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General => Image Sharing => Topic started by: Dune on April 13, 2018, 12:57:05 PM

Title: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 13, 2018, 12:57:05 PM
A new commission for a 3x12m museum wall. I have great difficulties getting these people to look right, and I know, maybe render them elsewhere and comp in, but I'd really like to at least try and do it all in TG.
Folds in clothing look good in ZB (or Poseray for that matter), but they are quite lost in TG. Struggling with hair to, but learning a lot while working on it.
Ground needs much work still, as all else  ;)
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: archonforest on April 13, 2018, 01:01:35 PM
another museum pjt! Great. I loved the early one a lot. Good start for sure.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Hannes on April 13, 2018, 01:45:03 PM
Quote from: Dune on April 13, 2018, 12:57:05 PM
Folds in clothing look good in ZB (or Poseray for that matter), but they are quite lost in TG. Struggling with hair to, but learning a lot while working on it.

Hmmm, could you show an example image of the folds in ZB or Poseray?
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 13, 2018, 05:41:22 PM
Quite the challenge, great start!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: masonspappy on April 13, 2018, 09:10:02 PM
Hair is one of the harder things to accomplish in Terragen.  Which explains why so many male objects are bald.... :)
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Lady of the Lake on April 13, 2018, 10:22:57 PM
Great work....my only comment is that the blonde's expression looks like she is in pain.   ;)
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 14, 2018, 01:19:56 AM
Maybe the pot's too heavy for her.... I'll make screendump of the folds in ZB.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: René on April 14, 2018, 01:56:50 AM
You realize, of course, that making convincing people is the hardest thing to do in 3D software. You might try to fake subsurfing scattering for the skin, don't ask me how. Maybe you can generate an extra layer of fold-like structures for the clothes in Terragen, and apply them gently over the folds that already exist. By the way, I saw your work in the Limburgs Museum a few years ago, in fact, this was the most important reason for my visit. It's incredible that you've managed to do this. My compliments!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: mhaze on April 14, 2018, 05:04:22 AM
Great start.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 14, 2018, 07:03:25 AM
Thanks guys. And thanks for visiting the museum, René. It's quite something, huh? I had a lot of render help from some of the guys here. You have to go again for the Venlo medieval city, 12x4m, backlit. In fact I haven't even seen it myself, but it's not nextdoors.

Btw. here are some ZB renders.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 14, 2018, 11:46:38 AM
The only problem (if there really is one) with the clothing I see is...Do you have a way to assign the weight of your cloth? For example, silk, denim, leather, linen? Whatever you have done here looks very silky and falls nicely, but I would expect a little more coarseness for fabric in this time period. Can you find a bumpier diffuse texture? Woven texture would be very primitive here, I would say. If it is animal hide, which would be smooth would work, but it is way too soft and thin.

I don't mind the hair but rough up that parting down the center bit. Fluff that up and give it some uneven spikes.

Oh btw, I was a licensed hairdresser for years, and you are correct, modeling hair is difficult even when you have a clue. :)
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: SILENCER on April 14, 2018, 12:13:47 PM
I'd render the characters elsewhere and composite.
It'll eliminate the manequinn skin look and allow for some subtlety in the cloth.
I'm a lightwave guy, so I'd do it in LW and Octane. Use the Terragen render (or out put a TG spherical render minus the vegetation) as the GI map. The GI or AO buffers out of Octane will bring out those shadowed areas of the faces for more realism.

The female character in the white dress looks like she's no stranger to preacher curls. She'll kick your ass.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 14, 2018, 12:35:51 PM
Thanks for your input! I'd really have to dive into comping and rendering in LW, but the trouble is that I have these subtle skinfaults and dirt on clothes as tgo shaders. I haven't a clue how to achieve that in LW (yet, but I'll get into it). But perhaps my time before deadline is too short to get into extra learning curves.

Btw. LUVS; these are renders without any texture. I do have coarse linnen as texture, with bump (and dirt), in the TG renders. And hair modeling is something I still have to get used to. As a former hairdresser you'd love the fibermesh in ZBrush  ;)
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: bobbystahr on April 14, 2018, 04:00:07 PM
Wow, pretty damn good. I think a per object option for Ambient occlusion would help the folds problem....
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 15, 2018, 01:41:23 AM
I did try mapping the depths in ZB and adding this as color darkening in TG, but that wasn't as I hoped for. One thing that may have lightened the folds too much is an increase in GI (to get lighter tree canopies, and shadows overall). I'll experiment a bit more.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: René on April 15, 2018, 05:29:48 AM
The folds in the fabric look good in Zbrush and I can see why that is not the case in Terragen. The shiny texture in Zbrush makes the folds stand out better. Perhaps if you adjust the texture and lighting in Zbrush during sculpting to the Terragen version, you have a better idea of what the end result will be in Terragen.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: j meyer on April 15, 2018, 12:35:07 PM
If your are using a Matcap material in ZB then this has baked in lighting. You could do that, too.
AO masking and deriving an AO image to combine with your texture in TG would be something
worth to try as well. And/or painting AO.
For the hair you might consider to paint it traditionally or at least refine it that way.
Just my two cents.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 16, 2018, 01:58:14 AM
Thanks guys. You're both right. Maybe the folds need to be exxagerated. I've now put a wrinkled cloth bumpmap across, on top of the cloth texture itself, which give more definition, though it's not really accurate of course. And I don't want extremely high polycounts, so don't want to sculpt any wrinkle. These people are about 100Mb now.
I realized painting in some extra hairs is definitely easier and faster after the main render is done.

Here's another person I just made. The young hare (and the clothing) is not yet really good, but I'll work on that.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: bobbystahr on April 16, 2018, 07:59:26 AM
Good skin on the guy and really nice hair on the hare...
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Kadri on April 16, 2018, 08:58:12 AM

Skin looks better in the last image.
Wasn't there a thread about skin? Hannes had a good one if i remember right?
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Hannes on April 16, 2018, 04:22:10 PM
I think the skin looks great here. My solutions sometimes looked good and sometimes didn't. Since there is still (!) no real subsurface scattering it depends on the object if the fake SSS works.
I'd say in this case it's as good as it can be.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 17, 2018, 01:28:00 AM
Slowly it's taking shape, but still a lot of stuff to handle. I'm not unpleased with the skins, but the clothes are no good. Some hair needs change, the right kid is ugly (left also a bit), stuff in wooden trough should be clay, I need some wetness where they worked with the clay, some fresh pots, smoke from the earth kiln (maybe I will comp that in, so I need a small, whirly smoke column and an alpha, or I piant in), more small grasses or other to cover bare ground, stuff happening near the houses, some cattle, the right house has a texture error. And lots of small things I will change in post, like the pops of flat hay on the roofs don't cover it entirely as I wish.
No post on these yet, but had to cut in two, to fit here.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 17, 2018, 01:28:41 AM
And right side. Any additional comments are very welcome!!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: N-drju on April 17, 2018, 02:03:51 AM
Wow, you did such an impressive job on that hunter guy... Now he looks as if he was rendered in DS with the 3Delight render engine. Which is good. Great accomplishment as for TG-only rendered person!

Frankly, I don't know how you guys make your groundcover so nice. Maybe it's a matter of diversity - I always put about five species of grass and when combined, they always look like English lawn in the end... :P
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 17, 2018, 02:27:11 AM
Thanks Andrej. Actually I need more groundcover to cover all bare ground in the front area. These are I think 5 grasses and one flower. Along the brook I planted another species (just one is already doing nicely). I may add some more, and I want some yellow flowering plants. I'm also keen on making some orchids for the very front. You need some very different species to get diversity and use PF's to get uneven mixes.
The left tree will be cut by some guy I still need to make, there will be a 'hunebed' (grave), and some already cut tree remains, etc.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: N-drju on April 17, 2018, 07:46:47 AM
It's "Andrzej". ;) Though most foreigners address me as "André" which is fairly decent too. :D

Even despite a few empty spots, I still think that the foliage looks alright. After all, sometimes you get bare ground between the grass IRL.

What is this red circle on the side of the building doing? Just a placeholder?
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 17, 2018, 10:38:56 AM
No, that's where I need to change the texture. Sorry about your name's omitted Z, I'll keep it in mind.

I've made some very nice low grasses and some orchids (Dactylorhiza maculata) to be added.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: bobbystahr on April 17, 2018, 10:55:06 AM
Looking really good and you know best re: foliage but  I'd dirty up the bare feet a bit. They look un-naturally clean in the situation.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Hannes on April 17, 2018, 11:00:47 AM
Looks fantastic, Ulco. But you're right, the folds look strange. No idea, what this is...
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: N-drju on April 17, 2018, 11:59:56 AM
Quote from: bobbystahr on April 17, 2018, 10:55:06 AM
Looking really good and you know best re: foliage but  I'd dirty up the bare feet a bit. They look un-naturally clean in the situation.

Good point!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: otakar on April 17, 2018, 04:56:23 PM
ok, they people look like freshly scrubbed, but the dynamic here is killer. These custom poses and plant objects make a huge difference. I am sure you'll get the clothes to look more realistic. It would not be as noticeable on a smaller scale, but if this thing is 3m tall, then yes you'll need better quality. Epic render, as usual!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 18, 2018, 01:02:59 AM
Good idea, Bobby, thanks.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: bobbystahr on April 18, 2018, 01:28:50 AM
Quote from: Dune on April 18, 2018, 01:02:59 AM
Good idea, Bobby, thanks.
my pleasure
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 18, 2018, 05:05:56 AM
Small test of my new treecutter, and an orchid.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: bobbystahr on April 18, 2018, 09:39:22 AM
love the orchid, but I've always loved orchids...interesting 'lumberjack'....needs sweat on his brow...heh heh...
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 18, 2018, 10:08:34 AM
Nice1 !
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 18, 2018, 01:08:18 PM
Some more tests...
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 18, 2018, 01:23:43 PM
That guy works fast!  All very nice, and I do like the bangs! :) Lots of great progress.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: sboerner on April 18, 2018, 01:24:46 PM
Just beautiful, a real inspiration.

What kind of beasts are those in the second image? Boars?
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 19, 2018, 01:52:36 AM
Yes, recently domesticated wild pigs. I turned the left one a bit in the meantime. And I have to work fast, because deadline is end of next week or so, rendered at 24000px wide.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: N-drju on April 19, 2018, 02:16:53 AM
If I were you, I would modify the second lady from the right. The one with a bright shirt. I don't know why, but her hair looks kind of strange... like a bunch of straw put together. Also notice her feet - somehow it looks to me as if she had hooves... :-[ Maybe change the feet posing or rotate the model a bit.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 19, 2018, 03:10:05 AM
You mean this one, or the one with the pot? This one has a bit fluffy hair indeed, which I may change. The other has it tied to the back of her head. The circled feet look a bit big indeed. They are rough leather boots, and the right foot looks very large (which it isn't really). Perhaps there's a stone just at her toes...  Perhaps I'll try one without the boots (just set opacity to zero).
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Luc on April 19, 2018, 05:52:31 AM
Fine work and I always appreciate your images because they tell each time a story
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 20, 2018, 02:25:17 AM
I found the AO masking in ZB and it sure does a good job at getting more depth in the folds. That was a good idea.
And another small test. Still work to do (on the handfull of poly's, skintone and the dress, e.g.). With the deadline next week, I can't afford new learning curves I'm afraid, so it'll be full TG.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: bobbystahr on April 20, 2018, 11:02:57 AM
Rocking result Ulco...deadlines sometimes suck the creativity out of a project but you'll be fine....
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Antoine on April 21, 2018, 01:22:46 AM
Great works! People are very realistic too!

David.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 23, 2018, 01:40:39 AM
Last concept/WIP before the final render will start. Cut in two again. I had to blur some areas, otherwise I couldn't post here. This is rendered in 2.5 hours at 0.5 and 5. Some minor things I want to change.
The big central rock is an old grave, btw. (hunebed). I had first made it by 2 simple shapes (one for the hill, and one for vdisping the entrance), and some painted areas on top to show top stones (just texture), but later build a real hunebed to sit in that hill.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 23, 2018, 01:41:07 AM
And the right part.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Hannes on April 23, 2018, 02:31:49 AM
Fantastic progress, Ulco!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: bobbystahr on April 23, 2018, 02:51:00 AM
Wow, veg  as always is awesome and good job on the bare feet. I also like the sweaty shine on the guy who just ran down a hare. Great job on that thatching.....
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 25, 2018, 03:29:33 AM
24000x6860px at 0.6 and 6 + soft shadows rendered in 25 hours. Not bad at all. Used 18gig. Unfortunately some textures were unattached when the file was opened on another machine with all objects and textures similar, and I still wonder why this happens occasionally. I had to re-render parts, but with such fast rendering it's not bothering me. Now just hope colors match a bit, as I didn't use GI cache.

Anyway, it looks pretty awesome, if I may say so myself. I could of course have rendered at 0.8 and 16 or so, but it's 'just' a backdrop anyway.
I can't wait to see it on the museumwall. Some minor postwork to be done. Here's a few details. I'll add some more later, if there's interest.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: N-drju on April 25, 2018, 03:51:16 AM
Good job Ulco. As per GI cache, I once saved a cache file and then used it on four separate render crops. They did not match at all. ::) So it's a good solution, not always. Strange but true.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Kadri on April 25, 2018, 05:02:08 AM

Looks nice. I would like to see more.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: bobbystahr on April 25, 2018, 08:06:36 AM
Impressive and great render times for that stunning detail...more crops please and thank you. I'll just bet your chomping on the bit to see the wall....
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: j meyer on April 25, 2018, 01:22:40 PM
Yep, more would be nice.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on April 26, 2018, 01:31:10 AM
Okay, some details of the people. I'd like to perfect those in the future, but I think it's not bad within the time given to finish this. The teal is post, and so is the fraying of the cloth.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: bobbystahr on April 26, 2018, 08:11:57 AM
Well the cloth is great in my books...still kinda baby-faced folks but unless you're a PoserDAZ pro, getting character in them dolls is a bit of a chore. Never had any luck in my tries...guess I'm no good 'playing with dolls' as I started thinking of it, or just have a distaste for them from all my time Moderating on the Poser site renderosity. Wish I'd spent my first years in 3D learning soft organic modeling.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: j meyer on April 26, 2018, 02:29:27 PM
Indeed, considering the time frame and the fact that you are only one person doing
all of it it's definitely 'not bad'. And the next ones will be even better, I'm sure. :)
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: pclavett on April 26, 2018, 09:45:41 PM
Stunning work as always Ulco !
Paul
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on June 02, 2018, 02:50:00 AM
Okay, so the museum was officially opened yesterday. Here you have some images from the wall I did, before the masses came. The lighting from behind really makes it stand out and when you enter that very dark area it seems you have a view outside. Quite pleased again  ;)
Btw. the big stones are (replaced) remains of a burial mound found in the north of Holland. 
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Kadri on June 02, 2018, 02:56:53 AM

Awesome  :)
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: masonspappy on June 02, 2018, 04:34:27 AM
Wow! That is remarkably well done! :)
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: archonforest on June 02, 2018, 05:38:58 AM
WOW! This is very cool!!!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Jo Kariboo on June 02, 2018, 07:59:07 AM
Excellent work, a beautiful installation very well integrated into a museum. Congratulations.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Hannes on June 02, 2018, 08:12:32 AM
Fantastic Ulco!! Must be great to see your work in this environment!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: bobbystahr on June 02, 2018, 08:19:32 AM
Beautiful, must feel awesome to walk into that...congratulations.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: luvsmuzik on June 02, 2018, 10:44:47 AM
What a victory! In my hometown we have b/w photos enlarged to fill storefront windows at the museum. Photos from 1880s forward. Your replications presented with artifacts is awesome!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: j meyer on June 02, 2018, 01:30:40 PM
 :) Another cool museum piece.
Every town should have one. ;)
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Oshyan on June 02, 2018, 04:34:20 PM
Very cool! Such a big installation, impressive.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on June 03, 2018, 01:49:10 AM
Thanks all. It sure feels good, but also a bit confrontational, as you see all the things that I should/could have improved. But there was no time actually, so it's alright. I was especially glad with a total rendertime of only 15 hours or so (I believe it was) for such big and detailed image. Long live Planetside!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: DocCharly65 on June 03, 2018, 04:04:50 AM
Congatulations, Ulco. A big and beautiful installation! :)
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on June 03, 2018, 07:03:53 AM
Thanks, Nils.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: J_Con on June 03, 2018, 08:36:58 AM
Awsome.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: bobbystahr on June 03, 2018, 10:14:35 AM
15 hours is quite an impressive speed record for such a huge image...way t go planetside indeed!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: mhaze on June 03, 2018, 11:23:33 AM
Impressive work.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on June 04, 2018, 08:00:57 AM
One more (by someone else) for better size relations.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: DocCharly65 on June 12, 2018, 02:21:37 AM
Hey - nice render - how did you do the hair of the little blonde girl between the stones in the foreground? ... only the pose of the old man model next to her looks a bit unnatural ;D ;D

;)

In fact a great exibition.
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: René on June 12, 2018, 02:48:45 AM
That looks fantastic Ulco, as if you just could walk into it. The people are more or less life-size, isn't it?
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: archonforest on June 12, 2018, 03:10:23 AM
Absolutely amazing!
Title: Re: TB-scene
Post by: Dune on June 12, 2018, 03:56:18 AM
Yes, that was the idea, to have a backdrop which you feel part of, so I made the people more or less life size (they were a bit smaller back then). I also had to take care that the lower part was 12m wide in the terrain, same as the wall, for the right sizes of the grasses and herbs.

The girl's hair was a pain to get right  :P