Help...I am a simple math impaired hippy guitarist who has not a clue what all these elegant math terms mean in layman's english. Is there some resource that explains all these terms, yea even shows images of the results that I can access as I am most certainly missing out on a good 75% of this amazing program by not having a clue.
Yeah I know ...get educated but it's a bit hard when there is no tutorial to educate myself with. Sure search the forums is an answer but after following numerous threads in that spirit I find myself knowing even less than I started with out of frusteration at my inability to understand what the heck Scalar means in terms I can comprehend...Wiki was no help as they assume some mathematical understanding at the get go, which I'm sadly, as said, lacking.
I'm thinking that a complete manual dedicated to Functions For Dummies is almost an essential at this point. Sure ,there are those in the community who do in fact understand these terms but they make as little sense to me as if I asked you to grab a G flat diminished 5/flat 9 chord...all alpha-numerics but they're greek to you and poetry to me...please...I want to read and understand the poetry of TG2.. ...
I know where you at with this higher math business, Bobby. And I just ordered WM to boot. That ought to be a trip and a half.
Ya I hear ya on many levels, and yes I have been learning that Geek speak as well, but I also know what a G flat diminished 5/flat 9 chord is so I can do that as well ROTFL /on maybe 12 instruments over all /winks...But ya right these Maths things give me a headache as well rotfl
You guys might want to check the documentation section, which has pretty good documentation of all of the functions.
http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?board=18.0;sort=subject (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?board=18.0;sort=subject)
Yeah they tell you what they do in theory but for those who aren't mathematically literate it's not the most helpful thing, they give no application to projects. I read these a while ago and understood the concepts but couldn't peg how I can use the value of the difference between two colours for....well, anything.
PG's right, it only makes sense, to Nikita's type group and the rest of The Star Bellied Sneetches. If you don't understand every concept, in depth. You don't understand, how to apply anything.
Like PG I as well have read that most impressive list which is chock full of words and concepts I have no inkling about. I'm barely literate as to using boolean functions in my mesh modeling app to cut things apart and that has no math attached. Simply select one as the cuttee and one as the cutter, and click on slice. Now that's a whole lot different than the list of obscure [to me] options available in TG...sigh...I still say it needs a a laymans translation. It's like I know what a house fly is but if you asked me what a Musca domestica [courtesy of Google] was I'd have to google it. Having said that Google is little help with Math functions as they wind up being explained at great length in more words I'd have to look up...tried that and forgot what I had started to try and understand...LOL..Functions For Dummies is really the answer...someone please write it and I promise we'll read it.. ...
Any wonder i stopped using this application. Good concepts for terrains but poor execution of functionality and terminology. :'(
I'll second this too.
I've just used some(rudimentary) functions for the first time in an image that I hope to be done with in the next day or two. Simply using an inverted(although in the function node jargon this turns out to be 'complimented' which just sounds so much more elegant, and right) voronoi function to produce a caustic light mask to use as a luminosity function of another shader.
I found the help required to apply the voronoi function to a scene in the 'Building a terrain from functions' http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=195 tutorial. I really need help understanding most of the others.
'Functions for dummies' would be appreciated greatly.(I also understand the contradiction in that term :D, but a little help with the general application of these functions would be nice).
While this is a shameless plug for my own stuff, I spend a fair bit of time detailing the functions used in my waterfall image: http://www.ashundar.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item427
Also, I do a tutorial on creating a canyon with functions that you can find here: http://www.ashundar.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item212
While they don't deliberately give a general explanations of how functions work, they show how simple function networks can be extremely useful and integrated well into shaders.
OB, did a fine job all right, of explaining functions used in his waterfall project!! To get back to Bobby's request, Maybe we just need a thread here, on, Functions for Dummies. With pointers and feedback on well written tutorials like OB's waterfall.
Hi,
I always suggest that people check out Texturing & Modelling: A Procedural Approach :
http://www.amazon.com/Texturing-Modeling-Procedural-Approach-Kaufmann/dp/1558608486/
It isn't a cheap book, but it's a great way to get a start out with understanding and creating shaders, or in TG2 parlance, working with functions. If you are serious about wanting to learn to use functions, then I recommend it. Not all of the book is useful, but there a few chapters which make up for the less interesting stuff.
There is something you need to understand about using functions - they aren't intended to be used by everyone. They're there for people who already know a bit about making shaders, or people who are prepared to learn using the huge amount of knowledge available in books and on the web etc. They have always been intended for "high end" users. It is basically a graphical way of programming shaders, similar to writing RenderMan shaders but without the typing. If we don't provide some effect, chances are you can create it using functions.
From a personal perspective, I think we do need to have documentation about how you work with functions, how and where to hook them up and all that. We need to explain how our functions work as compared to what other people might be used to, I myself find some of what we're doing counterintuitive. However I don't believe it's our job to actually teach you how to create shaders. It isn't our job to teach you how to combine things to create effects ( although some basic examples to get you started would be good ), because that's a huge topic and there is lots of material out there to do that. The Texturing & Modelling book is a great way to start IMO, it's how I learnt. You can translate what you see into the book into TG2 function networks. The same goes for books about RenderMan shaders, I'd say. There are certain underlying concepts common to creating shaders which are widely applicable, even if the ways of putting them into practice vary. There are resources out there you can use to learn about this stuff.
Someone mentioned they might now know how to find the difference between two colours, but they don't know what to do with it. Using functions is a creative process, we give you the building blocks, you decide what to do with them. While you will find books which give examples of shaders/effects, you won't find books which tell you every way to use every concept. Examples of basic effects often inspire you to do something else, or take the shader in a new direction.
What could you do with the difference between two colours? You could use it to fade out some other colour, or control displacement of something. You could use it for complex control of distributions, based on the colour channels in loaded images. There are lots of things you could do. Each node is a tool which you can use to give the final result.
I wrote the function node documentation, and tried to give the key information you need to make use of the node. I have tried to give examples of how to use some of the nodes, check out the Modulo scalar documentation for example. This is a big, big job though. I essentially wrote the function node documentation when I had some spare time. To write examples of how to use all the nodes, you're essentially talking about writing a small book. I don't know what the plans are for the documentation for the final release, but it is a lot of work. Thing is, the basics of how to use this stuff is covered lots of other places.
Do you need a bit of ability at maths to work with functions? Yes you do. That's unavoidable, computer graphics at its basic level, such as you're getting to when using functions, is all about maths. However, I'm not tremendous at maths by any means, and there is a big difference between coming up with some new noise pattern and using noise patterns and the basic building blocks of the functions to create the effect you want. You don't have to be a mathematical genius to do that, you can do a lot just with basic maths skills like addition and multiplication and understanding a bit about what sort of numbers you get from things like the sin or gain nodes. There are certain things you need to know about working with colours and such. Problem solving skills are also valuable, if everything works right first time you're doing very, very well ;-).
One thing I hope to add to some of the nodes is a graphical example of what they do, for example have the gain node show a gain curve. I'm more of a visual person than a maths person, and I often create shaders by thinking of the shapes ( otherwise known as graphs ) of the functions that the nodes use. Picture a sine wave for example. When I can see a bias curve I can see how I might use values generated from it to achieve something. For example in Sorta Surf from WaterWorks ( my TG v0.9 plugin ) I use a bias function ( like the bias node (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=3175) ) to fade off part of the surf effect, because a certain bias value created a curve which looked like it would give a nice looking fade. To get what I wanted I had to invert the values from the bias function and then multiply the relevant part of the surf effect by that value.
BTW, a scalar is essentially just a single number, like 1 or -2.5. A vector is a group of, in TG2's case, three scalars ( for example, x, y and z coordinates ).
Finally, I think it's fair to say that while using functions really adds to what you can get out of TG2, we're giving people who know how to use them the capability to program their own stuff inside TG2, you don't have to know how to use them to get a lot out of TG2. I think Oshyan is someone who says "I never use functions" and I don't think Luc uses them much either, for example. If you really want to use them though, that's great, but if you haven't done anything like this before there is some learning to be done. There are lots of places to learn it without Planetside teaching you it. I don't say that to blow people off, but using functions/shader writing is a big field and important to the CG industry and there are lots of learning resources. We aren't doing anything especially different with TG2's function nodes, basically we're letting you do stuff graphically with the mouse in the node network that you used to have to know how to program in C to do with TG v0.9. The idea of doing it graphically is not exactly new either. That being said, this is pretty hardcore stuff and if you get good at creating shaders you're definitely in the minority and you shouldn't feel bad if you don't get it.
Regards,
Jo
Very elegant piece of writing Jo, but you do admit it is kind of a closed shop if you don't know any more than say, like moi, grade 10 shop math...LOL. Still it left me feeling a bit discouraged and a lot confused till near the end you say:
"BTW, a scalar is essentially just a single number, like 1 or -2.5. A vector is a group of, in TG2's case, three scalars ( for example, x, y and z coordinates )."
I would call this an excellent entry for a Functions For Dummies book/manual/whatever. I mean most of us really need basic terms explained. I have played with networked shaders[VuePLE has a killer implementation with good graphic feedback] and like them a lot, was pleased they were in TG2TP and deflated when I couldn't get past the math and strange terms. So back to the upside...statements like the Scalar explanation, as dumbed down as you may feel they are, may well be quantum leaps for us confused strugglers. Thanks again for putting such thought into a reply, it is appreciated.. ...
Quote from: jo on July 06, 2008, 10:44:59 PM
Hi,
I always suggest that people check out Texturing & Modelling: A Procedural Approach :
http://www.amazon.com/Texturing-Modeling-Procedural-Approach-Kaufmann/dp/1558608486/
Jeeebus..if I could afford that I could afford TG2, heh heh heh, kin I borrow yours....LOL.. ...
Hi Bobby,
I think I got my copy of Texturing & Modelling for free :-), from Ken Musgrave who is one of the authors. It is an expensive book though, no doubt, it used to more so. It's been a lot of use to me though.
I take your point about the "scalar" thing by the way, and the need to explain it. It's definitely a higher math sort of name for a number, and perhaps not I would have chosen. I should say I think the network view still has a lot of scope for usability improvements. I've tried to add a few bits and pieces but generally I think our nodes are pretty "dumb" compared to some other similar interfaces.
Regards,
Jo
Hi guys,
Wow Jo did a bank up job even if I do not agree with all he said he did say it well. And for the most part I have to agree with many of what he is saying. But one thing I am finding about shaders and like most it gets over my head quickly but I have a programmer to pick his head and it helps. But the old saying a shader is a shader while in it's truest sense it is true, Oh no way when it comes from going to one app to another. Every company seems top like to use there own dang system so it changes everything and if we the artists do not have at least a dummy guide on certain areas then we as artists are screwed mostly.
I think Bobby has a very good idea and as far as I know, all serious Programs and company's all Have Books on just for there end users so we can have a book for dummies. Not other books that cost 90.00 bucks and you get 2-3 chapters out of it, but something that is all TG2. I for one would spend 100 bucks on it if you would make one. Most people I have known that started using TG2 have left as they say it is to hard to work with. Maybe listen to them? A book would be I would think a no brainer to release when you release the final version.
What you do is all the programmers take there notes that they do when they are working and document those first, then work outwards from there. 3D Max uses a company by "Elliott & Miller" in there inside 3D Max books they put out each new build, so come on guys it ain't that hard, just have to remember to document well while your working is all. At least that is what my programmer is telling me about all this.
I would love to see a either inside Terragen or Terragen for dummies when you release the final version, and at the rate you guys are working on it, looks like the book company could beat you to publishing hahahahahaha.
I personally love this program and will stay until it either makes it or PS goes belly up, but other then a few nice pictures here and there it is not floating my boat these days. I would really love to see this project finished and have you all working on the next stage:
GETTING IT SO WE CAN BRING IN ANY MODEL WE DARN WELL PLEASE AND HAVE OUR TEXTURE AND MESH ISSUES FIXED FOR GOOD. EVEN WHEN YOU BREAK UP A MODEL AND BRING THEM IN, IT SEEMS TO HAVE A 32 MESH/TEXTURE LIMIT AND THAT IS JUST LAME NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK AT IT. ALSO PLEASE FIX THE MESH/TEXTURE EDITOR AS IT IS AND THAT WOULD SURE HELP MANY OF US TONS IN HAVING OUR ARTIST NEEDS MET WHILE WE WAIT FOR YOU TO GET TO US.
This is a wonderful program and I think if issues like documentation would get better many of the people that left would come back. But what do I know, I am just a lowly artist who has his own little company is all, trying to make it just like you guys so I really do understand more then you might think.
Anyway Jo thanks so much for that long post and it is the best post I have seen by any of the staff other then Oshyan on this website and I for one really enjoyed reading it.
Now go find a way to share with us the differences in all this shader stuff please and explain why when a shader is a shader then why do you all have different ways of doing it, to the point where a shader is not a shader anymore from app to app. That one has me bugged more then learning shaders since I work in video game tech, I have been pulling my hair out over that little fact, so a dummies book I think should be on the front burner with you guys. But that is just me, and I watch these posts to learn how to make my Company better and not make the same mistakes that other Companies do, I hope /winks.......
Thanks so very much Jo, you the man /hugs
DT
For anyone having problems with the math underlying the functions this page looks like it may be useful.
http://www.themathpage.com/atrig/trigonometry.htm
There are other lessons from basic arithmetic to calculus, there is also a general introduction to functions:
http://www.themathpage.com/aPreCalc/functions.htm
Devil post Mr_L ;D Thanks for the links, I have a paper written by a friend of mine on atmospheric rendering, the concepts aren't that hard but all the mathematical calculations do my noggin in.
Ha ha most of us are artists not programmers who work in TG2. Two different kinds of beasts. LOLOlolol. And yes it gives me headaches every day trying to riddle it all out myself. Yep I will take a look at them myself. haha INC headaches.
DT
The point that still seems to be being missed is that function nodes are available as a more in-depth way of building things in TG2, but they are not fundamental or vital to working in TG2, and in fact the vast majority of TG2 users never use them. So don't assume they are necessarily important to your own work, and don't worry too much about not understanding them. Jo is absolutely correct - if you want to use functions, you will need to learn the general language and mindset of working with these kinds of operators. This is something that has been covered many times before, and far better than we could ever do, so I encourage anyone interested in functions to look into the resources Jo and others have referenced.
As for documentation, we will definitely be providing a complete set of information about TG2's major areas and capabilities, as well as an outline of each node. Books like "Inside This Software Program" are almost invariably written by 3rd parties, not the developers. It's simply not the strength of a software developer to write books, especially at the level of the layman. I would very much encourage the writing of such a book for TG2, but I think it's unfair to say it is our responsibility, or even necessarily a good idea for us to do (especially given all the other things we have to work on ;D).
- Oshyan
I think a "Functions for Dummies" book would be very helpful to everyone, but it will never be made. There is really no need for a book such as this; most users are either scared off by the network view before ever getting in-depth with it or simply lack the knowledge to ever use TG2 to its full potential.
For instance:
Quote from: Christopher on July 06, 2008, 05:23:55 PM
Any wonder i stopped using this application. Good concepts for terrains but poor execution of functionality and terminology. :'(
This seems ignorant. The main problem with Terragen remains its user; if things seem to complicated, it's labeled as a bad program. Terragen has more than good concepts for terrains, it offers control over every aspect of their creation, and the node network only simplifies this and gives more options for creation. Just because a program overwhelms you doesn't mean you should immediately think it's over your head and quit.
Part of the fun of using Terragen is learning about the node network; the best way to learn how nodes work and interact with each other is to test them and view the results real time. You have to have an idea of what you are trying to create, and then use the node network to achieve that goal.
My point is, you don't have to know what every term means or what every node does to be able to use this program well. Instead you can use simple reasoning and a few tests to find out how to do what you are trying to do. You don't need a book to tell you what everything is - most of the function nodes will rarely be used in a scene. Most all scenes in Terragen will never require a user to go out and learn what each mathematical function means. If you are such an experienced user that you are developing a need to use these functions, then you probably already have the initiative to go out and learn what they mean on your own accord.
Just my thoughts.
Just my thoughts - There is good enough reason for this program to be used by more than a handful of dweebs (interpreted brainiacs), so I'm guessing it's in Planetside's best interests to make things as clear as possible. One of the problems I've had from the beginning has been that this dweeb has not always understood Planetside's wording or the Planetside terminology definitions conflict with other industry defiinitions. This makes learning
hard and counterproductive for most people.
I think, for the most part, that this program is written at such a highly technical level that it's quite a stoop to touch the average person. Anyway, it isn't worth arguing about. TG2 needs some books written to make this stuff easier to understand and, of course, to enable much better work than we've seen so far.
So...I think Christopher is probably the tip of the iceberg in terms of the potentially failed marketplace for Planetside. That might change, if the right people published something worthwhile. This has happened before with other software.
Quote from: Blonderator on July 10, 2008, 02:39:30 PM
For instance:
Quote from: Christopher on July 06, 2008, 05:23:55 PM
Any wonder i stopped using this application. Good concepts for terrains but poor execution of functionality and terminology. :'(
This seems ignorant.
Regardless, this forum has, at least for me, served well as a virtual guide for dummies. I've been trolling here for many months and learned nearly everything I know about the program from these forums. I think a more plausible future solution would be a user made wiki explaining all the terminology. As there seems to be a relatively large user base here, if we all teamed up to help each other, it would be a much less daunting task.
Blonderator - such a thing has crossed my mind, though I like the idea of writing a book. ;D
The wiki idea is probably the easiest. I made this really quickly. Usually this stuff never catches on, at least not for very long but it's there if anyone wants to add what they know to it. I'll certainly be adding what I know if people are interested.
http://terragen.wikispaces.com/
Would we be able to put one on Wikipedia?
Even discussions about seperate pages for Terragen 2 have been dismissed. I put the wikispaces one up to see if it gains popularity. If it does then I'll create a full wiki on my server but there's no point doing it before then if no one uses it.
Hi,
Quote from: calico on July 10, 2008, 07:21:03 PM
Would we be able to put one on Wikipedia?
The documentation area is a Wiki. As far as I'm aware anyone can make use of it. You can change my function node documentation if you like, for example.
Regards,
Jo
Hell no, Jo. I love your documentation. I wasn't the one complaining about that. ;D
What I was wondering is if we put together all of our grouped tutorials, etc., if we couldn't put that on Wikipedia. I don't think Wikipedia allows that, though, does it? Anyway, I have been keeping a document (messy document) folder with multiple tutorials, etc. and something like that could be copied somewhere. Then, it could be organized. I'm not volunteering. :P
Quote from: jo on July 10, 2008, 08:31:57 PM
Hi,
Quote from: calico on July 10, 2008, 07:21:03 PM
Would we be able to put one on Wikipedia?
The documentation area is a Wiki. As far as I'm aware anyone can make use of it. You can change my function node documentation if you like, for example.
Regards,
Jo
Hi Calico,
Quote from: calico on July 10, 2008, 10:08:42 PM
Hell no, Jo. I love your documentation. I wasn't the one complaining about that. ;D
What I was wondering is if we put together all of our grouped tutorials, etc., if we couldn't put that on Wikipedia. I don't think Wikipedia allows that, though, does it? Anyway, I have been keeping a document (messy document) folder with multiple tutorials, etc. and something like that could be copied somewhere. Then, it could be organized. I'm not volunteering. :P
You didn't understand me :-) - the documentation area is a Wiki, just like Wikipedia. Anyone can add stuff or make changes in a collaborative environment and all that jazz. If someone wanted to start a "Functions for Dummies" section in the documentation part of the forums, they can. Someone could add a skeleton, others could add content, others could add examples, make corrections etc. etc.
I was just giving my documentation as an example. If you wanted to add an example of how to use a particular function to what I've written, you could do it, I don't mind ( unless it's a really bad example ;-). For example, in the Node Reference the Group node documentation was originally written by Frank and then I went in and tidied it up a bit. This is exactly like Wikipedia, it uses the same technology ( Wiki ) that Wikipedia does.
I don't think we have any user limits for adding content in the documentation area, you just have to be registered for the forums. Oshyan would know for sure.
Regards,
Jo
Actually at present the documentation is not open for generalized editing. Part of the reason for that is that, unlike a true Wiki, this forum-based implementation (while nicely integrated with the discussion areas) does not have versioning and some other important features for a multi-user environment. So if someone goes in to edit an entry and their edits turn out not to be appropriate, there is no way to revert to a previous version. I think a proper Wiki is an important system to make available but it's undecided yet whether that would be the best place to keep the official documentation. We do intend to provide a basic reference for all the nodes and to complete the existing documentation of the various areas of Terragen 2 (terrain, atmosphere, lighting, etc.).
- Oshyan
So...we're back to the book idea. ;D
Well a .pdf collection, maybe a series of collections dealing with different subjects. Some for absolute newbies which could incorperate existing materials online ie: elementary surfacing with procedural and image map methods explained point by point. Another one could be a simple glossary of the terms used in layman's language. Another dealing with Atmosphere and Clouds. Etc.. I realize most of this is already covered but it would, at least for me, be very handy to have an off line reference without having to do a search of the forum and sometimes forgetting what my question was in the process, heh heh heh, but maybe that's just me as well.. ...
Something like this would be good, Bobby. I have plenty of tutorials I've copied into a Word document and it would be no difficult task to copy it into a document, format it as PDF and publish it.
Like I said, though, I'm not volunteering. My point in this case is that a lot of the information is already here for something elementary like this.
Nevertheless, I'm thinking someday a book on A-Z TG2 will come out to fill a void. Of course, maybe I'm getting the wagon in front of the horse. To a release - http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=4286.0
Personaly I think a book idea is very good and important, but I like Bobbies idea as well and both should be in place, weather you are a newbie or a vet, we all need that info and I get tired of trying to remember where I saw something I needed and could not find it as to many links on this website and my own data base is over 5 Terrabits and OMG ever try and find weired stuff in that kind of volume?. So a book is very good idea /smiles.....I bought the 3D Game studio Engine and the firsdt thing I did was go to Amazon and buy all the books on it that I could to stuff it in my head better and faster. As I can take books with me to study from doctors Apts, to going on a nice bike ride to the beach and settling down and have a good read to get off the computers and take a brake.
/cheers
We will be providing the final documentation in an offline-readable and printable format like PDF.
- Oshyan
Oh...now that will be nice...in more difficult things I often will print out a few pages now and again just to pour over them as DT seems to like to do.. ...
Because I am using the free version of TG2 I am more or less forced to reach out for any available work around to over come the limits of my try out program, and the procedural/function option appears as a possible method to create simulated none-tgo objects and also is a given help with geometry generated formula for certain ground textures like sand ripples.
JimB has suggested in another thread that a repository of function related clip files could be created. I would like to see such an archive of TG2 math function resource files put together in conjunction with a short tutorial on the implimentation of these conditional modifiers, and of couse as suggested in this thread written in a short and fairly simple/easy to understand form.
Hi,
Quote from: arisdemos on July 12, 2008, 03:15:41 PM
in conjunction with a short tutorial on the implimentation of these conditional modifiers, and of couse as suggested in this thread written in a short and fairly simple/easy to understand form.
Have you read the documentation for the conditional node in the Node Reference?
Regards,
Jo
It would help me if there was a text readout of the values of the node when I click on the node in the editor. It would help both understanding and debugging
Mick
Hi Jo: I have read the conditional syntax definitions in the documentation section as well as your related comments in this thread. Is the function of the scalar and bolean nodes to sequentially feed the computer/program a set of solution related theoroms? Are the returned yes, no, and null answers to these questions intended to combine and ultimately yield the required scalars, vectors, variables and constants that will describe the color, geometry, and 3 dimentional logic of the graphic image?
I remember a time befor the HP hand held computer when we did compound trig functions by hand to obtain locations for structural steel connections, and it was hell to spend ones day in a mountain of paper. Then came those little canned programs on a strip of tape that you just plugged in the values and that math jungle suddenly was swept away, and what a relief it was!. To me the solution that I see described in that fellow's tutorial on sand ripples is something that could be given like a tgo but in a clip file, and then I could more easily move on to other problems like getting those ripples into certain defined locations within my graphic geography.
I am mainly suggesting that an archive of TG2 primative shapes such as a cone, a torus, or even possibly some useful curved flat sheets sections be made available in clip file form along with a placement description of setting up all the required nodes to get the shapes/colors on site via masks, displacement, ect. within a default plane of my tgd. I am perhaps shooting in the dark here, but I would like to see TG2 grow into a more useful artistic tool without getting a math induced brain freeze by having to keep track of a mountain of trig functions and the zillions of ones and zeroes in the conditional calculus. Then maybe I can make a picture of mount Fujiama blowing cute little smoke rings.
Arisdemos suggests the ideal compromise, in my opinion.
The final (commercial) version of T2 should include a library of modules (supplementary shaders, clip files) which the general user can easily insert to provide some functional enhancement to the scene such as cracked sun-baked mud or wavy sand forms. Each module will ideally have simple controls to vary its basic parameters (such as scale), but the complex network of functions that combine to give the desired effect is hidden from the user. For those who want to tweak the contributing functions, there should be an option to access them.
The inclusion of such a library of modules (which will hopefully grow as those users who enjoy building function networks add to them) would, I believe, make the functional intricacies of T2 more accessible to many more users and go a long way towards making it a more popular 3d landscaping program.
ps: the number of readings this thread has had attests to the demand for some solution like the above to be acted upon.
Hi Mick,
Quote from: mhaze on July 13, 2008, 11:24:19 AM
It would help me if there was a text readout of the values of the node when I click on the node in the editor. It would help both understanding and debugging
There is a new node in TP4 called the Notifier node, which can be found in the Debug submenu of the Functions menu, which is just for this. I'm still working on the documentation for it though, should have that ready in the next day or two. Basically, it can display values which are flowing through the network, or notify when some condition is met.
Regards,
Jo
Hi,
I'll try and get to the first part of your question tomorrow, but I can answer the following now.
Quote from: arisdemos on July 13, 2008, 12:07:14 PM
I am mainly suggesting that an archive of TG2 primative shapes such as a cone, a torus, or even possibly some useful curved flat sheets sections be made available in clip file form along with a placement description of setting up all the required nodes to get the shapes/colors on site via masks, displacement, ect. within a default plane of my tgd. I am perhaps shooting in the dark here, but I would like to see TG2 grow into a more useful artistic tool without getting a math induced brain freeze by having to keep track of a mountain of trig functions and the zillions of ones and zeroes in the conditional calculus. Then maybe I can make a picture of mount Fujiama blowing cute little smoke rings.
As part of what Oshyan was saying about not needing to use functions to do a lot of stuff in TG2, you could already create the scene you're talking about without using functions in a much more "artistic" way. Draw Fuji-san in a paint app as a greyscale heightmap, 16 bit if you've got tools which can handle that. Draw greyscale masks for your cute little smoke rings. Import it all into TG2 using the appropriate nodes, and away you go. You can use TG2s displacement capabilities via surface layers and such to add extra detail to the heightfield so it doesn't look so much like a heightfield. I just had a quick go at using a ring image map to control clouds just like this thread was about using functions, and it only took me a few minutes to get the same sort of results, entirely through using an image map created in Photoshop to control the coverage of a cloud layer. You don't need to use functions in this case.
Regards,
Jo
"I just had a quick go at using a ring image map to control clouds"
Now there's an idea...I'd love to see the network for this, and what mapping you used for the rings, etc. Had a play with an idea like this a while back but was met with resounding failure so I retreated ....but the interest remains.. ...
Hi Jo
Thanks for that, sounds just what i need
Mick
I am in full agreement with arisdemos and schmeerlap.
I think an organized library of "canned" textures/node networks would be a big help. Not only would it get people up and running faster, it would provide a ready made set of functional examples to learn from. Sure, you can search this forum and find almost anything you want but it can be tedious to track down the best match for what you are trying to achieve. It can be even more difficult to piece together an understanding of how to use or modify a specific .tgc (for example) from the often disjointed and fragmentary comments posted in a thread. The existing tutorials are a good start but they only scratch the surface of what TG can do.
Hi Jo: The Fuji thing was only said in fun, and I realize one can easily create a DEM replica of Fuji-San and possibly manipulate the cloud structure to create a volcano like eruption structure. I think I should reiterate with some vigor that procedural driven geometries/textures with an archive of clip files that can be easily accessed and implimented on the tgd geography structure could possibly become a useful tool kit to augment the somewhat limited capabilities of the tgo function. I have observed the voronoi manipulation of terrains by Volker, and certain ones, if viewed in miniture could almost look like the natural formed structure of a mushroom clusters. In Terragen like in most things The Devil is in the details, and it is obvious that this program that can somewhat easily create the majesty of an entire planet yet seems at least historically to have had some of the greatest user difficulty in creating just a drop of water. Much is obviously being mastered by the PS collective effort towards natural form generation, but let us not forget those little things like function making a good ergonomic fit to human creative realities.
Quote from: bobbystahr on July 14, 2008, 09:53:21 AM
"I just had a quick go at using a ring image map to control clouds"
Now there's an idea...I'd love to see the network for this, and what mapping you used for the rings, etc. Had a play with an idea like this a while back but was met with resounding failure so I retreated ....but the interest remains.. ...
The node network would be simple - just plug an Image Map Shader into the Blend Shader input of your Cloud Density Function and turn on Blend By Shader, then load the image in your Image Map Shader. Now, depending on where the clouds you want to mask are, you can either use PlanY projection, an appropriate image scale (in meters), and adjust the position to mask the clouds in the area you need, or (perhaps easier) position a camera looking down on your scene just where you'd want your ring of clouds to be, then use that to connect to the Image Map Shader and set it to Through Camera Projection.
- Oshyan
Hi,
I just thought I'd mention I've added ( but not proofread very well :-) documentation for the Notifier node ( available in TP4 ) I mentioned to Mick. You can find it here (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=4454).
Sorry I haven't done examples using the conditional node yet, I've been busy with other things.
Also, I'm sorry to have been misleading about the documentation section, I had thought it was still open for editing. Shame it isn't really, it would be good if we could get a full Wiki going.
Regards,
Jo