTalk as you might imagine and there's very little TG discussion by comparison. As I said it may be a "chicken and egg" thing, but I honestly don't know how to solve the community side of the equation (i.e. why people aren't discussing it) besides just increasing the user base, as we of course always strive to do. Interestingly Photoshop and Corel Painter share a forum over there, two similar but actually fairly different applications from different publishers, and Adobe Photoshop in particular being a major app, you would assume it would have its own forum. Given that precedent, it almost makes more sense to have a "Landscape Renderers" discussion forum than a dedicated Vue one...

Regarding PR, as far as I've seen none of the software publishers really get preferential treatment in the articles, the focus is squarely on the production team and the project details. Software is often mentioned, but generally only in passing. TG has been mentioned in at least 2 articles, one about Parnassus and one about GI Joe. I think it also depends who they end up talking to on the production side. If it's one of the studios using TG, they'll likely mention it, as was the case with those two articles. I think the reality is there are so many studios working on each production and so many aspects to the visual effects in each film, that even an article "About visual effects in Sucker Punch" is unlikely to cover say TG, especially when they're only a few pages long. As far as I've seen Vue is not often mentioned either actually.

Where I do see a difference is in the handling of press releases. We do submit news to CGSociety when appropriate, but actual "articles" like this one (from a press release) about Vue 10 don't happen: http://www.cgsociety.org/index.php/CGSFeatures/CGSFeatureSpecial/vue_10
It may well be that we're just not submitting things to the right place or in the right way, or there may be promotional dollars involved. We'll see what happens with the 2.4 release for TG2...

In any case I'm not saying there's no bias there, but I suspect if there is it's confined to a very few people who happen to have stronger influence over the gallery selection, and I think in general they are not terribly open to tools that are not both "professional" and "popular". I think it would be hard to argue now that TG is not "professional", but how "popular" it is could be debated based on its presence (or lack thereof) on the CGS forums in general discussion. Hopefully as we work to increase TG's visibility and market share that will change organically. I don't see another way to do it, besides efforts from some of the passionate TG users here who do occasionally pipe up over there, which is certainly appreciated. The important thing, I think, is to maintain a positive approach.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Tangled-Universe on January 22, 2012, 05:25:54 AM
Hi Oshyan,

Reading back my latest post it seems I tried to put words in your mouth in my last couple of sentences, apologies for that.

Yes I think you're right the passionate users there should maintain a positive approach.
I plead guilty that I'm not always able to do so, because of aforementioned reasons, but I'll try to do the best I can :)
I'm happy to read though that you recognize the terrible mechanisms there.

I agree there's little you can do about it, but I feel that if you're an advertiser/sponsor of a website you can't ignore being ignored, see what I mean.
An organic change, as you mention, is the most favorable way and I agree with that.
You can't push TG through ones throat, but as I said you neither should be ok with having your product actively being boycotted.
Some careful pro-activity there may be desired at some time.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Matt on January 28, 2012, 09:51:37 PM
Quote from: Oshyan on January 21, 2012, 04:44:33 PM
If it's one of the studios using TG, they'll likely mention it, as was the case with those two articles. I think the reality is there are so many studios working on each production and so many aspects to the visual effects in each film, that even an article "About visual effects in Sucker Punch" is unlikely to cover say TG, especially when they're only a few pages long. As far as I've seen Vue is not often mentioned either actually.

What tends to happen is that an article on a film will be about one VFX vendor at a time, e.g. Pixomondo, rather than every vendor that worked on a film. Terragen wasn't used on Sucker Punch by Pixomondo so of course Terragen won't be mentioned in that article. It was used by Prime Focus. On some films CG society will have a few different articles. Or Tron Legacy, where Terragen wasn't used at Digital Domain so of course it won't be mentioned in the Digital Domain article.

Matt
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Matt on January 28, 2012, 09:57:02 PM
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on January 22, 2012, 05:25:54 AM
but as I said you neither should be ok with having your product actively being boycotted.

I think that's a pretty wild assumption, Martin.

Matt
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Tangled-Universe on January 29, 2012, 05:43:49 AM
Yes sorry, it is :(
It lacks proof, but (in the meantine quite some) first had experience from some people makes it tend to draw that kind of conclusion.
In many cases the truth is somewhere in the middle, which in this case also is not ok.

Slightly different and maybe another topic, depending on how you look at it, TG2 exists for 5.5(!) years now and despite it's improvements and increasing popularity among hobbyists it still has not grown much in popularity in the industry, which is kind of reflected at CGS. I think that's not a wild assumption or weird to say.

Sum the two up = a problem I'd say. However, it seems I'm the only one who's seeing it? I mean to say, am I so completely wrong on this?
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Tangled-Universe on January 29, 2012, 05:47:35 AM
Quote from: Matt on January 28, 2012, 09:51:37 PM
Quote from: Oshyan on January 21, 2012, 04:44:33 PM
If it's one of the studios using TG, they'll likely mention it, as was the case with those two articles. I think the reality is there are so many studios working on each production and so many aspects to the visual effects in each film, that even an article "About visual effects in Sucker Punch" is unlikely to cover say TG, especially when they're only a few pages long. As far as I've seen Vue is not often mentioned either actually.

What tends to happen is that an article on a film will be about one VFX vendor at a time, e.g. Pixomondo, rather than every vendor that worked on a film. Terragen wasn't used on Sucker Punch by Pixomondo so of course Terragen won't be mentioned in that article. It was used by Prime Focus. On some films CG society will have a few different articles. Or Tron Legacy, where Terragen wasn't used at Digital Domain so of course it won't be mentioned in the Digital Domain article.

Matt


Thanks, that's clarifying.

I wonder Matt. When someone hires you, is there no possible option for you to have TG2 exposure in return instead of dollars only?
It may sound like a rude question, but I do not mean so.
As you may have read in my recent post the lack of growth in popularity during TG2's existence is a problem in my opinion and exposure of feature film usage is a powerful mechanism to make the people who matter aware of it.

Despite I'm no CG-industry guy this doesn't sound too stupid I'd guess?
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Oshyan on January 29, 2012, 07:47:04 PM
It's interesting actually, TG2 has had quite a bit of professional level (film and TV VFX industry) use in the past 2-3 years. Less than Vue perhaps, but on some very high profile projects. Where it hasn't gained much visibility is in the middle ground, places like CGTalk that yes, do have pros, but mostly consist of people who want to get into the industry and who naturally grab onto the major industry apps and talk mostly about those (e.g. Maya, 3DS Max, etc.). Vue did manage to get some greater exposure on CGTalk and more acceptance, which is an important accomplishment to learn from, but at the same time look at the Vue forum on CGT, it's not very active either, so it's questionable whether this didn't just result from a lot more marketing dollars, and/or a lucky break with a CGT person who happened to like Vue or something. In any case we certainly do see these issues and work to address them, but there are usually no simple answers (sometimes "more money" is the answer, but that's a "big ask" most of the time, hehe).

As for asking for exposure from a VFX job, the problem is that the copyright is actually owned by the film studio who is contracting with them, so the VFX studio has to ask *their* employers for permission, and even if they are willing to ask, the answer is very often no. We've gone down that road, and we continue to try to get that kind of access and exposure, but it's tough to get past the initial barriers.

All that being said we of course have plans to improve our PR and general exposure of the great opportunities TG2 *has* gotten of late (Paramount anniversary logo, Terra Nova, Sucker Punch, to name a few).

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on March 16, 2012, 06:53:33 PM
back to the non Tg thingy ;-)

after a longer pause I was able to work a bit. Still not finished, but a step closer.

(http://www.wallis-eck.de/bigger3/shack/shackview2_12.jpg)
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: TheBadger on March 16, 2012, 09:44:32 PM
Hi,

I am very curious about the story in your mind for these images. Are you just doing it for the technical challenge (a big endeavor in and of its self). Or do you have a story your working towards telling? Who is the man waiting at the door in image on the last page?
I would love to see a short by you Walli! That would be fun :D
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on March 21, 2012, 05:31:50 AM
a short by Walli, well, I guess that would probably be the shortest short ever ;-)
We will see where I go, but I plan (especially for night version) to "let something happen", so thats not "just" for technical reason or landscape only.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: TheBadger on March 22, 2012, 07:36:01 AM
Here are some free cricket and mosquito sound effects for you, if you or anyone wants them. Can't have a night shot without bugs.


*oops, forgot the link http://www.ilovewavs.com/Effects/Insects/Insects.htm
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on March 23, 2012, 02:13:58 AM
ha, interacitve picture with sound effects ;-)

mosquito sounds all over the place, the usually eat you at this time ;-)
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: rcallicotte on March 23, 2012, 08:12:49 AM
Pretty nice image, Walli.  I almost expect someone to walk out of the cabin for a before bed ponder.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: TheBadger on March 23, 2012, 09:56:58 AM
Quote from: calico on March 23, 2012, 08:12:49 AM
Pretty nice image, Walli.  I almost expect someone to walk out of the cabin for a before bed ponder.

HAHaHAHAHa  :D Now thats taking realism to the next level.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on March 24, 2012, 06:16:52 PM
small update
(http://www.wallis-eck.de/bigger3/shack/shackview2_15.jpg)

now I have to think about and work on the last objects
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on May 11, 2012, 01:54:09 AM
Now some other NON TG renders:
This one I made for Laubwerk (http://www.laubwerk.com/), during testing tools, pipeline and content:
(http://www.wallis-eck.de/2009/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Kanzan_Park_Vollfruehling1800.jpg)

And that one is a testrender of a new lilac I have built for my own shop
(http://www.wallis-eck.de/bigger3/lilac.jpg)

All renders with Vray for Cinema4D.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Seth on May 11, 2012, 03:14:32 AM
Awesome
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: TheBadger on May 11, 2012, 03:27:56 AM
That last one is incredible! Will you please tell me what the size of the file is for that last flower object (.obj?). I would guess that its like 1 GB.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on May 11, 2012, 05:28:18 AM
I will check, but as a zip with those four shrubs in variuos file formats plus textures plus 30 more shrubs only has 1.4gb together, it should be less.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on May 11, 2012, 05:43:58 AM
its 67mb for the lilac shrub.
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: j meyer on May 11, 2012, 09:59:55 AM
Very impressive lilac!
And the Laubwerk stuff looks quite promising.Are all the plants in the image done with
that software?
Could you show a close up of a trunk to branch transition with textures on,please?
Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: Walli on May 11, 2012, 10:36:57 AM
as with most stuff that is in prerelease phase, I can´t give away to much details. Something that Laubwerk is capable of (but I only used to a certain degree in that picture), it does smooth transitions between branches.
Also at least in the first phase, Laubwerk will offer content and I guess expertise. But content means more then just loading an object. For more details you have to ask officials ;-)

Title: Re: Another Non-TG Nature render thingy
Post by: TheBadger on May 12, 2012, 08:10:02 PM
TY