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General => Image Sharing => Topic started by: René on July 15, 2018, 12:39:42 PM

Title: Underwater scene
Post by: René on July 15, 2018, 12:39:42 PM
Underwater scene. Proof of concept

I finally found the time to make something I have been planning for a long time, that is an underwater scene. I have tried this in the past, but with little success. In this render I have used quite a lot of atmospheric bloom, which seems appropriate in this context. It's a proof of concept, so there's still a lot to be done. The plants and fish are props that have to be replaced later.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: archonforest on July 15, 2018, 01:29:28 PM
pretty impressive work! Big like.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: WAS on July 15, 2018, 02:03:04 PM
Quote from: René on July 15, 2018, 12:39:42 PM
Underwater scene. Proof of concept

I finally found the time to make something I have been planning for a long time, that is an underwater scene. I have tried this in the past, but with little success. In this render I have used quite a lot of atmospheric bloom, which seems appropriate in this context. It's a proof of concept, so there's still a lot to be done. The plants and fish are props that have to be replaced later.

Your water debris are nice, did you use a v2 cloud? I have similar but was having issues with sizes and dispersion so disabled it for my shark render.

Really love the water "atmosphere" looks very convincing. Could possibly be more detail on the old coral. They tend to be soo jagged and full of algae blooms.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: masonspappy on July 15, 2018, 02:11:38 PM
that is quite lovely!
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: DocCharly65 on July 15, 2018, 04:23:34 PM
Beautiful scene! The atmosphere will cause quite high render times - right? :)
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: bobbystahr on July 15, 2018, 10:49:28 PM
Nice one Rene, underwater scenes are right up there for unintuitive at times but always worth it...you're on the right track.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: WAS on July 16, 2018, 12:01:36 AM
Quote from: bobbystahr on July 15, 2018, 10:49:28 PM
Nice one Rene, underwater scenes are right up there for unintuitive at times but always worth it...you're on the right track.

I've been working with this for a bit, right now I'm focusing on the water surface (from below) and it's quite counterintuitive. Some stuff seamed rather easy and obvious in my head but TG is like "I can't do that, Dave".
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Dune on July 16, 2018, 02:41:12 AM
That's a great start, René! The light and colors are wonderful. I'm pretty sure you know what to change, but I'll mention some things anyway that come to my mind; tiny bump holes on the corals at front, more raggedness in the rocks, and there seems to be a sharp distinction between waves and 'water' up left.
I wonder how you did the floating dirt, btw, which is really making it more real. I can imagine a few ways, but I'm just curious.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Hannes on July 16, 2018, 03:13:26 AM
Amazing, René! I agree with the others about some details, but this looks already fantastic. The only thing that I am missing and that would make the image even more realistic imho is some sort of color refraction. I don't know how this is called, but it's the look similar to chromatic aberration. I remember Ulco tried to create something like that for his own underwater scene.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: mhaze on July 16, 2018, 04:19:29 AM
Excellent start - wonderful mood and lighting. Really looking forward to seeing where this goes.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: ajcgi on July 16, 2018, 05:51:05 AM
I like the feel of this. Jacques Cousteau. ;)
I have an underwater scene on my to do list for my current project. They are tricky to get right as so much of the ocean is just ocean. You have a good sense of scale here.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: luvsmuzik on July 16, 2018, 08:15:33 AM
Another "Rene Special"

Great composition and complexity!  Those faint details in the murky water sooo good! Inspiring image! :) :) :)
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on July 30, 2018, 08:19:14 AM
I have many problems with scattering vegetation. There is a lot of overlap between instances. For trees or grass this is usually not a big problem, but in this case, there are big differences in shape and color so the flaws become very clear. I made masks to control the distribution, but with little success. I would be very happy to see a system in place to steer things in a logical way.
I think there is nothing else to it but to place the instances manually.

Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on July 30, 2018, 08:23:21 AM
The submarine model comes from: https://www.yobi3d.com/q/seaview%20submarine
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on July 30, 2018, 08:25:53 AM
The mask I used to scatter the 'vegetation'.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: DocCharly65 on July 30, 2018, 08:26:53 AM
Quote from: René on July 30, 2018, 08:19:14 AM
I think there is nothing else to it but to place the instances manually.

For small populations this way ist useful. But bigger populations with some hundred instances will be a horrible job...
What about editing pops after seed and saving the population cache? You need a strong PC and you have to do the job with preview settings in textured objects. But I think it could work.

Besides very cool and authentic underwater views! In the first I even didn't find overlapping objects :)
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on July 30, 2018, 08:31:09 AM
Quote from: Dune on July 16, 2018, 02:41:12 AM

I wonder how you did the floating dirt, btw, which is really making it more real. I can imagine a few ways, but I'm just curious.

It's a localized cloud
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on July 30, 2018, 08:40:38 AM

I can give it a try, but I really would like a more elaborate scattering system, not just for underwater scenes. :)
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Kadri on July 30, 2018, 10:02:25 AM

Nice work René.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Dune on July 30, 2018, 11:03:10 AM
Nice updates again. And thanks for sharing the debris. Not something you'd like to thank someone for in real life  ;)

Overlapping objects will only be really a problem in frontal areas, so a little editimg may come a long way. Unless you need to build a landscape for several shots or animation of course.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on July 30, 2018, 04:15:27 PM
:D
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Hannes on July 30, 2018, 05:20:21 PM
Incredible progress, René! Very cool images.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on August 10, 2018, 04:15:13 AM
So I think that using shadows is the only way to make fake caustics. Now I see myself faced with a problem: I really need very soft shadows for this scene, but when I use that, the whole look has disappeared.
Does anyone know a solution?
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: WAS on August 10, 2018, 04:26:05 AM
Quote from: René on August 10, 2018, 04:15:13 AM
So I think that using shadows is the only way to make fake caustics. Now I see myself faced with a problem: I really need very soft shadows for this scene, but when I use that, the whole look has disappeared.
Does anyone know a solution?

It looks like you may be hitting the opacity falloff, where it simply goes from transparent to blank. Have you tries a colour adjust playing with the point places? I think on one of my procedural caustics the waves were so subtle I had to use settings in the 0.000xx ranges. It's a little frustrating because what shows in 2D preview isn't what you'll get in the render.

Btw that looks lovely, the effect. How is the image map done? You just using the RGB map you made and blurring it with a central shadow map in PS?
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on August 10, 2018, 05:10:58 AM
I have used clouds for this.
The caustics in this case are shadows, which real caustics  are not. Soft shadows mean soft caustics, i.e. they become completely blurred. I wondered if there might be another way to fake caustics.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: bobbystahr on August 10, 2018, 08:43:24 AM
Quote from: René on August 10, 2018, 05:10:58 AM
I have used clouds for this.
The caustics in this case are shadows, which real caustics  are not. Soft shadows mean soft caustics, i.e. they become completely blurred. I wondered if there might be another way to fake caustics.


I'm personally praying for caustics and full greyscale transparency every night heh heh heh
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: luvsmuzik on August 10, 2018, 09:14:28 AM
Would the (somehow) projection of a hard vornoi cracks fractal mask fade (soften) as much as running the light through clouds? I am thinking like light passing through an iron grate or paned window type shadow.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on August 10, 2018, 09:41:40 AM
Quote from: luvsmuzik on August 10, 2018, 09:14:28 AM
Would the (somehow) projection of a hard vornoi cracks fractal mask fade (soften) as much as running the light through clouds? I am thinking like light passing through an iron grate or paned window type shadow.

I tried something like that with a card object and a very hard voronoi shader, but it didn't work very well. I think the culprit is the fact that these are shadows rather than concentrations of light.
I'm going to try to hide the hard shadows; that's not ideal but I can think up nothing else.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: WAS on August 10, 2018, 12:49:16 PM
Quote from: René on August 10, 2018, 05:10:58 AM
I have used clouds for this.
The caustics in this case are shadows, which real caustics  are not. Soft shadows mean soft caustics, i.e. they become completely blurred. I wondered if there might be another way to fake caustics.

If only we could use shadows like a light source. Or use sun's position to project a a court adjustment mask on the terrain which lightens and adjusts colours of the caustics area.

Though there are shadows in caustics. Technically it's what makes the caustics. We just see the light as the "active bits" rather than noting the shadows.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: luvsmuzik on August 10, 2018, 12:59:39 PM
A wire frame grid object does the trick if you can somehow distort it to resemble voronoi cells.....you wizard modelers could do this, I know. The soft shadows stay crisper anyway for me.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Dune on August 11, 2018, 02:57:29 AM
I would use lights. I made this a while ago, using three slightly shifted (0.7) suns with different colors and soft shadows. Shadows were cast through a 2D, very thin (2cm), almost black cloud layer (only secondary), just under the water surface, with a voronoi mask.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on August 11, 2018, 04:41:18 AM
Yeah, I remember that one well, very beautiful and effective image. The water in this picture is shallow and I think that's one of the problems I struggle with because I'm at a depth of 150 meters. Maybe I just want too much: caustics, Jacob's Ladders, murky water, etc. Thanks for the tips, I will continue to experiment for a while.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on August 11, 2018, 04:44:32 AM
Quote from: luvsmuzik on August 10, 2018, 12:59:39 PM
A wire frame grid object does the trick if you can somehow distort it to resemble voronoi cells.....you wizard modelers could do this, I know. The soft shadows stay crisper anyway for me.

That is interesting. I've made a few rough and ugly wireframe models of a water pattern, and what do you know; indeed, a caustic-like effect is created. Actually it looks more like bokeh, so I have to invert the effect. Now I wonder what happens when I use wireframe of a water surface.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on August 11, 2018, 04:56:29 AM
Quote from: WASasquatch on August 10, 2018, 12:49:16 PM
Though there are shadows in caustics. Technically it's what makes the caustics. We just see the light as the "active bits" rather than noting the shadows.

Okay, I'm not an expert in this area  :) although I did some reading on this subject. If it would help to create caustics I would dive into this matter but if it is simply not possible then all knowledge of the world will not help. :-\
How would you explain caustics on the bottom of a boat? Reflections?
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on August 11, 2018, 07:18:03 AM
New
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Dune on August 11, 2018, 10:25:11 AM
Terrific! I like the distant blur, very appropriate. Are these sponges and such real species, I mean, some have a bit of an artificial (blue) stem, e.g.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on August 11, 2018, 10:52:27 AM
All of them are xfrog species and they all really exist. I checked that; not to establish whether they are real, :) but to get an idea of where they are growing and how they relate to each other.
I have added chromatic aberration in Photoshop
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Hannes on August 11, 2018, 11:10:13 AM
Beautiful! Yes, chromatic aberration helps. However, I'd love to see the scene with Ulco's method. By the way, Ulco, what do you mean by shifting the suns by 0.7. What did you shift?
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Dune on August 11, 2018, 11:23:54 AM
Their position, say sun 1 is blue and at 30, the sun 2 (green) would be at 30.7, etc
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Hannes on August 11, 2018, 11:26:52 AM
Just the heading, or the elevation as well?
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: WAS on August 11, 2018, 12:56:39 PM
Quote from: René on August 11, 2018, 04:56:29 AM
Quote from: WASasquatch on August 10, 2018, 12:49:16 PM
Though there are shadows in caustics. Technically it's what makes the caustics. We just see the light as the "active bits" rather than noting the shadows.

Okay, I'm not an expert in this area  :) although I did some reading on this subject. If it would help to create caustics I would dive into this matter but if it is simply not possible then all knowledge of the world will not help. :-\
How would you explain caustics on the bottom of a boat? Reflections?

I don't want to get into a argument. It's why we call them caustics, instead of just refraction (like a kaleidoscopes refractions), because they involve refraction and shadow of objects. The transparency and refraction effect the basic shadow as well. Ocean floor caustics includes shadows when light is refracted away, shifted and concentrated with other light. This creates shadows... The light itself is refraction. The combination of the two is caustics.

This is also why the shadow on a boat includes different depths as well as focused highlights of refraction from redirecting light. You'd imagine at a distance your focused highlights are actually going to be pretty drowned out and you're mainly getting shadow forms. For example, you mentioned 150m? You won't see any focused highlights, and the filtered colours will be non-existent. Mainly just shadows.  In fact, in most the ocean; darkout.

Without actual refraction from the reflective surface shadows and lighting highlights is the only way to fake it. Wouldn't be realistic with ocean surface lot like the day with refraction highlights
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: sboerner on August 11, 2018, 01:50:48 PM
Fascinating discussion! Following with great interest. And beautiful images, René (and Ulco). The whole conversation about caustics makes me wonder whether Planetside has any long-term plans for a physically based rendering system. Might that render it (pun intended) unnecessary to fake these sorts of optical effects?
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Oshyan on August 11, 2018, 09:49:46 PM
I *think* you may be able to use two Suns, one with shadows for Surfaces (soft shadows enabled), and the other with shadows for atmo (soft shadows disabled).

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Dune on August 12, 2018, 01:43:49 AM
I used just position, not elevation, Hannes, but it doesn't really matter, as long as there's a bit of difference between the locations.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: Hannes on August 12, 2018, 01:53:52 AM
Thanks, Ulco. And yes, fascinating discussion!
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on August 12, 2018, 06:46:03 AM
Quote from: Oshyan on August 11, 2018, 09:49:46 PM
I *think* you may be able to use two Suns, one with shadows for Surfaces (soft shadows enabled), and the other with shadows for atmo (soft shadows disabled).

- Oshyan

It works, kind of. I get a bit of both, but then I lose quality in other places. Maybe I am looking for something that is not possible in the real world; can soft shadows and caustics exist together at all?
Thanks anyway.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: René on August 12, 2018, 06:50:53 AM
Quote from: WASasquatch on August 11, 2018, 12:56:39 PM
Quote from: René on August 11, 2018, 04:56:29 AM
Quote from: WASasquatch on August 10, 2018, 12:49:16 PM
Though there are shadows in caustics. Technically it's what makes the caustics. We just see the light as the "active bits" rather than noting the shadows.

Okay, I'm not an expert in this area  :) although I did some reading on this subject. If it would help to create caustics I would dive into this matter but if it is simply not possible then all knowledge of the world will not help. :-\
How would you explain caustics on the bottom of a boat? Reflections?

I don't want to get into a argument. It's why we call them caustics, instead of just refraction (like a kaleidoscopes refractions), because they involve refraction and shadow of objects. The transparency and refraction effect the basic shadow as well. Ocean floor caustics includes shadows when light is refracted away, shifted and concentrated with other light. This creates shadows... The light itself is refraction. The combination of the two is caustics.

This is also why the shadow on a boat includes different depths as well as focused highlights of refraction from redirecting light. You'd imagine at a distance your focused highlights are actually going to be pretty drowned out and you're mainly getting shadow forms. For example, you mentioned 150m? You won't see any focused highlights, and the filtered colours will be non-existent. Mainly just shadows.  In fact, in most the ocean; darkout.

Without actual refraction from the reflective surface shadows and lighting highlights is the only way to fake it. Wouldn't be realistic with ocean surface lot like the day with refraction highlights

Thank you for your elaborate explanation. There is a lot more to it than I expected.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: DocCharly65 on August 13, 2018, 02:21:16 AM
Quote from: René on August 11, 2018, 07:18:03 AM
New

I like this very much! And as I see you have solved the problem with overlapping population-instances.
Absolutely marvelous!
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: WAS on September 01, 2018, 10:48:20 PM
You know I was watching Finding Nemo today and realized their caustics Re just shadows. I than went online and tried to research underwater cameras, and it seems this chromatic effect is just the result of pressurized cameras inside a box viewing through tempered glass. This isn't found in high-end imagining like 8k sports cameras and stuff from National Geographic and Discovery. Leads me to think this is just the quality/condition (surface wscratches wear) on tempered glass often reused even if camera is removed. 

Low contrast darker scenes with bright suddemtransitions creating optical illusions. Even at the pool here at the hotel we're staying at the reflections are just yellow-y sun highlights to the naked eye.

Edit: Finding Dory (Finding Nemo sequel) was on Free Form tonight, and throughout it, the only scene I noticed refracted caustics was the touch tide pool (where kids can touch sea critters) where they showed the water full of lifted silt and sand from kids stirring it up, there they had multiple colours in the refractions, but not in the rest of the movie from what I noticed. Especially in the ocean showing any sort of depth.
Title: Re: Underwater scene
Post by: cocateho26 on September 02, 2018, 10:58:54 PM
I've never been a huge fan of most underwater TG renders, but these are really good and very convincing.