Planetside Software Forums

Dear friends.

To all of you "foreigners" who I have had internet contact with over the last 5 years. I want to say that I am sorry. Because I am an American and you are not. It seems that as a result of our contact you have been spied on, by the people claiming to be my government.

And to those of us who have expressed disquiet, and especially you who have expressed anti american government sentiments over the years, I am very very sorry.
Please take comfort in the knowledge, as I do, that death by drone missile is probably rather quick and painless.

Now I do not want to impose on anyone any religion. But because I believe that death (at least physical) by drone strike is probably a permanent condition, I want to encourage you all to contemplate the Truth. And all of the truly great questions in life, while you still can.

Also, to those of you who like to look at porn on your computers, especially the weird stuff. Its probably too late to erase your hard drives, but for Grandma's sake, try.
Hacked video from your webcams, of you playing with your selves will hurt her more than when they call you a terrorist on the nightly news... Old people are like that.

Never forget that all of this was for our own good. And that we asked for it. Because its the governments job to protect us, not ours.

And always remember that it was a leftist who did this to you. Also, remember that I told you so.

Good bye, and good luck.

LOL, I simply surprised it has taken so long.

PRISM has been about for years and evolved from something else (cobra? I forget). It would naive for anyone to expect their government or any other capable government to NOT snoop on their emails, phone calls and web usage given the chance. In fact the various security services would not be doing their job if this did not happen (not to imply that I approve). I guess the only thing that has really changed in recent years is the ability to do massive data mining exercises (for which you need massive amounts of data). Azimov was right!.

The answer is simple if you want it secret keep it off the web. Or converse in code .... "The bullfrogs have come early this year"

It's quite amusing watching the politicians, our defenders of freedom etc squirming however ...

Richard

addendum
Re:
"Also, to those of you who like to look at porn on your computers, especially the weird stuff. Its probably too late to erase your hard drives, but for Grandma's sake, try.
Hacked video from your webcams, of you playing with your selves will hurt her more than when they call you a terrorist on the nightly news... Old people are like that."

Should read
...especially the weird stuff, But really, if you think about it, is there anything better than two girls, a giraffe, petroleum jelly, and a pogo stick?..

That is all.

Quote from: cyphyr on June 07, 2013, 03:38:02 PM

PRISM has been about for years and evolved from something else (cobra? I forget).

Maybe you're thinking of ECHELON??

Oh, but it will not last. Rome eventually fell but now we have even a better opportunity here. Technology allows Government to be exposed for what they really are. Nothing can be kept secret anymore, even the Main Stream Media is beginning to see this, finally. More questions are being raised now. Even the Obama administration is under the spot light. Alternatives are being sought. Agorism is being known as a traveled word along the internet. The Statists who still support the system will be lost and left behind while the Liberty-lovers and Anarchists will continue to be recognized. There are no parties, there are just free human beings and there is the Tyranny of the State. Ask yourself do you want to be a free and independent human being living a non-aggressive life style voluntarily associating with your fellow man without force, fraud and coercion or are you going to be a blind wage-slave relying on the Government to protect you, steel someone else's money to give you, give you Health Care, bomb other nations and claim it is to keep us safe, take your Children away from you, force you to eat there GMO Foods and take there Big-Pharma Drugs. What will it be?

[attachimg=1]

Jefferson was a president too. What do you think he would say about all of this?

Dont forget that Obama ordered the murder of a 15 year old boy, an American citizen. And he was not asked even one question about it by the press.

I want to know who advised him, and I want them all impeached and thrown in prison. We will see them squirm then. I'll even give you bush if it makes you feel better.

Richard. What you said about it being their job is exactly the opposite by American law. Their first duty is to protect the Constitution, not life. The Constitution protects life. They have betrayed us all.

From the time I was little I listened to my grandfather scream in his sleep. He screamed until the day he died. All of my uncles are named for dead men. Men my Grandfather watched die.
They did not fight for my safety. No man is safe. Ever.
They fought for my liberty.

And Obama has betrayed them as well.

To hell with the king and all of his Jesters.

Quote from: TheBadger on June 08, 2013, 01:36:53 AM
Jefferson was a president too. What do you think he would say about all of this?

Sorry but you'll have to explain that one and the edited Louis XVI image ... over my English head. ::) Which is at least still attached ... is that the message?

Quote from: TheBadger on June 08, 2013, 01:36:53 AM
Dont forget that Obama ordered the murder of a 15 year old boy, an American citizen. And he was not asked even one question about it by the press.

This ?? LINK (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/10/how-team-obama-justifies-the-killing-of-a-16-year-old-american/264028/)  Shameful and disgusting.

I don't pretend to understand American law and we don't have any real equivalent to your constitution. (Common Law stands for little)
But my point still stands, what do we actually think security services (anybody's) with their vast budgets and access to the latest technology are actually going to do? Of course they're going to spy on us, their own citizenry, other governments and agencies, each other and their own citizens again. Maybe I'm just used to it here in the UK. We have the highest (by quite a large margin) level of CCVT surveillance per capita globally and who's it pointing at? That's right, us. It's watching us to protect us and we're told that we're quite happy about it. :o ::) :o

I agree with you about life versus liberty.
Morally liberty wins out every time since life with it is worthless and liberty without life is pointless.
However it's easy to get a population fearful enough to sacrifice their liberties for a perception of protected life.

Quote from: masonspappy on June 07, 2013, 08:47:39 PM
Maybe you're thinking of ECHELON??

I was indeed, I knew it was some pretentious sounding name lol  thankyou.

"Spring has arrived late in the mountains this year"

Richard

QuoteSorry but you'll have to explain that one and the edited Louis XVI image ... over my English head.  Which is at least still attached ... is that the message?

Simply that he's claimed the power of a King. The president of the united states does not have the authority under law to kill citizens without trial. Not even traitors. The only time such an act is permissible is if the citizen is a clear threat to others.
For example, while robbing a bank, and when the police have announced their presence the robber refuses to surrender. Or, if a man is running down the street with a rifle shooting people... Things like this, where killing the citizen saves lives immediately. Or when martial law is declared.
I suppose there are some grey areas. But clearly the boy dose not fit into a grey area. And in any case, he can not use the military to kill citizens.

Many crimes have been committed. And the fog of war is not going to fly for me anymore as an excuse.

To tell you the truth I thought that was an image of king George of England. Does not mater though... One tyrant for another.

QuoteThis ?? LINK  Shameful and disgusting

Yes thats the story. Although I am not familiar with that news group. And I did not read the copy. But the boy in the video is the one I was talking about.
He was murdered by drone while eating in a restaurant with friends and family. He was 15 years old. The son of a known traitor and terrorist. But the boy him self had no connection to any terrorist acts, and was not standing next to his dad when killed.
Even if he was in agreement with his father, he should not have been targeted. He should have been captured and deprogramed. As the son of an abuser. An abuse victim.

The only response the administration has given is the one in that video. "He should of had a more responsible father".

Pardon me now, but... Fuck you Robert Gibbs you son of a bitch. If theres a hell it was made for men like you. Burn.

cyphyr, the rest of what you said is only an acceptance of what goes on in your country based on your perception that such Behavior is inevitable. I agree such Behavior is inevitable, where it is allowed. But here in the US, as a simple mater of fact, all of this we are taking about is illegal in american law. All of it. It is all fundamentally unconstitutional.

By doing what you suggest and I agree was inevitable, murdering, spying, covering up. Directing government agencies to persecute political dissenters. Obama made him self King, or dictator if you prefer. Surly there can be no semantics argument about tyrant?

If there is any honest men left in my Government. Obama will be impeached and imprisoned. After a trial, of course.

Correction;
The President never has the power to kill a citizen without trial. Only a court of law can order a man put to death. And only after a trial where the accused is allowed to face his accuser. And when a jury of his peers find him guilty.

The boy does not fit any exception to this, that I have ever heard.

* oh yeah. I for got to answer your other question.

There is no doubt whatsoever. Jefferson would have viewed whats going on now as an abomination. I have no doubt that he would have called for violent action to end it.

I do not however call for yet more violence, my self just to be clear. Not yet.
I still have a little faith in Truth and Justice. And that people in power will deal with all of this rightly.

Quote from: TheBadger on June 07, 2013, 03:15:15 PM
Dear friends.

To all of you "foreigners" who I have had internet contact with over the last 5 years. I want to say that I am sorry. Because I am an American and you are not. It seems that as a result of our contact you have been spied on, by the people claiming to be my government.

And to those of us who have expressed disquiet, and especially you who have expressed anti american government sentiments over the years, I am very very sorry.
Please take comfort in the knowledge, as I do, that death by drone missile is probably rather quick and painless.

Now I do not want to impose on anyone any religion. But because I believe that death (at least physical) by drone strike is probably a permanent condition, I want to encourage you all to contemplate the Truth. And all of the truly great questions in life, while you still can.

Also, to those of you who like to look at porn on your computers, especially the weird stuff. Its probably too late to erase your hard drives, but for Grandma's sake, try.
Hacked video from your webcams, of you playing with your selves will hurt her more than when they call you a terrorist on the nightly news... Old people are like that.

Never forget that all of this was for our own good. And that we asked for it. Because its the governments job to protect us, not ours.

And always remember that it was a leftist who did this to you. Also, remember that I told you so.

Good bye, and good luck.

Apology accepted. Actually, that is very kind if you!

I found it funny when the government explained that the data will only be used against non US people... Yeah, sure....

Well, I don't know about you, but the Prism story did not surprise me at all. Actually, I am using my email, facebook, my iphone, skype  etc under the assumption that somewhere, all my activity is being logged or recorded.
As sad as this might be, it is inevitable. Inevitable because ANY government will want to protect the well being and the integrity of their vital infrastructure, at the very least. And because most serious threats nowadays and at least planned, if not carried out, electronically, it seems logical to me that a proactive scanning of electronic activity can help prevent all sorts of attacks in the first place.

Still, it feels wrong, I think most people would agree. But still, it's not going to go away.

Cheers frank.

But I don't except it. And American law does not allow it. I cannot entertain rationalisations for murder. Or violating the security of my person. The US has literally suffered the deaths of millions of men since our founding, on these issues.

But I can understand why you Europeans are less offended (seemingly so). Our ways of life are rather more different than they look I think.
Certainly our cultures and history are different.

But to tell you the truth, I thought Europe was much ahead of the US on internet rights to privacy. I guess not?

I'm kind of with Frank here, although data should be anonymised first, which of course never will happen, because that would beat its purpose. Why anonymising data?
I can perfectly imagine analyses where clever algorithms, which analyse on subjective parameters!, go through the heap of data and starting to connect dots about your life.
Consequently I wouldn't be surprised to see people being arrested for things they haven't done yet, but they will say that their data-mining programm indicated that there was a greater than x percentage chance he's involved in terrorism or whatever other crime.

I just think that's plain wrong.

Furthermore, and this is where I differ from Frank I'm pretty sure, is that I think that PRISM and Corporations is a kind of collaboration.
Governments want information and control and obtain that from corporations. In turn corporations get good deals on taxes and other types of legislation whatever.

Behind the curtain/backdoor decisions like these are likely made on Bilderberg like meetings (80% corporate, 10% politic, 10% think-tank) which happens to be taking place this very weekend in Watford.
On the public agenda this year is "populism", internet demonstration/mobilisation, syria and turkey.

So in relation to PRISM, corporations and governments...how much of coincidence is this? Is it a positive development?

QuoteIs it a positive development?

Which part? I don't know what you mean...

My understanding of the story thus far, what the stories are suggesting is... That the corporations (apple, mirosoft, ISPs, more than I can name) were not left with too much of a choice.

But let me throw a stick in your guys wheels. Do you really think that this stuff is not going to be used against you? Why? because your not important enough?

THis is not going to go well for anyone. Because in the end, they dont care about what dirty movies people watch. They care how people vote. And if you got something to loose and your not voting the way you should. Watch out guys. Or have you not heard about the IRS stuff, or the AP stuff?

Everything in human history. And I mean everything. Tells us this is going to be real bad.

Of course this is going to be used against us all, that's exactly what I meant with my description of an algorithm wich analyses all the mined data to connect dots about every person. What do they buy, how much, where, where do they work, travel, eat, who do they meet, how many times, where and what about the people he meets etc. etc. etc.
Everybody's being profiled and like I said the parameters are subjective, because an algorithm can't decide who's a terrorist or not. So in the end the power lays in a handful of people.

Oh  :-\. well ok. Thank you for clarifying.

Just one more question to you all then.

HOW THE HELL CAN YOU BE SO CALM! IM FREAKING OUT.

Everyday it just gets worse and worse. More and more terrible things are being reported in the news. It seems like its really coming apart. I mean the ideas of just and morally upright government.

I never had doubts that its a shady thing, the government. But I always believed the good outmatched the evil. Now it seems that its split in half, or worse.

If there is any good in this it can only be that we are being warned. But who is listening. And can the American people see through the spin to vote these people out? On that I have so little faith.

Im really sad now guys. Im going to go drink my self into a coma.

I might be a little nihilistic here, but it seems that "laws" are made for the people to adhere to, not for governments.
I don't think think any sort of secret operation would have to adhere to any laws, in practice.

Quote from: TheBadger on June 08, 2013, 07:16:05 AM

...

HOW THE HELL CAN YOU BE SO CALM! IM FREAKING OUT.[/size]

...

Yes, and then?

Inside I'm as freaked out as you are, bet I am.
Also I realise there's extremely little you can do about these secretive things. Hence, secretive.
This has happened for who knows how long and there was nothing we knew about or can do about it.

Now that it's out in the open about PRISM, Facebook et al. tumble over each other to be the first to say they know nothing. Sure.

I've said it many times before in many places. Democracy, freedom, whatever you all want to call it....it doesn't exist these days.

Corporatism FTW and an EPIC win they are making.

The only way it will end is with a global financial catastrophy, causing deep recession and increasing poverty which will piss people extremely off. *1
Then they will realize that one of the foundations of capitalism, which is that only governments have the monopoly on violence, is bullshit and used as an instrument to control us.

The only way the people can win this is by force and especially people from western countries are raised and imprinted/indoctrinated with these capitalistic foundation that only governments can play for judge and executioner through violence.

It's for a reason these principles aren't really working in Turkey now and also in Egypt and Libia before.
Capitalism didn't have such a solid foundation there in people's minds and thus people have much little trouble with getting what they want through demonstration and violence against their government. **2

*1: the current crisis is kept alive by the FED, which keeps on flooding the world with non-existing dollars, and the ECB which lends money almost without interest.
This is devaluating all economies world-wide causing extreme budget cuts and increases in expenditures for normal people. Already lots of people in the USA live below the poverty line as we say here and also here in The Netherlands people get poorer and poorer because of this.
People feel highly demotivated and beaten senseless by the seemingly never-ending crisis.
But corporations and governments have the solution of course. Just hand over everything about your life to the corporate government and all will be fine.

Many refer to this as the New World Order, which unfortunately is being used too many that it's losing its value and seriousness, but eventually it will go this direction.

**2: There's also democracy of course which makes this even more complex. Democracy and capitalism in its current form are like how the bible and quran call interest the purest evil.

PRISM and all the other things we see are products of corruption.

Turns out Im not a drinker. Guess Ill have to face the end of the world like everyone else... Curled up in the fetal position waiting for "them" to come and kill me.



[attachimg=1]


In all seriousness, Im really very saddened and ashamed of all this. Its disgusting stuff. It looks like the paranoids and the fanatics were all correct. Again.

Yep, the one thing I have learned about conspiracy theories is the more ridiculous it sounds the less likely we are to believe it (obviously). Just think what that lil bit o psychology lets some people get away with.

Your not making me feel better Richard  :P

Im starting to get the feeling that you guys are used to this sort of thing... Disappointment, abuse, heartbreak? Not sure really what words to use. All I can come up with is curse words. And Im sure planetside does not appreciate that too much.

Lots of cursing going on here.  :-\

Cant stand these A&*^ H*(&^ media people who are defending this crap. Im really getting filled with anger. I need to figure out a way to chill before I get a hernia or something  :o

Looking forward to monday when the news is back in full swing. I am hoping by the end of the weekend there will be some real information. But most importantly the congress will have had time to pick sides. I want to see who is going to forcefully come out against this. I want to hear the word impeach. And I want to hear it from someone who is not a "wing-nut".

It's good that we aren't here anymore in 100 years (or less)  ;)

Oh good, according to William Hague (current UK Foreign Secretary and First Secretary of State):

"Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from UK intelligence gathering"

and

"It is fanciful to think GCHQ is trying to circumvent UK Law in its intelligence gathering"

Glad that's cleared up then, I feel so much better.

Just the other day I was looking at all the data that google collects. I had over 30k searches made since 2009 and I could view all of em individually.. I bet there is a lot more data in other services I use too.. One who has access to this can just sort all of the data and then build a pretty detailed profile about people..Google says it uses this to enhance searches and customize advertising..yeah sure I bet they do that and a lot more too :P I too have always assumed this kind of thing is happening.

Interesting, where did you find this data?

QuoteJust the other day I was looking at all the data that google collects. I had over 30k searches made since 2009 and I could view all of em individually

How did you do that?

Ah found it.
Did search (ironically) for "google search history" the top result is My Search History. Probably only works if you have a Google account.
Seems you can search your own history and delete things (just removed all links to petroleum jelly etc)

Of all the news here, what surprise me most is the apparently widespread (ab)use of petroleum jelly by otherwise generally respected forum members!  ;)

I don't want to know more. Please!

:o

lol  ;D That is too funny!

Guys. What does it really mean that you are deleting your history on your google accounts? Did you find any place that google says to delete from your account is to delete from the earth? Or what? I have never heard of this. What do you think about it?

I have g-mail. Does that mean I have a google account? Whats the difference?

On PRISM,

Apparently there are multiple programs. And not all are as Orwellian as PRISM. Apparently PRISM does look at content of communications and data.

And you know none of this would concern me as much as it does. If not for the the long list of other abuses of power from the Obama administration. Obama said in a press brief the other day that, "IF the people don't trust me, and they don't trust the congress, and they don't trust the courts, well than, we are going to have a problem".

To wich I say stop killing kids with drones, stop using state agencies to persecute political dissenters. STOP LYING ABOUT EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME! Stop being a low down shady hypocrite lawyer/politician. Stop waisting trillions of dollars on ideas that even children can see are stupid.
Just stop being President. Go home. And be all the things that you are, where the rest of us don't have to look at you or listen to you. And take the congress and judiciary and bureaucracies with you. You can all go live in Detroit, and be one big F-uped dysfunctional family.
I say we should start over with all new people

"IF the people don't trust me, and they don't trust the congress, and they don't trust the courts, well than, we are going to have a problem".

Clearly we have a problem. And it is mostly your fault, Mr. President.
You said you were different. But really, your even worse.

Probably we should all just start using "Tor" for everything.

I would be EXCEEDINGLY surprised if deleting my search history (or any other variety) was anything approaching a real permanent deletion.
We've all lost data on old hard drives at one time or another and used a variety of disk scanners to recover supposedly deleted material, even if the histories were actually deleted (which I doubt) I'm sure the data would be recoverable.

If you have a Google email account then you have a full Google account however you may have to sign up for individual services though (so you get to tick the box that covers their asses) using your Googe login details. Check out their Google sites, very comprehensive service and FREE!

I don't think Obama is doing anything that any other president (or leader of any country) at any other time would have done given the resources. Its just that he has greater resources than ANY leader ever before. The odd thing is that we actually get to know something at all about it which is something that possibly less left leaning leaderships would not allow.

"IF the people don't trust me, and they don't trust the congress, and they don't trust the courts, well than, we are going to have a problem".

Err yesss, hmm, I'm starting to see your views on an armed population. Although if it ever came to it you can bet the Government will have better weapons than us.


Tor?

Quote from: cyphyr on June 10, 2013, 06:23:27 AM
I don't think Obama is doing anything that any other president (or leader of any country) at any other time would have done given the resources. Its just that he has greater resources than ANY leader ever before. The odd thing is that we actually get to know something at all about it which is something that possibly less left leaning leaderships would not allow.

Tor?

I think I can agree to this post 100%. Couldn't say it any better.

I am not trying to defend anyone according to my own political view, but I don't think Obama made it worse. This was a long way coming, starting with the patriot act, or maybe even earlier.

What the process in the US to reverse a law? Is there some court that opposition can call upon, which may review if a law is in line with the constitution or not, and thus potentially roll back a law that has passed congress earlier?

And TOR is an anonymizer for your web traffic. All traffic goes over the TOR network, so that a website will never know what the IP is that their packets are going to be sent to eventually... or where the request for packets actually came from. It's useless though for pages where you have to login, I think.

Regards
Frank

The "whistle blower" speaks: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/09/politics/nsa-leak-identity/index.html?sr=fbmainintl

QuoteThe odd thing is that we actually get to know something at all about it which is something that possibly less left leaning leaderships would not allow.

But thats not true, Richard. The Obama administration has more vigorously prosecuted leakers and whistleblowers than any other president in American history. Obama has brought more criminal charges than all other presidents combined.

QuoteThe odd thing is that we actually get to know something at all about it

He is being betrayed.
There is a non violent revolt in progress within the intelligence and military. His administration has thrown people in the field, under the bus for political reasons so many times that he is personally widely hated. Everything that is happening is so unprecedented (as far as I can tell) in American History, that these events are just unbelievable. For active duty military and intelligence officers to speak out as they are, directly agains a sitting president, its frankly scary.
For an example, active duty Navy SEALS have called Obama and his administration liars. Its absolutely fascinating.
These are people who have dedicated their lives to the "chain of command" To obedience and discipline. For them to step out of line, and speak out of turn, is very interesting.

QuoteI'm starting to see your views on an armed population. Although if it ever came to it you can bet the Government will have better weapons than us.

If it ever really came to that it would completely break my heart. I cannot imagine a worse conclusion.
But for conversations sake, lets pretend it will come to that.
Who is Going to do the fighting? THe idea that the marines are going to come into my neighborhood and kill me and my neighbors is hard to comprehend. They are like me, from neighborhoods just like mine.

But I have personally witnessed police officers break the law. And do things like lie, and steal. We have all seen police beat the hell out of people. And we all have seen them do murder, via news and youtube video.
THe police and the militarization of Law enforcement is what scares me.

I do not break the law or do anything to take or hurt other people. And yet whenever I have to talk to a cop, I worry about my safety and freedom. And for damn good reason too.

We cannot fight the military. No one can stand up against them. Even when they loose they win... If its a question of body counts.

But cops are not solders. Cops only follow orders. They are drones mostly. I do not intend to disrespect all Police and law enforcement. I know most are hard working and dependable honest people.
But all you have to do is turn on the news to see which arm of government is committing acts of violence against free people. When The governments of the west use force against their own people in the modern world. Do you see them using Solders or Cops?
This is a hypothetical conversation, just to be clear.

Tor: https://www.torproject.org
Make sure you understand it before you use it.
You can use it on the surface net like you are on now, but be carful what you get involved with on the "darknet". I promise you, you will see things there that you cannot un-see.

And just to be absolutely clear. Make sure you understand how it works before you use it. Read through the entire site use wikipedia to find subjects to research properly. Wiki is at least good at providing correct terms. I distrust everything else.. I still use it too though.

And then Sir Richard, to you I say welcome to the war of the mind.  ;D ;) Hope you do better than I have.

@Frank
Thanks Frank, Ill look at that now.

QuoteThe "whistle blower" speaks: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/09/politics/nsa-leak-identity/index.html?sr=fbmainintl

If what the man in that video is saying is true, he is a hero.
I hope someone will protect him.
Its politically earth shattering! If all true! But who can be sure of anything when Intelligence becomes politics?

I tell you this though, and Ill bet im right. The occupy movement never had a chance, it was BS, and the people doing it were silly. But PRISM stuff has a real chance of starting a revolt, both violent and non violent. Obama is the worst manager I have ever seen in my life.

QuoteBut thats not true, Richard. The Obama administration has more vigorously prosecuted leakers and whistle blowers than any other president in American history. Obama has brought more criminal charges than all other presidents combined.

I think that's just a sign of the times. Difficult to correlate but there's more interconnectivity, more information so more gets leaked out. More information is leaked because there is more information in the first place, greater technological ability and method, and more people in a position to do it. Nixon was famously doing it and only famous because he got caught. Both our governments routinely lie to us and have done since gord knows how long, remember the radiation tests, the bio weapon tests beck in the 50's and 60's. Our governments have both recently come out and admitted that it happened, that they experimented on our own troupes and citizenry. Of course that sort of thing couldn't happen now ... yeah right!

Maybe your surprise and shock is because you are told you come from "The Land of the Free", that you have a constitution, a "Bill of Rights", "Deceleration of Independence" etc. Pardon my ignorance here and I don't mean to be rude but I hope you'll get my point. These pieces of paper have served successive administrations to provide the illusion (and a very palpable one at that) of freedom. We in the UK and I think in many parts of Europe do not have these (France may be an exception). I am a "Subject of Her Britannic Majesty", not a citizen, I have obligations, not rights and this is instilled from birth. So from my perspective all governments and administrations are my overlord. I can winge and complain about as much as I like but it makes no difference, I was never told I was free.

QuoteIf it ever really came to that it would completely break my heart. I cannot imagine a worse conclusion.

Agree completely.

I cannot argue with what your saying now. Only haggle over the finer points. I think you are right/correct. But I think it is in the finer points that we will get to the bottom of it.

QuoteNixon was famously doing it and only famous because he got caught

But Nixon did not kill American citizens. Obama has killed, or caused the killing of several.
Watergate did not end in a gunfight that left children dead. He did not use the IRS to terrify privet citizens. (Hard to imagine that the IRS needs any help.)

In the end, Nixon was a strange man who made bad choices. And those choices destroyed his Presidency.
Obama's choices have killed his own people, destroyed the economic future of millions, and virtually guaranteed that this generation will not prosper as all other generations before us. Ours is the first generation in American history to do less well than the generation that proceeded. And Obama-care is a total disaster. Many will die and be hurled into deeper poverty because of it.

Some will say it was bad before Obama, and would be bad without him. Yes, thats true. But now it is even worse! And yes I know that there are many more people to share responsibility. But Obama is in charge, he is also the leader of his party. Nothing gets done without the President.

QuoteMaybe your surprise and shock is because you are told you come from "The Land of the Free", that you have a constitution, a "Bill of Rights", "Deceleration of Independence" etc. Pardon my ignorance here and I don't mean to be rude but I hope you'll get my point. These pieces of paper have served successive administrations to provide the illusion (and a very palpable one at that) of freedom. We in the UK and I think in many parts of Europe do not have these (France may be an exception). I am a "Subject of Her Britannic Majesty", not a citizen, I have obligations, not rights and this is instilled from birth. So from my perspective all governments and administrations are my overlord. I can winge and complain about as much as I like but it makes no difference, I was never told I was free.

I am not naive (just a bad writer). I know about those things you mention, enough of it anyway. And I know about even worse things my government has done in the past.

But here is the point then.
All of those things were illegal under the constitution. Though laws were written to say that the Government had power and right to do as they wish, under the constitution those laws are invalid.
Under the constitution murder is murder, no mater the political justification.

So then according to what you wrote. While you have no legal recourse against crimes committed against your people, by your government because you are the property of the state. The constitution guarantees the American people the legal framework to take our leaders by the hair and drag them to the electric chair, or just prison maybe... After a trial of course.
Because we ARE free, regardless if our Government agrees or not. This is the 2nd amendment, the right to keep and bear arms. For this purpose we have the right to have weapons. And not the kind you use for sport, but the kind you use to kill men. Many men.

So thats the real difference. The constitution makes revolution legal. And gives us an orderly way to revolt, and to do justice to our government. It assures that the government can never ask, "by what right do the people rise up?". And then use that question to suppress us.
We have all seen this in the 3rd world, where a government is overthrown only to return because the people had no grounds to throw them down. Then we watch as the returned powers punish the people who revolted.

The constitution guarantees among honest men, that the people are free, and have all authority.
That men are dishonest is why all of the things we are talking about are done in secret. Nixon knew what he was doing was wrong, that is why he hid it.
Obama knows likewise, that is why he is prosecuting whistleblowers. He is protecting himself, not us.

The American people have endured a lot, for a long time! We have trusted and we have waited. But now I wonder if patience has run out? I am curious to see if everyone is as angry as I feel about PRISIM and all the other stuff we have been talking about.


About what you said of England.
That was the most interesting part of what you wrote, to me. I have never heard a Brit put it so bluntly before (we are all protective of our countries, and we should be) But I really appreciate what you said. I think you are speaking the truth. And I am trying to do the same.

But to tell you the truth I did not know what you said. I thought that the Magna Carta gave you similar protections as the constitution? I know that the constitution is in part inspired and informed by the Magna Carta.

Not to long ago, american children were required to study English and French history. Because of our unique relationship; War of independence, louisiana purchase, the country of haiti, world wars, and so on. But not anymore. I only know what I do know because Im curious on my own.
To steal from Steven King, "we have forgotten the faces of our fathers", here

QuoteI am not trying to defend anyone according to my own political view, but I don't think Obama made it worse. This was a long way coming, starting with the patriot act, or maybe even earlier.

PRISM began in the last year of the Bush Presidency. It was the Obama administration who fully implemented it. Bush did a lot wrong too. But as I eluded to, they can all share a cell together. We can pack em' in like clowns in a telephone booth if you want.

personally though, I think what Bush did was heavily influenced by breathing in the stink of the world trade center rubble. I think Obama has other reasons. But I wont defend bush or anyone else. I want liberty not just a political battering ram.

QuoteWhat the process in the US to reverse a law? Is there some court that opposition can call upon, which may review if a law is in line with the constitution or not, and thus potentially roll back a law that has passed congress earlier?

Yes many. But only if we know about it. No one can sue, or go to the supreme court if no one knows they have been abused.

QuoteIt's useless though for pages where you have to login, I think

Only if you are logging in under you real identity. There are ways to use it with script and cookies, and to download (not just view) data. You need to use Tor in a "sandbox". It is complex and I am no authority. That is why I said to be carful and research before you use it.  People need to be very carful when using it. If you unmask your self, or expose data locations you can cause trouble for volunteers in the network.

There are also versions of Tor that are more secure than the main system: https://tails.boum.org but there are things you have to know about it to use that correctly too. There are less people using tails, so less people to hide amongst.

In the end it hides you amongst millions of others. You are not invisible, but you cannot be distinguished. Unless you use the soft incorrectly and unmask your self. But even then, it is difficult to track you. If you are unmasked they have to be looking for you anyway.

It is fascinating stuff. I don't have any criminal interests, but I still like learning about Tor. The DarkNet is like the Matrix only with bad VFX, and no robots.

Quote from: cyphyr on June 10, 2013, 09:13:51 AM

Maybe your surprise and shock is because you are told you come from "The Land of the Free", that you have a constitution, a "Bill of Rights", "Deceleration of Independence" etc. Pardon my ignorance here and I don't mean to be rude but I hope you'll get my point. These pieces of paper have served successive administrations to provide the illusion (and a very palpable one at that) of freedom. We in the UK and I think in many parts of Europe do not have these (France may be an exception). I am a "Subject of Her Britannic Majesty", not a citizen, I have obligations, not rights and this is instilled from birth. So from my perspective all governments and administrations are my overlord. I can winge and complain about as much as I like but it makes no difference, I was never told I was free.

We do have a Bill Of Rights. It has some odd stuff like being pro protestant but it is still in fact law.

The problem is that people just bow down to everything. This ensures the Stasi state is just around the corner.

In the UK people do things like buy newspapers and pay for a TV licence to be fed a pack of lies. The TV licence thing is simply incredible. I've never paid a TV licernce in my life. There is not even a law that says you have to.

I saw Alex Jones on UK TV ranting his stuff about Bilberberg but what he was saying was true. The utter idiots on the show were laughing at him. They seem to believe this is somehow effective and that absolutely nobody will actually think that maybe Alex Jones is right. Why the hell people pay money to support this media is beyond me. UK Column is a British newspaper which has facts. Tiny operation though since a majority of the population are too brain dead to even save themselves. Having said that, I'm not even sure the UK is anywhere the worst.

I wondered when the "Freeman of the Land" stuff would come up. On cue, thankyou:)
Alex Jones, John Harris et al. I've met and spoken with John.
err yah.

Much as their ideas are laudable I still consider the freeman movement dangerous and irresponsible. The fact remains that NO case has ever been won by a Freeman under their interpretation of common law. Why? Because they are fighting their cases before judges who do not hold their ideas as valid. Irrespective of weather this is right or not the legal system as stands has the power to imprison us and to deny our freedoms. The guys with the bigger sticks always win. Get over it. Sorry to be blunt but I have seen friends try to stand up to the state believing that Common Law was on their side. The judge disagreed and they lost. They even tried to impeach the judge, their sentence was increased for contempt.

I completely agree with your stance on the media, it is utterly controlled and manipulated to the benefit of those in power. It is the tool that allows so called democracies to wield so much power by allowing them to say that they have the majority behind their views. Mob rule led by the gutter press. Views which have been propagated by the media owned by the politicians and those behind them. Fight them if you must but you will loose and probably painfully.

The very idea that "law" stands above "power" is ludicrous, laudable again and what a great idea if only it were true, but ludicrous nonetheless. It is a great ideal, something to aspire to but we are a very long way from.

I wish it were different but it's not. The only way I see to have freedom is to become the "grey man", effectively invisible, unimportant and uninteresting. Stay beneath their radar and live your life in a way that impacts them not at all.. By the way I've not paid for a TV licence in 10 plus years. But then I neither own or watch a TV, I really have better stuff to do.

:)

Sorry for my bluntness on this.

Common law is why all British Commonwealth countries and the US had freedoms that other counties didn't have. If you believe you can go along to get along without those protections and survive you need to think again. You will not be alive or if you are you will be so poor that it won't be worth living. The guys with the bigger sticks as you say want a world population of under one billion. This kind of genocide is always what Oligarchs do. No conspiracy theories about this, it's their agenda. People in the west have got used to having many freedoms and somehow think it can't all disappear. That there aren't psychopaths out there ready to murder billions of people.  Accept things such as licenses to do stuff and you'll find you'll need a licence to even have children in the end which I assure you will be one of things brought in down the road. What you say is exactly what the majority of people said in America before the war of independance. Some people wouldn't go along with the slavery. Fortunately enough to overthrow it which freed a large part of the world and not just America.

I don't believe that these people doing the freeman on the land have all the answers but they are certainly not dangerous and irresponsible. Responsibility is exactly what they trying to show. They are exposing how the law has become corrupted. I have respect for those people taking those risks. Most people have no idea how this operates. That's how the criminals in charge get away with it.

who are the "Freeman of the Land" and what do they want?

Richard.
I think I know what you mean by the "grey man". After thinking on it a while, I think the grey man is the guy that has to dig the graves, dump the bodies, and then takes a bullet in the back of the head.
The grey man is the first body that is found in a mass grave, because he was the last to die.

I thought too, that obscurity was safety for a long time. But PRISM proves otherwise.
No man is safe. Ever.

 Nicely (but harshly) put.
So what to do? We are plainly as a species incapable of peaceful coexistance. Cirtainly not with the pressure on resources and population we have today. Recent history (and not so recent) bares this out.
Some will always bully their way to a controling position and we will be back to where we started.
Bring down one tyrant and another replaces him ... Egypt and the Arab spring.
I mentioned the Russian revolution in another thread. The "true" communist ideals lasted about 8 weeks. Then a civil war was engineered by the white Tzarist Russians in league with western powers. The only timt British and American  solders have faught on Russian soil. They lost but the version of comunism left behind was just another tyranical system. Situation normal.
I dont know what the solution is, suggestions on a postcard to my bunker please ;

lol Your asking me? If I knew I would be to busy to post here. I was hoping you guys would tell me!

Actually, I was going to appeal to all of you Europeans and Brits for help.
This will sound grandiose, and over the top. But I really believe that PRISIM is proof of a terrible danger.

My government needs to explain its self. It needs to find a way to prove the rightness of what its doing without compromising security. Or if it cannot, it must compromise security for the sake of truth, and the preservation of liberty. 

Currently there is some uproar in Europe and England over PRISM. I ask you please to join in and raise your voices in anyway you can, in person and in every forum you visit. Facebook the hell out of this. Not unlike what was done to E-on! SCREAM AND RAVE! And spread the word however and wherever you can. Tell everyone you know that, there is a darkness descended on the bright and shining city. Tell them their cousins in America are under attack from with-in. Tell them we need some help!

There will soon be a meeting in Europe including the 27 nations of the Union. They will discuss PRSIM and other related subjects. Demand answers! Make them demand answers! And let the American people see that you are doing it, do it for us! Help wake my people up! We have grown fat and lazy and stupid. But our hearts are still the biggest in the world. If we can wake up, we will do what is right!

I hate terrorism, and I have no love for Islam, I support the fight against Islamic tyranny . But I would rather live like an Israeli under constant threat, than live securely like a Russian under Stalin. Whatever the truth is, PRISM and everything like it is to much power in the hands of too few men. There are too many secrets, and too few honest leaders. And no civilian oversight that we should trust, the leaker is proof of that.

Our enemies hate us. But their most powerful weapon against us is suicide. Think about that. Yet they have done to America what The Soviets could not. They have made us our own worst enemy.

Please stand up for us, so that we can stand up for you. Remember that we have stood up for you, as you know that we would again.
Appeal to your friends and Neighbors. Tell them to write to the corporations that likely participated in the spying. Tell them you do not forgive and you will not forget.
Tell them all that trust is dead. Now its time to show proof! And do not except promises of future actions, but demand action now.

Do these things and do not stop until we get what we want. Security and liberty, in the privacy of our papers and our persons.
Fight! Or die in your own hearts, and be ashamed in the sight of your children as every politician should be.

Its a brave new world! Not a new world order.

https://optin.stopwatching.us

Also...

I have been thinking on this too much. What if the prosecution of the leakers is only for the purpose of giving cover to the president, who in fact is the one leaking the truth on the security state?
No, what am I saying? THere is no indication whatsoever that Obama has such courage or devotion to the promises he made as a candidate. How silly of me. Would make a great plot for a spy novel though.

Hehe, too true:)

I thought most of Obama's so called broken promises were because the Congress voted against him. Sure it's his job to try to convince them otherwise but nonetheless ...

As far as solutions go, stop voting for one as that only keeps the fools in power. Voting is basically saying... Yes, we still need you Mr. Government to look after us lowly folk. Try and live a life that is less dependent upon Government. Try and or do support more localized services. Grow a garden with non-gmo seeds. Stop supporting War. Home School your Kids. Try to do alternative currencies. Own some Firearms as you have a natural right to protect life. This may seem like doomsday non-sense but is it? At least some of us can go more Minarchist. Steps toward Full Voluntarism. True, there will still be those who want power but i see the internet spreading the knowledge fast and easy, more will wake up and think about what is going on behind those curtains. Government will be held more accountable and can not hide like it used to. Things will change, may take decades perhaps but humans want to be free. It's in our hearts. Every one of us practice Anarchy daily in a free association of making choices without the use of force.

Going into Syria now. Im sure the remarkable timing is just coincidence (coward-in-ci-dence). I mean its only in the last few days that people there started dying by strange causes, right? I think its a mass epidemic of spontaneous human combustion or something. Not real sure since we are only first learning of problems in the middle east this week

So Im sure anyone who would suggest that syria is about to be used as a huge distraction is just a paranoid crazy person.

...

@ChrisC
I'm pretty sure the problem is not voting. A large portion of Americans do not vote. And an even larger portion are unfit to vote. People need to vote, and need to vote smartly. The reason I don't believe in democracy so much anymore is because people don't vote, or vote stupidly. Not voting hardly sounds like it will do anything but make it a cake walk for crazy people to win everything.

...

Im glad for one thing in all of this. And thats, that everyone on the left sees now that their candidates are no better than the right's. Now maybe we can all stop the bullshit and start running candidates with souls... Instead of all these gosh darn ghouls! *and that includes Mccain and whats his face... Man, he was so unimpressive I can't even remember his name right now.*(edit)
...

The people against the leaker are basically saying that he is a trader. That he working with or for China. If thats true than we have to go get him.
But even if it is true, that does not mean that what he leaked is untrue. I really hope that even if it turns out the whistle blower is a trader, that we do not forget that so also is our government.

Quote from: TheBadger on June 13, 2013, 08:26:08 PM

But even if it is true, that does not mean that what he leaked is untrue.

Seriously, as bad as it sounds, it's quite likely even worse than you think.

Which part do you mean, Cam? Or do you mean the whole thing in all details of its messed up glory?

The fact that we are even mucking about in Syria is just more imperialistic non-sense. After all, the state profits off of war and taxes pay of it.

True and less and less people are voting because they are starting to wake up and know that both major parties are more alike then not. There is nothing smart about voting, even a guy like Ron Paul would have never had a chance as there is too much corruption from within. The game is up and voting will only continue the corruption. The State needs to be rebelled against and fade away. However by not voting is a tiny part of it but need we encourage the health of the State by voting as they continue to rob us as daily wage slaves and paying for more wars.

Most of those officials are already crazy, they try the same thing over and over again and expect a different outcome, definition of insanity. The ''only thing'' that changes is the Government grows bigger and bigger.

I feel like you do Chris. I share all of your anger and sadness.  But now is most certainly not the time to revel in our troubles. We must fight, and that means vote.

The constitution is a two way street.

If the government is corrupt, it is our responsibility, by law. Since the only way a government can come to power or be thrown out legally, is by voting.

A revolt that was not first proceeded by the legal steps provided by the constitution; like a series of votes, followed by law suits, followed by the just or unjust judgment of the courts, and then the supreme court, would its self be immoral and illegal

Any attempt to do something outside of the legal frame work provided by the constitution, would fail. And that frame work begins and ends with voting. No action can be considered valid without first voting. And the thing about it is, if we would all just vote for the republic rather than our selves, than no further action would ever be necessary.

Every bad thing the government has done to us, we really did to our selves. Cant escape that fact.

As for syria. I think they need help. And its within our power to help. But Saddam killed way more iraqis than we did, and yet the only numbers counted are those that hurt America. If we go to help we will get pissed on for it. Besides, who the hell would we be helping? I cant tell, can you?

If voting made any difference they would make it illegal ...

An oldie but true nonetheless

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxsQ7jJJcEA

All I can say is that I infinitely agree with the people who question democracy in its current state.
It's completely disfuctional and is only meant to give us a false sense of being important or that we have some form of power.

The only kind of signal you can give is either not show up or make a blank vote.
The way I see it:
not voting = I don't believe in this system
blank voting = I don't believe in any of you on the list

"If we go to help we will get pissed on for it. "

We already get pissed on no matter what we do.  So if we're gonna get pissed on then I want something to show for it.

(http://www.tvtoymemories.com/sitebuilder/images/BIG_Vote_for_none_of_the_Above_campaign_button_movie_prop_Brewsters_Millions-205x205.jpg)

I suport adding a "none of the above/NO confidence" choice on every ballot. I think its good idea. And valid because it can be counted.
Perhaps if the candidates cannot reach 50percent between the two, than by law both must withdrawal. And new candidates must be selected? It could work with some effort.
put the question up, i'll vote for it. ;)

Not voting is stupid though. How are we supposed to know what you think, feel, and believe? Most people who do not vote are not doing so out of protest. Their not voting cause they don't give a shit: polling bears that out every term.

If after voting the government dose not conform. And then we go through the court process. Then we can revolt.
Really no idea why revolution sounds so good to people though? Its going to be a bloody mess. I sure as hell don't want it to happen.

I think the fastest way to do things is a nation wide tax strike. This would be painful too, but not as much as being shot.
Starve the beast!

A tax strike? Is that possible in the USA? Do you *actively* pay your taxes?

Because here in Europe, in The Netherlands at least, we pay our taxes completely automatic.
I earn X euros/month and pay Y euros of taxes (around 40-50%). At the end of each month my employer transfers X - Y to my bank account.
At the end of each fiscal year the tax man sees if we paid enough or not.

Such a thing is impossible here.

Not if you're self employed ...

Quote from: cyphyr on June 14, 2013, 06:25:57 PM
Not if you're self employed ...

Yes of course, but without knowing exact numbers that's probably 10-15% only I guesstimate...

About right, maybe a little more. The recession has pushed a lot of people into self employment, not out of choice but out of necessity.
It's a royal pain in the ass I can tell ya! Hate the forms :( >:(

I think your both obviously correct.

I can only speak about the US system though. Of all the things I don't know, Im sure I know nothing about tax law in the Netherlands or in England (Do you have a sense if they are as bad as here?).
Here the taxes are not taken automatically by the government, but are automatically (in most cases) taken or set aside by businesses and banks and then handed over to the IRS/treasury/other.

Perhaps T-U, a general Strike would be simpler? Where everyone just walks off the job for one day. The message could resonate quite well. The message just needs to be singular and unanimous: "WE DONT TRUST YOU". It could work too. Taxes for that day would stop;)

A tax strike would necessarily require the full support of the Business world. But think about it! If the whistleblower can steal the NSA's secrets and give them to us (or China, as the case may be) Couldn't someone steal Coke's recipe and sell it to pepsi? (or also China too)? I feel like the people who run pay roles have a vested interest in this subject just as everyone else does. No? Doesn't everyone everywhere need (not just want) to be secure in their papers and persons? Anyway, Im sure more people than just terrorists, don't want the US government looking at them.

Anyway, just an idea that sounds better to me than shooting. Because lets name our options here; 1) Violent revolution, 2) A strike, 3) not voting... What else have we got?

The thing about a general strike is, that the message must remain simple and pure. So that everyone can remain united. If we let them do to us what they did to the "tea party" and to the "occupy movement"...  Well Im sure you get the point.


President Obama will be in Ireland for the G8. I think he will also visit Europe too. Please give him a proper welcome.

You know, I would of thought I would be among the last people on earth to be discussing resisting/condemning my government in public like this... Look what Bush and Obama have done!

By the way Richard, I have heard that America has the largest prison system in the world. So Im sure we got room for the congress too.

I think we probably do have the largest prison system. Gotta keep the Victimless Crimes and Drug War going after all... One more option is to try and go Argorist possibly or for those with faith out there an act of God.

The Woz has some things to say about this as well.

http://youtu.be/xOWDwKLJAfo

Quote from: TheBadger on June 11, 2013, 04:08:35 PM
Richard.
I think I know what you mean by the "grey man". After thinking on it a while, I think the grey man is the guy that has to dig the graves, dump the bodies, and then takes a bullet in the back of the head.
The grey man is the first body that is found in a mass grave, because he was the last to die.

I thought too, that obscurity was safety for a long time. But PRISM proves otherwise.
No man is safe. Ever.

Totally agree with this.

I haven't read the rest of the thread (too busy in Blender) but people need to start doing what is right on small level, not what just gets you by.

Quote from: cyphyr on June 14, 2013, 05:39:00 AM
If voting made any difference they would make it illegal ...

An oldie but true nonetheless

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxsQ7jJJcEA

If this is the case then people need to vote in such a way so that it becomes obvious to everyone that voting is useless. They don't do this because they vote for the usual supplied puppets and maintain the democratic illusion.

Quote from: TheBadger on June 10, 2013, 11:41:28 AM
So thats the real difference. The constitution makes revolution legal. And gives us an orderly way to revolt, and to do justice to our government. It assures that the government can never ask, "by what right do the people rise up?". And then use that question to suppress us.

This is why I mentioned Britain's Bill Of Rights. It also gives the people this power. Of course these laws are long forgotten just as they hope to achieve in the US with the constitution. Most of our older laws are problematic in some ways but the US constitution is based on similar principles.

In Britain we are subjects of the Queen (or at least used to be). However, the Queen is under oath to uphold the law of the land which is our common law. She is meant to stop the government overiding this and he has every power to do that. She can perfectly lawfully veto any treaty with for example the EU. Of course she doesn't do this and the royal family are even worse than the government. The government, judiciary, police and military are all under oath to the Queen because she is meant to protect our constitution which is based on common law. She is in total breach of her oath. This system doesn't function any more and it's flawed compared to the US constitution where everybody is meant to be sovereign but now that system is totally corrupted.

Also, the referendum that is (supposedly) going to be offered to the people of the UK about membership of the European union is a breach of our constitution because the EU as a whole has no such inalienable rights and treaties overide any such national constitutions of any member state. You can't have people voting away the rights of the minority. That's like saying there should be a vote in the US to do away with the constitution so the US can amalgamate with other countries where bureaucracies can give and take away rights.

Yes!
The idea that the majority can vote to take away a right of a minority is evil! So if the majority wants slavery again, does that mean we can have slavery? NO!!!! Rights can be added too. But they cannot be taken away.
In America rights come from God (by law) not from men, or any man. Therefore no man can undue what God has done. This is the terrible problem for people who want to discard the constitution in whole or in part. By claiming that they have the power to do it they are saying that they are gods (in law). They are not gods!!! They will bleed and die like all men do, if they try this by force... Again, the 2nd amendment.

I promise you this, everyone in my country knows that there will be civil war if rights are seized. PRISM is testing this. The only reason people are not out in the streets is because its described in national security terms. But more and more I keep hearing politicians (right and left) talk about PRISM in terms of law enforcement. So now cops have the resources of the Army? And can use it on the people?

Its terrifying! If you think gorilla warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan is bad, wait until you see it in Chicago, or NYC. Its a frigging nightmare! And thats what will happen if the left or right continue to play at being gods. "No man is safe. Ever", is also a two way street. We have seen this in resent american history from the far right (most notably) but also with the far left (though the left tends to be incompetent in terms of tactical violence). Need examples?

Just to be absolutely clear I condemn the idea of civil war, violent revolution, or killing anyone, except in self defense. So Since PRISM is reading us now, I just want to be clear. And yes I do feel a deeply chilling effect on my willingness to share my feeling as a result of PRISM and everything like it. Its like standing in a book store or library with the government standing right over your shoulder. It make you want to pretend to read only the books tiled "how to be better at obeying the government and never talking back". BY Barak Obama (forward by Nancy Pelosi and Satan him self).

LOOK! It is Jesus Obama! He has come back!
[attachimg=1]

The leftist media is full of these messianic images of the state (obama). Makes me want to Fu*#ing vomit my self to death.

Just a clarification.
The reason we say that our rights come from God (capital G) is because we believe that they do.
The practical manifestation of this for freedom and liberty (and Nation) is that it means that the state cannot become God.. like the soviet Union, or the Roman empire were to their people in their times. Mana does not come from the capital. Your gifts and talents do not come from Obama (or your overlords), therefore they cannot tell you what to do with them. This is why taxing your income is unnatural and inherently Satanic (literal and modernest). The reward of the sweat of your brow is yours by "natural law" (lincoln).

When men claim these powers, they become roman emperors. And if they are right and the constitution and bill of rights are wrong, nothing can stop them. They can come into your house an rape your wife. And yes they used to do this... England did it to the scots. (and there are example in contemporary times as well)

PRISM is molesting you right now.

Personally I'd leave god (small g intentional) out of the argument.

Below is a link to a long article showing how PRISM is but the tip of a very old iceberg of American surveillance. It goes way back to the mid 70's and involves capturing the data before it even enters the states in the vast undersea network of fibre optic cables. Very interesting read.

Secret to Prism program: Even bigger data seizure (http://phys.org/news/2013-06-secret-prism-bigger-seizure.html)

By leaving God out of it you miss my point entirely. And also a point of law. What I said was not an opinion, it is the law of the land.
Because God is in it, I am not a "subject" of your Queen, and likewise, I am free from the Queens church (God trumps Queen and church).
In order to leave out God I would have to be ignorant of 200+ years of American history.

My use of the word "God" here, has not been evangelical, but historical and intellectual (never minding my terrible spelling and sentence structure).
Taking any offense to it is simply silly. Like being irritated by talking about Cathédrale Notre Dame, and also talking about catholicism in France. It would be historically AND legally incorrect and flat out hateful.
This is why I talk about modernism in terms of satanism (Anton Szandor LaVey) and also literally.

Sorry I should not have made my crack about god, my bad :(
Edited the post.

But to say that there is a power that is higher that mankind is flawed and based on no empirical information anyone can show and to base a law on it makes no sense at all.
"In God we Trust", what on earth dose that mean? Its a great way of saying that we are not wise enough to come up with our own morals and standards, that we need some direction from above. And you can bet that someone will step up and start to say that they speak for the big G.

Anyway check out the article. I think theology vs morals vs politics is for another thread lol  ;D

If the power of a god is not claimed only by God, then they can be claimed by anyone; Hitler, Stalin, the Emperors, the kings of England, France and Germany, the Pope... If you do not give God the power of God it will be claimed by others. (Belief in God is not relevant).
History proves this empirically and absolutely without exception (look at the french revolution). The founders of America were geniuses! Don't you see it? I am not arguing that there is a God. Only that without "God", we are slaves.

We must look at history from the perspective of history, as well as hindsight.

QuoteBut to say that there is a power that is higher that mankind is flawed and based on no empirical information anyone can show and to base a law on it makes no sense at all.

What about Gravity?

Cyphyr,
I have not talked about theology at all! ONly American history in its proper context, and law.

Quote"In God we Trust", what on earth dose that mean?

This was added to currency (and also one nation under god to the pledge) as a response to modernism in the form of the soviet union. Obama and the progressive left prove that it is still needed. (See image I posted.)

I repeat, belief in "God" is not relevant to this discussion. Only making sure that men and state can not claim the authority of "God". And the only way to do that is the way we did it.

Some will argue that Europe has managed to do the same with-out "God" in your laws. But if you say that to me I will fall over laughing.

QuoteIf the power of a god is not claimed only by God, then they can be claimed by anyone; Hitler, Stalin, the Emperors, the kings of England, France and Germany, the Pope... If you do not give God the power of God it will be claimed by others. (Belief in God is not relevant).

I'm pretty sure I don't understand this at all. Maybe we are talking about different things. If some bully starts pushing me about be they a king or a priest and saying that they are doing it because they have the power of God, they may believe this but I only see a deluded bully. I'll still try to duck their punches and if they have managed to convince a mass of other people that they have the authority of god I had better be careful since then they can get the mass to do their bullying for them. But they will still be men and I will still not believe them.

Well I guess it's a matter of perspective then. The people you speak of, Hitler, Stalin, the Emperors, the kings of England, France and Germany, the Pope (probably technically not Stalin) all claimed some sort of divine right to rule over us. Your president has to swear an oath of office on a bible. Doing so gives him a moral obligation and authority based on err ....... nothing at all.

I would rather a viewpoint that dose not have the concept of god in the first place. Yes it is a historical fact that people believed in gods and based their power on a derived right from these gods but that dose not mean we have to do the same today. We are entirely capable of a moral and ethical standpoint without resorting to the backup of a supernatural power.

Gravity has no moral or ethical position or power and exists due to the properties of Mass (and a couple of other things). It controls our actions no more than the wind. Also it makes no claim of control.

Gona make dinner now, Shepherds pie Mmmmm

laters

Richard :)

QuoteOnly making sure that men and state can not claim the authority of "God". And the only way to do that is the way we did it.

Ah ok I can agree with that

Pffft! I really can't keep reading this and continue to be quiet. This is the 3rd extensive reply I've made to this thread and thought 'nah, better not, I'll lose friends over this'. Frankly(I'll probably say that word a lot in the next few lines), to believe that the words 'the constitution' means *anything* for you, in this day and age, is nothing more than infantile and ignorant. I see a few folk saying here how democracy is broken and not working in this current political climate, really? Tell me when it ever did! You THINK it might have for a time but has only ever given you the choice of X,Y and Z. What happens if we want to choose A, B, Green, Iron, Path, Fart, Onion, or infinite others? Is that, or has any of them ever been an available choice for you? Really, grow up! And whoever said 'don't vote' here, well, obviously! Why would anyone choose any of these pathetic choices to live their, and their loved ones, lives by?
Frankly, I'm more shocked and disturbed at the shock and disturb expressed in this thread over the trivialty of the governments spying, than the subject! For fuck sake, people! And, yes, I do think that some of us posting here, especially on this side of the Pond, are being overly polite in they're posts to save other's feelings. Well, there'll be none of that politeness from me, sick to the back teeth of politics and pussy-footing around 'Honorable Friends', again, fucking grow up. Pathetic!
So before I'm censored, barred and air-lifted to Guantanamo, it's been nice rendering with you! But(frankly), if you're that big of a gullible twat in real-life, then I'm better off out of it, honestly, I'll get on much better without idiots and numbcunts in my life at all!

Good day!

As for this 'God' aspect, fuck me! I truly despair!

QuoteI'm pretty sure I don't understand this at all. Maybe we are talking about different things. If some bully starts pushing me about be they a king or a priest and saying that they are doing it because they have the power of God, they may believe this but I only see a deluded bully. I'll still try to duck their punches and if they have managed to convince a mass of other people that they have the authority of god I had better be careful since then they can get the mass to do their bullying for them. But they will still be men and I will still not believe them.

Yes!
You still don't see what Im saying? I must just not be arguing well is all.

QuoteGravity has no moral or ethical position or power and exists due to the properties of Mass (and a couple of other things). It controls our actions no more than the wind. Also it makes no claim of control.

I did not say gravity has moral power, I was saying it had more power than all of man kind. You did not mention morality when you brought it up.
But as for it not affecting us more than wind, go rock climbing with me. When you slip, (as I have), these argument Im making come into a different light.

DandelO
Martin, none of my close friends in life have ever agreed with me on anything philosophical. Really, none!. I have never invested my self in any kind of friendship on agreement of any thing like what we argue about in these threads. ONly on one question; If I look out for them, will they look out for me?
Your having deep and strong feeling against what Im saying does not hurt my feelings at all. Its personal stuff I think.
But what else can we do? You say its all Fu*%ed. So dose everyone else. But what does talking about it hurt?

clearly i have crossed some line here though. so ill stop with this. I wish some one told me sooner though.

You are right Badger. The whole point is that these rights are god given. I'm not even religious. I would probably be called an athesist but I would side with a Christian or Muslim or whoever believes that you have fundamental rights given by god and not by some bureaucrat.

Quote from: cyphyr on June 15, 2013, 01:44:16 PM
But to say that there is a power that is higher that mankind is flawed and based on no empirical information anyone can show and to base a law on it makes no sense at all.
"In God we Trust", what on earth dose that mean? Its a great way of saying that we are not wise enough to come up with our own morals and standards, that we need some direction from above. And you can bet that someone will step up and start to say that they speak for the big G.

I think there are higher orders of principle at work in the universe than Mankind. Do we have all the empirical evidence to show how everything in the universe works?

To take what you say, it's common sense that some of these rights we have or have had should be above and beyond discussing their merits. They are simply obvious principles that shouldn't need to be questioned and that's why most religions have similar principles. Government says it can lock you up just on having suspicion that you are a terrorist. It should not even be discussed that another person can lock you up without any due process. That's surely a higher principle than needs to be decided by government. We don't need bureaucrats to codify that into law. It's obvious and it's why our common law system was based on very simple principles. It doesn't need thousands of pages of code to work out if you have or have not caused actual harm to another person.

The aim of the EU and most tyrannies is to outlaw everything that they have not codified into law. That's why you see this massive hundreds of thousands of pages of law on everything. It's the belief by bureaucrats that they can decide about everything and be like gods.

The point of the US constitution is not to restrict the people with laws but to restrict the government and anybody who says they speak for god is definitely not be to listened to. There was also a similar point of the British Bill Of rights, to restrict the power of the monarchy. None of these things are perfect but there is always a dynamic towards more freedom which in essense is the freedom to create which governments try to suppress. This is the real higher principle otherwise how would life on this planet have developed to where it is now? This is exactly what the creators of the US system understood and it's why the old tyrrants of Britian were against it because they knew that America could create itself into a wealthy power that could wipe out the old empire. Sadly, they didn't do a total job on that.

To those why say none of this matters, then why have we had more freedoms recently (at least in many western countries) than most past civilisations? We are in the trouble we are in because people have forgotten that without constant vigilance, tyranny arrives quickly. You don't escape it by simply saying voting doesn't matter, politicians are all corrupt, it's the way things are.

I honestly think we're pretty much in agreement here and we're arguing over semantics.

I think we all agree that our respective governments are corrupt. Yes?
I think we all agree that the invasive security measures (PRISM et al) are created around a false fear manufactured by said governments to control us. Yes?
As far as I can tell most of us believe that we should be allowed to do what we want as long as we don't cause harm to one-another, without oversight from a "nanny state". Yes?
So weather we like the term or not we are fundamentally anarchic. It is my belief that anarchy is a basic human state.
I think we can agreed that there are fundamental human rights, sustenance (food and water), shelter, freedom of movement, freedom of association, freedom of belief (there are problems with this one since some peoples belief is that I should burn in hell for example, fine as long as they don't act on it), freedom of expression, that all men and women are create equal. I'm sure there are a few more. We seem to disagree about where his freedom comes from but frankly dose that really matter? "We hold these truths to be self-evident ..."

Most of this argument seems to stem round what we should do about the fact that all of the above claims are either true or denied us.

Personally I don't think that a law written on a scrap of parchment means a great deal, IN PRACTICALITY, whether its a Bill of Rights, The Magna Carter (whichever version, there are at least 5!) or the Constitution (which has been re-written how many times?), or the "United nations declaration of Human Rights (which has no  legal bearing in any country!). Merely stating that I have "such and such" a right dose not stop a guy with a bigger stick in the pay of the "authority" taking that right away from me, probably by force. This will hurt, I don't like pain.

So we are back at the beginning again. What is there that we can actually do that will have any effect at all.

If I ever get any money I'm buying an island, you can all come and stay, we'll have render parties lol

Dinner is nearly done.

Later

Richard

Most people can agree in basics on what's right and wrong. Maybe this does develop over time. Maybe the concept of the Ten Commandments was some kind of revolutionary thing at the time but maybe it's also that people get away from using their basic intuition as part of a social species about what is right and wrong. That's why governments and bankers spend such huge amounts of money brainwashing people and it's why I think a crucial thing is that people stop getting their information from these sources. At the moment Obama has declared that the Syrian government has used chemical weapons. Why should anybody believe this? Haven't there been enough lies to show that these people will say anything and not just Obama. We have another idiot in the UK called Cameron who is on the same agenda. A quick search by anyone on this issue will reveal that it's almost certainly a fabrication for a host of reasons.

Michael, I don't. And as usual, I'm guilty of being haughty-taughty, and apparently personalising my post towards yourself, which, btw, it isn't, I hope you'll know. I'm angry at this whole, accepting species, gladly putting control in the hands of the precious few who will smile and tell us all they work for us. I'm frustrated by the accepting many, who think that this is ok, and any way to run a World. I always get myself into shit, be it on or offline, with the brash way I eventually declare my points of view, I usually just duck out of these sort of things thesedays, especially online, for this very reason. I should really know better by now. I stand by these points, though. I REALLY, do think it is infantile and ignorant for any grown adult to put into ANY another's hands the choices, regardless of public acceptance, and welfare of one's own self and family. That is the lazy-minded-man's option. 'Let's just accept that Mr and Mrs Government know best how I should run me and my family's life, and go along with that.' Nu-uh! Why should I? Why should you? Somebody tells you there's such a thing as The Constitution, Glory-Glory, hallelujah! That is (frankly) a pathetic thing to base your life upon. Does nobody else see that? Maybe the morals and contents therein are very sensible, indeed, but as soon as this is GIVEN to you, and you willingly accept to accept that, you have already given yourself away! That to me is the most simple concept to grasp. And it (frankly) disgusts me that we humans will accept these non-existant things and concepts and base our lifes upon them.

I'm sorry, Michael. This is most definitely not a personal thing, I'm sure if we had a personal forum where everyone just spoke naturally to each and the other(and maybe that's not a bad idea), as opposed to an open discussion thread in some obscure graphics website, things would be as ordered as parliament! :D

As it stands, believe me, it is not personal, it is however strictly speciesal, no offence.

QuoteI honestly think we're pretty much in agreement here and we're arguing over semantics.

Agree mostly

I think I just used to much rhetoric. But I can't deny that I am as angry as I'v let on. And I sincerely believe this is all as bad as It feels (PRISM and the like). Especially the deliberate killing of children, and in particular American children by the US government.

QuoteI think we all agree that our respective governments are corrupt. Yes?
I think we all agree that the invasive security measures (PRISM et al) are created around a false fear manufactured by said governments to control us. Yes?
As far as I can tell most of us believe that we should be allowed to do what we want as long as we don't cause harm to one-another, without oversight from a "nanny state". Yes?
So weather we like the term or not we are fundamentally anarchic. It is my belief that anarchy is a basic human state.
I think we can agreed that there are fundamental human rights, sustenance (food and water), shelter, freedom of movement, freedom of association, freedom of belief (there are problems with this one since some peoples belief is that I should burn in hell for example, fine as long as they don't act on it), freedom of expression, that all men and women are create equal. I'm sure there are a few more.

Yes, agree!... Nearly completely.

QuoteWe seem to disagree about where his freedom comes from but frankly dose that really matter? "We hold these truths to be self-evident ..."

Yes it matters! Where it comes from determines who can take it away, and in what manner they may take it. Truth is not subject to opinion. The truth is the truth regardless of if we know it or not, or believe it. That is why he used the word, and not something like, "We hold these beliefs to be important", or something like that.

QuoteMost of this argument seems to stem round what we should do about the fact that all of the above claims are either true or denied us.

Agree!

QuoteMerely stating that I have "such and such" a right dose not stop a guy with a bigger stick in the pay of the "authority" taking that right away from me, probably by force.

You are right! May I recommend an Ar15? Ill let you borrow one... So you see, that scrap of paper has some power after all... about 975 meters per second of power.

QuoteSo we are back at the beginning again. What is there that we can actually do that will have any effect at all.

Yep!

QuoteIf I ever get any money I'm buying an island, you can all come and stay, we'll have render parties lol

I hope you will let me come even though we are different! If theres one place I wont talk politics or religion, its on a white sandy beach! Gota have some boundaries  ;)


Really sorry if I have upset you guys! I did not intend to say anything upsetting to anyone other than the people who killed that boy, and who would defend it.

The thing about the US consitiution (or similar type documents in other countries) is that it's the government that is supposed to live within it's rules so I think in that case the people aren't so much living by some rules set out in a document. Their rules to live by are meant to be just common sense do no harm to neighbour type stuff. So in this case I think it's fine for the people to demand that public servants live within certain rules set out in a document because they can very easily abuse their power.

Everything is completely upside down. Government spies on people but people aren't supposed to spy on government.

Another example is that the people pay taxes but big corporations don't. The people are not actually supposed to pay any taxes out of wages unless they are partaking in commerce. It's corporations partaking in commerce who are supposed to pay taxes for public infrastructure. This is simple to understand. Commerce as in buying and selling but not actually making. Taxing this but not taxing actual creative production. The constant bankruptcies of banks, governments and related corporations has been underwritten by the wealth of the people again and again. We bail them out constantly after they have taken the wealth that they are supposed to give back in taxes. This system has gone as far as it can without total collapse.

Martin
Thank you for pulling back a bit. You know that I respect you and that I think your a good fellow.

In response to your post I only want to correct one thing. And that is that I don't put my life in the hands of anyone, and most definitely not my family! This thread was about taking that power back, not giving it up even more. Also the name calling does not bother me much... You should here how my friends and I talk :o "Cunt" was a little harsh though :-[

I was arguing about government. And in no way shape or form do I trust them with my life or my families (or any religion or political party). But if we must have a government then I was just having my say. And yes, I am a man of some degree of faith, but I have my own reasons for that just as you have yours for not. I don't question anyone for believing or not, it is a deeply personal thing. Im sorry to have sparked those parts in this thread. That was (I still think) clearly not my intention. And frankly, I don't know how what I said missed my mark. I thought I was arguing my points well.

I wrote about these things in this forum because Im interested in this communities ideas, perceptions and feelings. But you are not the first person to raise ire over politics here. Perhaps we should ban political speech in this forum after all? Its really not the reason I come here, or anyone else I think... Except Pennag, or whatever his name is. And I would be most hurt If it was me who made such a great contributor like you to stop participating here! Really, that would make me sad. You have helped me in my professional life, you know.

To tell you the truth, I would never have ever posted any touchy subjects like this if I had not read so many before joining the community (and since joining). That there are so many older topics on politics and other passion filled subjects is the only reason I thought I was fine to do it.

Its up to you guys, I will not fight it one bit if planetside makes a new speech rule. I'll support what you guys want. Its more important to me that I can talk to you all about tech, than politics... Very much so!
But again, for the most part I thought we would all be simpatico on this one issue at least.

And really, We don't know each other. I very much doubt that I will ever get to meet any of you guys in person. But I truly do like you all.
I am not a lonely person or anything. I have friends and family. But this community resonates with me differently (for some reason) than my personal life or the rest of the internet. I just like it here is all.
I came as I am.

-me

I might have used that c-word too readily. I do apologise for that. We're a rough bunch in this neck of the womb and, actually, that's a very often used, many times as a term of endearment word: 'He's a good c_nt, is Thom!', 'Look at that daft c_nt!, John, lying in a pool of himself!', 'That c_nt'll believe anything!' Even the greeting, 'how you doing, y'c_nt!' is perfectly acceptable parlance in this nasty corner of the world. :/ bunch of horrid c_nts that we are here, sorry.
I suppose I'd best watch my mouth. I think I'll duck out of this thread, like I should've kept it for this last couple of weeks. Should have just bought a bag of popcorn and continued the reading but I do get excacerbated by the ready-acceptance of ordered tyrrany that people just love to accept and base their lives on these days.
As I see it of course, I might be wrong, although, I never have been before! ;)

No worries Martin! Despite that you don't agree with me (I'll never understand that :o), I still think your brilliant.

Its funny! Despite that I have family ties to England Ireland and Scotland, I don't know as much about daily culture there as I should. Most of what I know about Scotland comes from Sean Connery, and the film Trainspotting. Both great by the way ;)

[attach=1]

you daft c_nt!
;D

Just one other point here about the whole god thing. I used to believe it was bad to think that there was this higher power called god for the same reason some of you have mentioned. That it is saying we can't decide on our own morals. However, I think you have to make a distiction here from an individual believing this and an institution claiming to have the voice to speak for god.

Nicely put :) I agree :)

And ... official list of social networking monitored words by NSA/PRISM dudes ...
Have fun :)
Link (http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/02/official-list-of-words-feds-monitor-on-social-networking-sites-1825136.html?utm_term=http%3A%2F%2Fb4in.info%2Fq8Er&utm_campaign=&utm_content=beforeit39snews-floatingtoolbar&utm_source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fl.php%3Fu%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Ft.co%252FArJu8vjkFE%26h%3DYAQFZYAf_%26s%3D1&utm_medium=twitter)

^^ well I'm dead. How fast do drones travel? ANyone know? Im too fat and too old to run.. screw it.

New scandal revealed by Snowy. This time the Brits. But that's what secret services do anyway, right?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/16/gchq-intercepted-communications-g20-summits

Good grief. I'm not surprised at all but as Badger started this thread off with an apology I feel I should offer one too on behalf of my so called Government.
Embarrassing, ridiculous and ultimately self defeating.I wonder what the next big reveal will be.

Quote from: cyphyr on June 17, 2013, 03:20:53 AM
Good grief. I'm not surprised at all but as Badger started this thread off with an apology I feel I should offer one too on behalf of my so called Government.
Embarrassing, ridiculous and ultimately self defeating.I wonder what the next big reveal will be.

Honestly, I don't *really* think this is a big reveal. Intelligence agency spy, that's what they do. In contrast, PRISM was a big reveal, because it means spying on everyone, all the time. This one in the UK is just embarrassing for the UK intelligence.

Quote from: TheBadger on June 15, 2013, 07:20:04 PMHow fast do drones travel? ANyone know? Im too fat and too old to run.. screw it

Did the founding fathers of America run away, or did they fight on till the end ?

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

America used to be a country others look up to, no more, and whose fault is it?

The POTUS, or the people ?

Who elected the POTUS ? The people of America, of course !

Do not blame others for the fault of oneself - and the founding fathers of the United Staes of America didn't waste time blaming others. Instead, they took up arms and fought the tyrannical colonial government

Why can't the present crop of Americans do what their forefather did ?

Have you guys gone soft and useless ?

And do you know that America is not alone in this - the UK, Australia, Canada and NZ all signed on to the Echelon with the United States, and until today, the 5 spook agencies of the 5 countries are still exchanging informations

Some interesting perspectives from Naomi Wolf here (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/06/naomi-wolf-edward-snowden-false-flag-conspiracy.html?mid=google&google_editors_picks=true), which is a condensed version of the authors Facebook Note here ( Friday, 14 June 2013) (https://www.facebook.com/notes/naomi-wolf/my-creeping-concern-that-the-nsa-leaker-is-not-who-he-purports-to-be-/10151559239607949) and here ( Sunday, 16 June 2013) (https://www.facebook.com/notes/naomi-wolf/some-aspects-of-snowdens-presentation-that-i-find-worth-further-inquiry-an-updat/10151561401552949)

Quote from: penang on June 17, 2013, 05:53:48 AM

Quote from: TheBadger on June 15, 2013, 07:20:04 PMHow fast do drones travel? ANyone know? Im too fat and too old to run.. screw it

Do not blame others for the fault of oneself - and the founding fathers of the United Staes of America didn't waste time blaming others. Instead, they took up arms and fought the tyrannical colonial government

Why can't the present crop of Americans do what their forefather did ?

Have you guys gone soft and useless ?

Personally, I don't wish to read inflammatory calls to arms in this debate, in this forum. Thanks.

Quote from: cyphyr on June 17, 2013, 06:25:48 AMSome interesting perspectives from Naomi Wolf here (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/06/naomi-wolf-edward-snowden-false-flag-conspiracy.html?mid=google&google_editors_picks=true), which is a condensed version of the authors Facebook Note here ( Friday, 14 June 2013) (https://www.facebook.com/notes/naomi-wolf/my-creeping-concern-that-the-nsa-leaker-is-not-who-he-purports-to-be-/10151559239607949) and here ( Sunday, 16 June 2013) (https://www.facebook.com/notes/naomi-wolf/some-aspects-of-snowdens-presentation-that-i-find-worth-further-inquiry-an-updat/10151561401552949)

Naomi Wolf is a typical liberal who can't think out of a paperbag

There is a reply to Naomi that is much more worthy to be read, and I quote:

"Aldous C. Tyler Reading this piece, Naomi, I think you are notably off base *this* time. I'm not saying Snowden doesn't have a few hidden agenda points, but seriously, the things you are pointing to as red flags are very easily explained by the simple quirks some people evince that others do not. He may not have trusted to have an attorney represent him, he likely has been practicing this a long time before deciding to do it. He has seen Bradley Manning tarred and feathered for not being careful about what was released and for having virtually no control over how it was presented. Overall, I think you may have been looking into the abyss so long, it's hard to let go sometimes and realize that people are different on their approaches.

What Snowden revealed isn't the typical "the government is watching you" warning. That is what the corporate-owned media is trying to turn it into. THAT isn't him. That's THEM. He's shown that it is rather that the government, right down to its intelligence operations, is wholly owned by corporate powers. That is NOT the message they want out there at all."

Quote from: cyphyr on June 17, 2013, 06:25:48 AMSome interesting perspectives from Naomi Wolf here (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/06/naomi-wolf-edward-snowden-false-flag-conspiracy.html?mid=google&google_editors_picks=true), which is a condensed version of the authors Facebook Note here ( Friday, 14 June 2013) (https://www.facebook.com/notes/naomi-wolf/my-creeping-concern-that-the-nsa-leaker-is-not-who-he-purports-to-be-/10151559239607949) and here ( Sunday, 16 June 2013) (https://www.facebook.com/notes/naomi-wolf/some-aspects-of-snowdens-presentation-that-i-find-worth-further-inquiry-an-updat/10151561401552949)

Another excellent reply to Naomi's half-baked liberal conspiracy theory is at

https://www.facebook.com/notes/revolution-news-network/this-isnt-about-snowden-its-about-the-other-traitors-still-in-the-room/589067181126518

This Isn't About Snowden: It's About the Other Traitors Still In the Room


"Let's assume that the most vile of human beings --one that is not only a traitor, but also thief and a liar and a burglar, a kidnapper, an arsonist and a rapist --proves to you and the world that the following has happened to you and your family:


--A group of people are stalking you, collecting photos, listening to, monitoring, recording and saving your telephone conversations, surfing habits, and building a database and chart with everyone you know, interact with, whether your family, work, or acquaintances. In addition, your political and religious beliefs, where you shop, what you buy and even what you like to eat and what music you listen to and the books you read.


Now let's assume that you take the side of the people who call this hypothetical person a traitor, a thief and a liar and a burglar, and a kidnapper, and an arsonist and a rapist and that you agree with them, and further that this person should be tried and punished.


Good enough. That's one criminal down. Now what about the other one?



What other one?


Remember the other criminal that you now know is stalking you, collecting your photos, listening to calls and record your internet, social, shopping, political, and religious connections?


Yeah what about that criminal?


Because what's being overlooked quite purposefully in the media, on the Senate floor, and in the Oval Office is that there are two traitors in the room.


Always remember that one traitor has outed the other.


And that other traitor? He (or they are) is desperately trying to airbrush themselves out of the room before anyone notices."

You read the rest on FB, if you choose to

You have to look at who the real enemy is. The real enemy of the US is Britain or rather the city of London. It's also the enemy of the people of Britain. Always has been. The US it trying to fight battles by using the methods of their enemy. That's why they are all over the planet with militiary bases and economically bankrupt. This is British Empire method. Lying sewer rat Obama would fit right into the British House of Commons. Do you think Lincoln or Kennedy would fit in there. No, they got rid of those guys.

QuoteHonestly, I don't *really* think this is a big reveal. Intelligence agency spy, that's what they do. In contrast, PRISM was a big reveal, because it means spying on everyone, all the time. This one in the UK is just embarrassing for the UK intelligence.

Strongly agree with this statement, Frank.

Most of this does not bother me one bit. But PRISM represents a terrible turn for the worse.

I use the internet like a library/bookstore. I look at everything! I have looked at enemy/terrorist websites, read about weapons and explosives. Looked at racist websites. Read extremist philosophy (right and left) as well as a big swath of crazy religious stuff (mostly just western religious stuff). So by my search history Im a freak. I cant even imagine what it must look like! Now add to that the fact that pretty much anything you search on google will also end up leading to porn, and it would look very bad for anyone.
I once searched for an ice cream recipe and ran into a link for "two girls and a cup".

If that link Richard put up is accurate (the one about target words), than we are all on a watch list.

@penang
Last time you scolded me that muslims are everywhere, that they will kill my family and it will be my fault.
Now you say the Government is my enemy and I need to start a civil war. If I listen to you I should probably just kill my family and my self to save everyone else the trouble... Sheesh!

P.S.

Earlier I said I was to fat to run. But really Im not fat, just lazy. Running sucks, and its bad on your knees. Also its hot out.  ;D

Im curious what the name of the guy at NSA who has to read our posts is. I wonder if he is sitting there right now thinking to himself, "Sheesh, I cant believe this is what I do with my day. I should have been a doctor".

Guys, notice how David Cameroon is pushing for free trade agreement with US and EU. One of the cornerstones of the Britisih Empire was free trade. It was part of the tyranny thast caused the American revolution. Also, Cameron is trying to quickly lock the UK into this because there is massive growing opposition to the EU and growing support for UKIP. Free trade enables big corporations to make countries interdependant so they can lock everyone down into poverty and government control of trade by big corporations is lost. At the same time Cameron is on about clamping down on tax evasion of these corporations. Lies and more lies and Obama is simply a stooge working for this agenda.

This trade agreement will become the all in one agreement covering corporate asses in multiple ways.
ACTA looks pale in comparison to this new treaty for example.
The next thing, after this, is a truly corporate government.
We already almost have it, if not already, but it will become a public(ally accepted?) thing that corporations make the law and tell governments how the business needs to be runned. More people realise that politicians are just puppets/marionettes of corporate interests.

I know none of you here live in The Netherlands, but I can dump a few links here to Dutch companies you can pay who in turn will lobby for you in our government to help you in your business.
In a normal world among the average people that's simply called corruption.

All these Sci-Fi movies showing dirty consumed planets with armed corporate entities who have the absolute power and make the calls.
I wonder how much fiction that will be in the future.

I can write endless stories and dump countless links on how sick the whole situation is getting, but I will refrain from that.
Sometimes I wish I was dumb and indifferent about everything around me, like so many others who are indifferent. Ignorance truly is a bliss :D lol

Hey guys,

I think you're going a bit crazy here with your visions of the future, and speculations about who is the enemy of what.
I love this place for argumentation, and this conversation is no exception, but it becomes a bit weird to have too much conspiracy theory woven into it ;-)

I think you truly believe what you are writing - otherwise, why would you bother typing all this? However, I think your scenarios and speculations are built on a lot of assumptions and generalizations, and possibly focus on the worst possible outcomes.

In particular - and that one gave me a laugh - I do not follow on why the city of London is supposed to be the USA's biggest enemy.

Anyway, surely because I do not confirm your negative speculations, you will be tempted to brand me as a stupid ignorant, whichfor I am blissed ;-)

Cheers
Frank

Despite the pleasure I get from indulging in conspiracy theories (not unlike zombie stuff) I am inclined to agree with Frank again on this.

We have real problems in the world, that do not require anymore proof. Things that are clearly visible to everyone regardless of specialized knowledge (banking, economics, government, intelligence). I wish people would focus their energy on the things that are proven more than things that are likely never going to be proven, especially if they are true.

For example, in the US, the killing of the 15 year old boy. It is likely a murder carried out by the government. The chain of command reaching to the President. If Americans would focus on just this thing alone, we could have the SOB impeached by the end of the week. See what I mean?

PRISM is another example where we can do real action... Last night the writer of the "Patriot act" said in no uncertain terms, that PRISM is both illegal and unconstitutional, and that the government knows so.

If we focused on that we may be able to shut this crap down?

Still, I do enjoy the conspiracy stuff, which in the end, is probably mostly true.

Well I think you guys are the last I would call ignorant and of course I'm exaggerating a bit here and there.
I guess though that a polluted planet by fearless corporations isn't that far from the truth.
Just search for palmoil industry in Brasil and Indonesia, it's devastating.
Not to mention oil and mining industry. The mess is much bigger than we're allowed to know and I've only mentioned 3 out of dozens of options.

It's funny though.
There's a Dutch website with a pretty huge forum with one subsection called "Brave New World" where they discuss this weird conspiracy stuff.
Chemtrails, food/water poisoning, reptillians and what not. LMAO about those subjects. I'm open to alternative stuff, but that's really beyond me.
What's funny though, is that they are now revamping old thread from many years ago about where they speculate on the truth about the financial crisis, on spying on people, on suspicions about bad/corrupt politicians and/or corporations etc. etc.
Why do they revamp those threads? Because the lunatics and tin foil hats from that time were so damn right it seems now.
To the letter, to the name, to the mechanisms and actions they describe. Much of it seemed to be true and so were they back then about what's now known as PRISM.

I know funny and absolutely unplausible things are said and discussed on those alternative, less known, websites.
But if you filter out the most absolute crap and do a bit of research on the names of the journalist and people mentioned in the article you can estimate reasonably well if it's total nonsense or has some plausibility.

In my opinion, since everybody seems to agree or know that mainstream media is manipulative, one is really depriving him/herself if he/she isn't reading at least some alternative news sources.
A mild one for example is RussiaToday. It's pretty anti-kapitalistic, not necessarily anti-western, so that gives useful and different angles on the economical news.
Same goes for Al-Jazeera, although that is slowly changing, it used to give a (slightly) different view on Middle-East problematics.
There are also interesting books, like Joris Luyendijks'  book on how the mainstream media systematically spreads false information to the western society:
http://www.amazon.com/People-Like-Us-Misrepresenting-Middle/dp/1593762569/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371587239&sr=8-1&keywords=joris+luyendijk
Of course there are plenty other interesting ones which offer a different view than AP and Reuters, who seem to be quoted by the entire press-entity.
There's always a completely other side of the story which you can't ignore if you want to develop an opinion outside the one being generated for you by AP or Reuters and the like.

I always like to think the truth is in between the 2 extremes and that's already a pretty serious situation we're in now.

That's where I agree with Michael.
At some point, perhaps now or in the near future it is truly enough and we need to stand up and try to make an end to these epic lies and business.

On mobile so can't easily post links.
Chemtrails is now acknoledged by both UK and US governments. Theres a report on it on the uk government web site. Search for geo-engeneering and atmospheric modification. The apparent issue is that these "secret" geo engeneering projects are un coordinated between governments.
Re "City of London" worth Looking into. Again reputable links are available. It is a quasi state NOT under the governance of the ellected UK parliment. Similar to Rome. This puts it in an interesting and powerful position. No arrests have been made of bankers based in the city over recent financial debacles due to this.
It has its own un elected courts and officials selected from its banking institutions.
Corrupt hardly begins to cover it!

What people refer to with City of London as biggest enemy of the USA has to do with something else.

It's a theory by the people who talk about the illuminati. Something I refuse to believe as an active organized entity.
However, the people who they refer to as illuminati are definitely interesting.
These are families, mostly, like Morgan (JP Morgan Bank), Rothschild (Bank), Rockefeller, Windsor etc.
What people refer to with City of London as biggest enemy of the USA is family Windsor vs Rockefeller etc.
The British/European illuminati competing for ultimate power with its USA equivalents.

I find that too far fetched at this moment, but frankly nothing would surprise me.
The Libor-rate fraud was of epic unbelievable proportions and is totally silenced by the media.
It was something I didn't dare to think about a couple of years ago.

What I think is not too far fetched is that these families with all the banks they own, because let's not forget that these crisis-causing banks are all privately owned by these families, are pulling strings behind the curtains.

On the banking stuff, Im a pretty big fan of what Iceland did. I think its hilarious! What I find most interesting about it is that, despite being very relevant to current topics in the US, there was next to zero discussion of it in the news. Which is really interesting being that cable news and corporate news call them selves "entertainment". And as I said, what Iceland did to the UK and Dutch banks was hilarious.
The only problem with it is the amounts of dollars (or whatever currencies) were to small. Only 5 billion US. That chicken feed. THe US spends that on toilet paper just for the military.
So its hard to determine from such a small amount what damage actions like Iceland took would do if the people of the US did something similar... We need a larger laboratory to try it out... try 3 trillion and see what happens. Then I think the results will not be so funny.

On the secret society stuff. I tend to think this is all real. Because in the end what are we really talking about, except a collection of rich people who influence current events (directly or indirectly) meeting in secret, and with entirely to much pride. I think it is nothing special.
Bringing down PRISIM, and doing justice for that kid, would take down half of the current establishment. And then (and this is the had part), we fill the power vacuum back up with honest, decent people. I know its far fetched (The honest and decent people part). But it sounds a lot better than taking my rifle and joining a revolt.

On what Im saying about taking down PRISIM and the rest. I mean putting everyone who is a part of it, and who also swore to uphold the constitution, in prison. The murders can win some of them a ride on the electric chair... The congress too.

So Obama just spoke inn Germany.

Can one of you guys in Germany tell me what the feeling there was? I heard in the news that his reception was nothing like the first time he was there. But that not really telling me much.
What was the perception, really?

Quote from: TheBadger on June 20, 2013, 03:11:44 AM
So Obama just spoke inn Germany.

Can one of you guys in Germany tell me what the feeling there was? I heard in the news that his reception was nothing like the first time he was there. But that not really telling me much.
What was the perception, really?

I wasn't paying attention, I was just too busy with work yesterday. I think there were mixed feelings from what I've heard. Some love Obama, others have demonstrated against PRISM, others have been calling him a liar, including journalists in commentaries in newspapers this morning.

well, when Obama was in germany the first time, the expectations have been very high, people hoped he would change a lot (when it comes to different wars, guantanamo and more).

Until now most of his visions still are just visions and in some cases "it" got even worse (drone attacks, prism), so now people simply have not been that ecstatic anymore.

Here's an example of the sort of nutjobs we have. Ray Kurzweil, director of engineering at Google:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2344398/Google-futurist-claims-uploading-entire-MINDS-computers-2045-bodies-replaced-machines-90-years.html

How much resources will be sapped by this kind of thing? All for the Oligarchical elites of course not for everyone else, who they want to just kill off. A computer can never replace a human.

Yesterday Bernanke  the new "god" of the US spoke. "Hinted" that he might wind down QE (if the economy started recovering) and the markets all respond. So the US is now a totally centrally planned economy where the fed controls everything otherwise why would the markets go up and down on everything the fed does or even hints at? Wait for the new "free" trade deal that Obama is heading for with the EU to further destroy the US. That's Obama's job of course.

It all ties in with the same thing. Central planning by a bunch of total psychopaths who believe they can engineer everything including engineering everyone else they don't need out of the equation. When will people wake up to this and stop consenting to these people running the show?

Thanks guys. I was just curious what the feeling was.
I was rather surprised that he and Merkel had to be in that blast proof glass box. The only times I have seen those is at international airports, where there are Israeli Air terminals.

I have to say, that he needed to be behind that glass, even in front of such a small audience was rather telling.

@efflux
It does give new meaning to the term, "balls of steel".

At the end of day, i wish we could live in this kind of world.

http://youtu.be/xMoPBDz5ycA

I know, it's unrealistic but at least a Minarchy is a start. I see many here are starting to wake up and that is great. To see the corruption behind centralized planning and internal abuse before our eyes. Thankfully it will not last, question is what to do to survive the fall.

They charged the leaker with espionage today. He was not charged with treason.
That is fair, he did break his oath. But the question is, does his oath to the constitution override his oath to keep the secrecy act.
It is conceivable that he may be worthy of a pardon or commuted sentence. So long as he is not giving details to other governments. If he continues only to leak the programs that violate the constitution, and not the details of how they work or any technology (other than the existence), he may be able to return home one day.

I truly hope he is what he says, and not what he is being called.

I maintain that if the people in the US government (or any government) are not smart enough to protect both life and liberty. Than they are not smart enough to be in the government at all.

We were told that Obama is always the smartest man in the room, no mater what room or who may be there with him. Clearly, we were lied too.

Clare Daly is my Hero!

http://youtu.be/S5oJPLy3cmY

WOW!

I'll tell you Im not a big fan of listening to other governments talk crap about mine, but that was rather entertaining! Mostly I was hoping to hear regular people in Europe speak against Obama and what a total and complete lying hypocrite he is.
But that will do I guess  ;D

I do have to say that woman has huge testicles though! I cant pretend to know anything about Irish Governance and politics, but I gather that the  lady in the video is a member of Parliament. And that she is speaking directly to the leader of Ireland?  What I wouldn't give to hear a senator or congressman (not on the campaign trail) speak to Obama that way. Directly and matter of fact.

I like her.

That speech was very nice, indeed.

In other news, this video is very important to anyone who wants to truly open there mind to it.

http://youtu.be/33PX6qy7gyw

A lot of things that were called conspiracy theory are now pretty much fact. Chemtrails for example.

Bilderberg group met in London and Michael Meacher brought that up in Parliament. Ken Clarke had to answer. He's in charge of Bilderberg steering group. Bilderberg goes right back to ex Nazis. They had the idea of bringing in the European Union by stealth. Ken Clarke wants secret courts in the UK. All that stuff about Gay marriage that filled the media a few months ago. That covered up the bringing in of secret courts. Ken Clarke is totally into a United Europe. Join the dots and there is conspiracy but it's not theory.

As for City Of London. It's a separate City State like the Vatican and District Of Columbia in the US. These are three centres of total corruption and linked because the Roman Empire is the source of this system. They moved to Venice, then the Netherlands (I think), then London and now the US. They run the monetary system which is totally in opposition to the US credit system started by Alexander Hamilton. Who was shot by Aaron Burr:

"Burr founded the Bank of the Manhattan Company, which in later years was absorbed into the Chase Manhattan Bank, which in turn became part of JPMorgan Chase."

Jamie Dimon (chairman, president and chief executive officer of JPMorgan Chase) has the guns that killed Hamilton on the wall in the anteroom to his office in proud recognition of the fact that a founder of J P Morgan murdered one of the founding fathers of America and the person who essentially started the revolution against that banking cartel that goes right back to City Of London and Rome.

But this is all conspiracy theory?

As for the British Royal family. they aren't even British. They made the Windsor name up. Their real name was Saxe-Coburg and Gotha but they had to hide the fact that they were German during WW1. Edward VIII abdicated supposedly because he married a divorcee. They went on their honeymoon to Nazi Germany. Even after the War, Edward Duke of "Windsor' still totally supported what the Nazis did. Here he is with Hitler and inspecting the SS just before the war:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b8/Duke_and_Duchess_of_Windsor_meet_Adolf_Hitler_1937.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-17964%2C_Ordensburg_Kr%C3%B6ssinsee%2C_Herzog_von_Windsor.jpg)

They went there totally against advice of the British government.

There are more photos of the current Queens husband Prince Philip (Battenberg) with Nazis. His best mate Prince Bernhard of Lippe-Biesterfeld (Bilderberg founder) was actually ex SS.

The Royal Family are totally tied in with the bankers. The Queen heads up the City Of London Corporation. Recently she stepped in to make sure the right to make the final decision to go to war was still with her and not Parliament. Notice this stuff about Cameron at the moment and how he might bypass Parliament to go to war with Syria. He does this by going to the Queen. Defeating Syria a must be step for the Oligarchical masterplan. The trouble is these people are utterly insane. Quite literally. The Queen had cousins in a mental asylum. They are all inbred and psychopathic.

The point about Germany is that they have on several occasions become a serious industrial power including being influenced by the US so that has to be put down by the Oligarchs. Hitler would have got nowhere without total support from London and Wall Street.

J P Morgan:

"On reflection, the collusion of Chase Bank (now J.P. Morgan Chase), with the Nazis isn't so surprising. One of its major shareholders, J.D. Rockefeller, had directly funded Nazi eugenics experiments before the war. Between 1936 and 1941, Chase and other US banks helped the Germans raise over $20 million in dollar exchange, netting over $1.2 million in commission — of which Chase pocketed a cool $500,000. That was a lot of money at the time. The fact that the German marks used to fund the operation came from Jews who had fled Nazi Germany didn't seem to bother Chase — in fact they upped their business after Kristallnacht (the night Jews throughout Nazi Germany and Austria were systematically attacked by mobs in 1938). Chase also froze the accounts of French Jews in occupied France before the Nazis had even gotten around to asking them to."

They tell you what they are planning. Just read the documents:

http://am.jpmorgan.co.uk/institutional/_documents/mi-ecb-long-road-mkr-lu-en.pdf

There's masses of documents like that.

Who's running this show? The very people that caused the problems. They helped fix the books of several countries to get them into the EU trap.

Bail ins are now law. It's in the US Dodd-Frank Bill (30,000 pages) as well. That does the opposite of Glass Steagall.

Creditors (that's anyone with bank deposit now called unsecured creditors) will be wiped out or become shareholders. Of course those shares should end up worthless but then some banker will pick it up from you for peanuts. Other financial institutions that are creditors in a failing financial institution will not be part of the bail in because of course that could cause financial instability. So in essence they get bailed out via more direct theft but bail outs will also have to continue. Also, under Dodd-Frank in particular, you can get a prison sentence for disclosing that an institution is in any trouble. That's so that creditors money can be immediately stole without warning.

Cyprus was just a test run.

The arguments in favour of this by banks are cuckoo land. If a bank is about to collapse and hence the creditors are wiped out how can that be made into a viable business again? It's only viable for bankers who take all the assets and carry on. Where are these bankers? Mostly in the City Of London. Where were these new rules for the US and EU sorted out? At the 2009 London G20 summit where all the participants were spied on to make sure the went along with it. You have to shut down these banks totally and put bankers out of jobs. Just protect the commercial banks not investment banks. Exactly as in Glass Steagall.

Will bail ins cover for the quadrillions in debt?


J P Morgan and the likes are no different from their previous incarnations that supported Hitler.

The bankers are bankrolling total facsism now just like did in the 1930s with Bank Of England and BIS who bankrolled Hitler.

In the US, markets rocket up on bad economic news and turn own on good economic news because the worse it gets the more bankers make. The more the real economy is destroyed the more bankers make and that's built into law now.

9/11? You think that was some terrorists in some caves in Afghanistan? No, that was a British instigated operation through their allies Saudi Arabia. They knew the US couldn't respond correctly because the US is supplied oil from Saudi Arabia. Instead the US is now owned by the Banking cartel centred in London and their Wall Street offshoot.

I think that's some crazy bull, Efflux.
Of course, based on my own assumptions about how things work politically.
On top of that, I find it strange, far fetched and peculiar, how this thread went from debating PRISM all the way down to how the UK Rules the world, and even digging up old Nazi stuff.

Well.. this certainly takes Planetside's vision of 'World Building' to another dimension  ::).  However, while following this thread I certainly can't discount anyone's opinion of what is happening, or how the current state of international affairs came to be. It seems to me that the more 'powerless' we feel as individuals the more radical our idea's of what conspiracies are truly operative in the affairs of the world. As an American steeped in the philosophies of the authors and influences that led to the social contract called the United States Constitution, I am profoundly dismayed once again at the excesses of power, greed and corruption prevalent in the good ole USA. Obama thinks the NSA surveillance culture is "transparent": even the Russians and the Chinese call 'BS' on that one.  However, maybe this is what Obama really meant by "transparent".

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/415539/wireless-network-modded-to-see-through-walls/

The advent of this type of technology probably spells the doom of privacy as we've known it, it's hard to imagine that in the name of 'security' these types of  techniques won't be used to further enforce some version of authoritarian rule.  Indeed, most of the 20 somethings I know currently deed their privacy to the internet via Facebook and Twitter, et al, for all the world to see.  A willing generation of unwitting dupes is at hand for our brave new world. Depressing to say the least.

In case of government, conspiracy theory, or technology, do the following:
[attach=1]

@Zaxxon

Well said. Also, that is terrifying stuff.

Quote from: FrankB on June 28, 2013, 06:56:42 AM
I think that's some crazy bull, Efflux.
Of course, based on my own assumptions about how things work politically.
On top of that, I find it strange, far fetched and peculiar, how this thread went from debating PRISM all the way down to how the UK Rules the world, and even digging up old Nazi stuff.

Yeah, I know the nazi stuff is probably annoying if you are German and Hitler is always used as the ultra example tyrant but the way I see it this is an all over corruption, it's just that certain countries end up at the brunt end of it.

As for 9/11, most of the funding came from Saudi Arabia. All that stuff was of course blanked out at the commission report. Saudi Arabia, Israel and Britain work hand in hand. Terrorist slush funds were set up in the eighties by Margaret Thatcher. Remember that dodgy covered up arrangement where Saudi Arabia got the planes cheap from Tony Blair. They didn't get them cheap at all. The funds were laundered from oil gifts into various dodgy funds for such things as terrorism. Also, the Bush family are utter British Empire lackeys. Apparently George Bush senior got royal knight of the garter for his service to the British Empire after gulf war one. After 9/11 Rudy Gulliani got the same. Seems that Colin Powell and General Norman Schwarzkopf are the same. I can't see reason to see why it's not true. I don't see any debunking of it and it's been standard British practice for centuries. This is completely unlawful under the US constitution.

As for Britain running the world. The City Of London absolutely runs the world financial system. It also runs all of international law. Both these things are absolutely modeled from the British Empire system. This is why the EU are bringing in bail ins where the banks will charge levys on deposits (which you'll be paying for) but not in City of London or Wall Street because they run the show and will be able to easily do a Cyprus on any European country with these totally fascist laws in place. It is absolute pure fascism that Mussolini couldn't have dreamt of. Mussolini bailed out banks by the way.

You ain't seen anything yet in the invasion of privacy either. Smart Meters? The UK government has secretly put in a law that disallows power companies from removing smart meters if customers request it. This is after the public smokescreen of the roll out being delayed. So why is the government so into this? It's not so much the power companies. It's because the smart meters will allow absolute tracking of everything you are doing in your own home. Literally they will know what's in your fridge because even your food will have chips on the packaging that the smart meter can track. These chips are already in stuff. All conspiracy theory? It's happening now. There is no theory.

Zbigniew Brzezinski (master global strategist):

"Shortly, the public will be unable to reason or think for themselves. They'll only be able to parrot the information they've been given on the previous night's news."

It seems we are already past that. People can't think at all.

Anyone here read "Der Spiegel"? ;)

Personally, I think its a little funny. Europe's left worked so hard to help get Obama elected, and this kind of stuff is your reward.

Because you know, as much competition and jokes and insults as there are, Americans (generally speaking) think highly of Europeans. So when America saw so many europeans cheering and praising then Senator Obama, well I am sure it had some effect.
I remember that the leftist press couldn't show Germans cheering for Obama enough. They showed that stuff like ten times a day for the entire election.

Im not saying that Romney would have been any different. Im saying thats my point. Frankly, I don't know who I disliked more in the election.
But at least with Romney, we pretty much knew what we would be getting. hmmmm. Actually, Obama turned out to be nearly exactly what his detractors said he would be.


http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/MoveOn_Obama_Poster_YesWeDi.gif

HAHHAHH AHHAHH AHA AHHA AHAHAHA AHAh Ahhhhhh  :-\   ;) Oh well, I guess were all in the same sinking boat now.

OK sorry, just needed to share some of my despair. At this point, as a protestant, I would almost rather have to deal with a Pope, rather than these hypocrites in DC.
But heres a little comic relief to lighten the mood. (Probably not)

National security advisor: "Good morning Mr. President"

POTUS: morning, Tom. Whats in the brief today?"

NSA: "Well Sir, The enemy is still trying to kill us"

POTUS: "Thats to bad. Anything interesting?"

NSA: "Well yes Sir. There is. It turns out (Insert your name here) was having phone sex with (insert name of loved one here), and he got her to send him some nudes!"

POTUS: HAHHA ahhh thats great. Nice job.
"But thats it?"

NSA: Yes Sir, when we collect billions of emails it takes forever to sort through it all. Anyway, we don't know what we are looking for. I mean, if we did, we would have stopped Benghazi and Boston, right?

POTUS: "Oh H haha ha. Thats true Tom."
Well keep up the good work now.

NSA: "Will do Sir."

(There is no smily face of a suicide to use, so Ill just use this one  :-\)

Quote from: TheBadger on July 01, 2013, 05:43:17 AM
Anyone here read "Der Spiegel"? ;)

Personally, I think its a little funny. Europe's left worked so hard to help get Obama elected, and this kind of stuff is your reward.

Bush jr. claimed he installed it 8 years ago. Was in the news today here.
I doubt he even did that.
However, that's irrelevant.

More likely to me the NSA started it and reported it to Bush who had no other choice than to sign it off.
Organisations like NSA, CIA are totally independant of politics.
Whoever the president is, these organisations sail their own course and the presidents can only watch.
The president has no power, but is only the "face" of the leader to the outside world.

These states (NSA, CIA etc.) within the states (United States) are totally autonomous, disconnected from politics and constitional laws.
That's a fact.
Simply because PRISM breaks many constitutional and other laws and presidents sing the song along.

It is anything but hard to see how these organisations are positioned above politics, the president, the law.
They serve other parties and that's where it touches with Efflux sometimes insane stories, but there's definitely a core of plausibility in it.

The fact that today's news reported that Microsoft was in it since 2007, first, and many others followed later in return for access to all the data.
This data contains information on (foreign) competitors so they can use this secretly acquired information to their own good by manipulating stock markets, speculations, adjusting roadmaps etc. etc.
This interplay between NSA and these big corporations is a summum of synergy. Both parties flourish under these collaborations.
NSA gets massive amounts of personal information through the corporations and in return the corporations can get their hands on competitors IP, plans, weak points etc.
So it's also a macro-economical advantage to have such a system and definitely explains why for example Intel always seems to be two steps ahead of AMD and others.
You can google for this example.

So if you're keen on a totalitary fascistic state then PRISM is your ultimate wet dream.

The PRISM disclosure makes it once again crystal clear that there's a corporate government above the visible government (US president and the entire circus surrounding it) who are actually pulling the strings and make the calls.

Quote
Im not saying that Romney would have been any different. Im saying thats my point. Frankly, I don't know who I disliked more in the election.
But at least with Romney, we pretty much knew what we would be getting. hmmmm. Actually, Obama turned out to be nearly exactly what his detractors said he would be.

In these matters it makes no difference whether there's a democrat or republican as president.
Nor will it make any difference of what to expect.
All these presidents are equally thrustworthy when it comes to these matters, simply because they don't make the calls.

QuoteBush jr. claimed he installed it 8 years ago. Was in the news today here.
I doubt he even did that.
However, that's irrelevant.

No, not irrelevant. If its true than its a valid point, I think. But the difference of course would be that everyone in Europe hated "W". Obama was supposed to be the messiah. Obama ran on the promise that he was not going to allow anything like PRISM. He said so him self. Please do not let your self make exceptions or excuses for anyone. We cannot fight the past, only what it here in front of us now. Obama promised what he promised. He broke his word. I say he lied.
As for Bush, as I said. The US has the largest prison system in the world. There is room for everyone involved in these treasons.

On the dates, I don't know. The last report I heard on the topic was that "PRISM" started in the last year of the Bush term. And that Obama fully implemented it. But there were other programs already fully up and running. Its not clear to me which program does what. Just that PRISM is the one that comes into our homes and steals our privet moments/conversations/data, regardless of if we are the "enemy" or not.

But that is another huge part of the problem. There are too many of these damn programs, and no one seems to be accountable.

T-U,
I dont agree or disagree with what your saying about who is really in charge. I think the fact that we cannot be sure anymore is its self the real point. This has to change.

The fact that we have "secret" interpretations of laws, is the same as having secret laws. Not to be confused with secret"s" laws.
If the government has implemented and is enforcing secret laws, this is treason. It is tantamount to a coup d'état. And if so, then all this talk of revolution everywhere becomes very real and very frightening. I think that for many out there, it is not just talk anymore.

Now in an attempt to be fair, I want to share something I just found on the net. But I warn you, it is terrible, and will make any normal person sick!

While surfing around following links to where ever they lead, as I like to do, I found two links in particular that absolutely horrified me.
I saw last night real video of Syrian rebels cutting off the heads of a Catholic priest, and two other people who were with the priest. Simply because they were not Muslim.
They used kitchen knives like you would find in a farm house where the farmer prepares his own meat. There were many people there, all cheering for the killing. And this is why I could care less about the Syrian revolution. It is not, and never was going to be, a revolution for the better.

I won't post the link to the video, but I will post the link to the story. From there you can view the video if you need to.
I think its important to remember what all these wars and spy programs are about, as we continue to debate them.

WARNING WARNING WARNING
This link will lead to another link. It is not appropriate for younger viewers. Its deeply and profoundly disturbing. It is real. Please do not watch it if you cannot handle seeing things like this. And frankly no one should be able too. I'm sick from it.
I am not a Catholic.
http://catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=51537
The link is near the bottom. please do not view it if, based on the description, you know you cannot handle it. Please do not shoot the messenger.
The link shows us who are enemy really is. The only question is, can we fight them without fighting our selves? Can we win the wars without loosing our selves? PRISM makes me afraid the answer is no. And this is whats got me so upset and afraid. I am not afraid of dying in some war or attack. I am afraid of dying for the wrong reasons. Of being stabbed in the back.


I will  tell you, that after seeing this video, that I would absolutely hate all Muslims, if not for whats happening in Egypt and Turkey right now. If there were not so many young people in those two countries fighting islamic fundamentalism, I would hate them all. I would want Islam wiped from the earth forever.
I can also say I'm really not friendly to the ideas of 911 "truthers". I think what happened on 911 was just what we saw, and were told it was. Mass murder by Islamic fundamentalists.
I think the "911 truth" movement is the same as the terrorists, is the same as PRISM. Its just all a bunch of shit from hell, here to break everything worth loving.

Now lastly, I just want to say, that Americans killing Muslim children with bombs meant for enemy fighters is horrific. I do not defend it. But I cannot except that intent does not mater. Intent does mater.
I do not believe that it is the intent of my country to kill children when it happens. But it is the intent and goal of Muslim fundamentalists to kill everyone.

The one exception I am aware of, is the boy we were talking about on page one of this thread. I believe that was a deliberate murder of a child for reasons unknown. The boy was a Muslim, and I truly do want justice for him.

Im sorry to have brought that video to the discussion. But I believe it is fundamental to the discussion we, and everyone else on the planet, are having now.

Huxley in his book "brave new world" took the Augustinian track, that Truth is best hidden in a sea of facts. A bottomless pit of meaningless information. We are truly in danger now, and from every side. Everyone is fighting with facts, but no one cares what the truth is.
Something will have to give soon. Or it really is going to fall apart. And unlike some, I do not see any hope at all, that whatever replaces what we have now (system) will be better. History shows us clearly, that it nearly always gets worse. The french revolution did not make the french free, only insane. Communism did not liberate the serfs, only brought them a worse cage. Post Modernism did set us free form Modernism, but then it tricked us into thinking we were gods.

There is not much hope.

This is the biggest problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRkFDcX_72c

There are several videos by this guy of this sort of thing. He should not be able to find anyone that can't reply to those questions properly and in connection with who this real enemy was and still is. It's no accident those Americans are so ignorant. The Tavistock Institute in Britain has been working on that since the 50s. Eventually, as those Americans keep blindly supporting the US governments actions, the US will use nuclear weapons. This will happen when they realise they have no hope miltarily of taking on the rest of the world when Russia and China have had enough. After the US uses nuclear weapons there will be an immediate full scale nuclear response to the US. That's the plan or at least this is how crisis engineering of the public works. This is more Tavistock stuff.  You constantly create shock and crisis within a population. There is no stability and sense of future. Notice all the endless armageddon, dystopian zombie type movies. This is all manufuctured straight out of physocological warfare manuals. It's been going on since the 60s. The absolute reigning experts at this kind of mind control are the British. That's why Americans don't know that Britain is still an Empire. The British Crown Corporation owns vast areas of Canada and Austalia just for starters. They are worth hundreds of trillions. It's a huge Empire. They just don't use that word anymore. Tactics had to change after World War Two because Roosevelt had it in for the Brtish Empire and they were in trouble until their lackery Truman was put in and he let off the nukes in Japan - not necessary to win that war but absolutely necessary to create the phsycological terror of high tech weapons of mass detruction. This was designed as part of the phsycological attack and cultural destruction of America that fired up big time in the 60s. Endles air raid drills in schools etc. Exactly in combination with the killing of the Kennedys and Martin Luther King. This along with a number of other factors created the disasterous Baby Boomer generation and their now even worse offspring. Stuff like  this was all written about by H G Wells a hundred years ago. The now almost complete usurpaton of Europe and end of those nation states is old hat. Planned before Hitler was even known about. Sadly the masters of control are way ahead of the people.

Every US president is authorised by the Council On Foreign Relations. This is an arm of the Royal Institute Of International Affairs. They have a European equivalent now as well. This is Why Obama will do anything Cameron tells him to do and why Bush did the same with Blair.

All America has to do is reinstate Glass Stegall and go back to it's constitutional credit system. That would smash the Empire apart. That is exactly what the American Revolution was about and it's why those Americans in that video have been brainwashed to total ignorance because otherwise the Empire would instantly financially implode.

QuoteThis is the biggest problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRkFDcX_72c

OK, I'll give you that it is pretty sad. And yes, stuff like that is at the heart of the problem.

But to be fair, I have been in front of a camera unexpectedly. And I can tell you that for me I didn't like the feeling. An ambush interview is not really a fair way to gage someones knowledge of any subject. All that guy was doing is the old 1812 joke... When was the war of 1812? Ummm, ahhhh, 1492?

Its a good rhetorical video, but I think it is not a legitimate argument.

But to be fair again, your still right. Everyone knows our education system is completely broken. test scores and such show no doubt. American history is not even a focus anymore. Its very very sad.

These days nothing is taught to children about such things as constitution etc. It's the same in the UK. There used to be lessons of similar such stuff. Of course this is entirely deliberate. They also don't teach anything about money because if they did, the system would be entirely different.

History is another thing. Possibly the most important. The lack of peoples knowledge about any history is mindboggling.

Last post on this from me, due to the fact that nothing is going to get fixed, and no one really gives a shit. Not really anyway, not here in the US.
But, here it goes...

On page one of this thread I said that the boy who was killed was not with his father. I read this weekend that he was in fact with his father. The article also claims the boy was simpatico with his dad. I am not sure which of the versions of the story are true. But I don't care. CHILDREN SHOULD NOT BE TARGETED IN WAR!!!
A special forces fast team should have been sent in to capture the child! He should have been brought back and deprogramed. Im not really concerned about the old man. He was a traitor and deserved what he got. I am very concerned about the moral cowards in the white house though.

Anyway, since its not going to end for at least 100 years. And no one will do what is necessary to win the war now, or end the spy program and protect liberty.
Please, everyone, lube up! Because we are all going to get fucked now. And its going to hurt.

[attachimg=1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mPZlysCAm0 from 2011. They say it them selves, and then they still cover for him. Its completely insane.

Quote from: TheBadger on June 08, 2013, 06:36:00 AM

QuoteIs it a positive development?

Do you really think that this stuff is not going to be used against you? Why? because your not important enough?

This all goes back to something Julian Assange said; that the information is all collected, but not viewed, until someone becomes "interesting" to the government.  It is at that point, that they will pull the information out, going back years, and use all of it to either silence a dissenter, or to otherwise render inert a potential political liability.  So, in the real sense, most people are not important enough to be spied upon, but the system is already in place to take to take advantage of collected information to be used against them should they ever become "important" or a nuisance.

Quote
...information is all collected, but not viewed, until someone becomes "interesting" to the government... 

Quote
...So, in the real sense, most people are not important enough to be spied upon...

Who decides something is "interesting" or that certain people are "important"?  If a chief investigator in the NSA makes decisions like that about someone with a foreign-sounding name, well, that's one thing.  But what about a trusted computer operator in the NSA Data Center in Utah who's worried his wife is unfaithful?  Or the administrative assistant in the same center with elevated system privileges who's got an axe to grind with her next door neighbor?   Or the bored NSA investigator who really wants to know about sex habits of the rich and famous?

And I won't even get started on politicians who grant themselves access to these facilities to get dirt on their political opponents.

A common argument is that, even if every call in the US was archived, it would be impossible to go back and listen to each one.  That would be technically true if humans were listening to those calls.  But calls are stored as audio files which super-computers can scan in a fraction of a second, looking for key words and phrases. Given the massive capabilities of today's mainframe computers, it's possible to scan 10,000 hours of calls in less than a minute. 

There's a huge potential for mischief here

The best thing for anyone to do, speaking for mostly the US as I do not know much about other countries is join a Free State Project or some type of Agorist Community, otherwise you will fall along with the system. I am leaving soon but I will not say here openly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMJ3gYsnOHM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9ZvwPmjJu4

The whole point here is that you're innocent until proven guilty. That's a mainstay right in the US and all British Commonwealth countries. Maybe so in other countries as well but it's not EU policy. There has to be probable cause for anybody to investigate you or collect data. In the UK and in fact in the EU, you can demand any info that is kept about you be revealed. This is absolute law and if any info connected with you whatsoever is kept with no due cause that you are doing anything unlawful then it has to be scrapped (at least this part is definitely the case in the UK). That's the theory anyway. Interestingly in the US there is no such law (although obviously it doesn't quite comply with the US constitution) so Google etc can collect anything they want and they refuse to comply with EU law because they say they work outside EU Jurisdiction. Well then we should stop using Google. I use the mail still but I might ditch it. I don't see them refusing to comply with Chinese laws.  We  can actually function normally without using Google or these big internet corporations. There are alternatives. The US government can keep secret information about anyone including outside the US.

Politicians say if you've nothing to hide then what's the problem. That's what all tyrannies say. If they have nothing to hide then why can't we see everything they are doing?

The UK government is using the argument that there are laws in place to secure what is happening to data. Laws they create. The whole point is that the law doesn't allow any data to be stored unless probable cause is present. This is the fundamental protection.

About those videos.

The one with the guy who pulls the gun. Tax collectors are being armed and moving towards literally swat teaming your house and making inventory of all your property value. Very similar to what happened to Jews in Nazi Germans.

The other one about the march in Britain. What the media never mentioned at the time was that the march was largely about the gun issue not just fox hunting. Keep watching the BBC to not have a clue about anything. First thing in the UK is that the BBC should be shut down. It's a total propoganda machine. They have even covered up massive paedophilia. This by the way, is common British establishment tactics to blackmail people. Jimmy Saville? Best mates with Margaret Thatcher and Prince Charles. Ted Heath (ex British prime minister) was a paedophile. Jimmy Saville supplied these people with children. Ted Heath got us into the EU in the first place via the usual lies.

Most people have no concept of the total evil of these people.

It is now apparently a crime to stand up for the US contitution. Of course Washington DC has nothing to do with America. It's basicaly Empire property that's why Kokesh is commiting sedition. There is no United States Of America anymore. That's long gone. The aim is to break America down into balkanised regions. This is of course once again classic British Empire policy and it's how they started off WW1:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/activist-adam-kokesh-reportedly-arrested-in-herndon/2013/07/10/73dbc8c2-e943-11e2-8f22-de4bd2a2bd39_story.html

Seems like it never ends...................


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/11/snowden_leak_shows_microsoft_added_outlookencryption_backdoor_for_feds/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/11/snowden_leak_shows_microsoft_added_outlookencryption_backdoor_for_feds/)

I use Linux and in fact this is one of the reasons. Microsoft are a dire company. The Gates family are eugeniscists. That's why they fit into the stablishment perfectly. Also, IBM handled the Nazi's collecting of info on jews etc. Don't you get the picture here? Why is Windows so unsecure? I've never had a virsus in probably 5 years. No need to security software on Linux. It's too hard to break into a Linux system. Only hole is what you're doing in the browser but you can choose what you're doing there.

This PRISM thing is just the tip of the iceberg, perhaps even the very grain of ice on top.

Imagine the implication if the following growing suspicions seems true:

1) Germany, among other countries, has requested 700 of their 3600 tons of gold to be sent back to Germany from Fort Knox.
The FED said it wasn't possible until 2020. Why? It's in a vault, open it, carry it out and put it on a plane/ship. Done.
Why 2020? Why 7 years? What's so urgent to stall this?

In turn Germany became suspicious and sent a big team of diplomats and officials to Fort Knox and requested an audit for their gold.
The audit was denied.
Next day they attempted again, using diplomatic force. They got to see only 6 bars of gold which were told to be theirs.
They weren't allowed to touch or inspect it and above all, they were refused access by all means to the vault of the FED.
Why?

2) China, India, Australia and other countries are buying gold, from all over the world. They are trying to convert their currencies into gold, seemingly reverting to pre-40's situation. Why?

3) Hussein wanted to use the Euro for his oil instead of the petro-dollar.
Assad wants to get rid of the petro-dollar and set up an alternative arabic coin together with Iran.
Khadaffi wanted an africa coin so he didn't had to use dollars.

The whole world economy is based on petro-dollars which you need to buy/use to do business/trade.

USA is doing nothing but defending their dollar at ALL cost.

Why?

The growing suspicions are:

1) the end of the dollar as dominant currency is reaching it's end. (finally, yeah!)

2) ...that the FED has ZERO gold.

We all know the petro-dollar is a scam and so is the whole financial system.
In this system all the gold of each country is covered by bonds which is just a piece of paper from the USA stating "we owe you this amount of gold covering for so many dollars".
But what if it turns out that everybody's who's keeping their gold for over 7 decades in Fort Knox and other FED vaults and it turns out that all has gone and that for many years EVERYTHING and all the shit was for nothing???

Personally: this idea is idiotic, ludicrous, beyond belief and acceptance...but the stupid thing is: it wouldn't even surprise me!

Gold is the real money. There may be no gold at Fort Knox. The bankers even lease out non existent gold to smash down the markets. Its 100 to 1 fake gold to real gold. At least that's the official figure. Yes, the US probably has no gold. They have to buy it back to give to Germany etc.

Add Iran to that list. They are stopping trading in US dollars. The US have tried to destroy the Iranian currency and stop the people buying gold. Libya had gold as well. Masses of it. That's simply looted. The US is attempting to destroy every other country to keep the dollar up. The fed is bailing out banks monthly to 85 billion. Lots of that is going abroad, especially to Europe. The banks then park that money back at the fed and the fed pays interest to the banks. The fed doesn't want any of that money to get into the real economy or there would be massive inflation. The real economy means nothing to bankers. It's the biggest fraud in all of history and it will eventually be the biggest fall of any nation in history. The US is the biggest stooge the bankers have ever found because the population doesn't oppose any of their actions.

Essentially the fed is saving the banks via bailout and paying them to make sure you get none of that money. This will result in mass genocide. That is the policy of the US now. Much worse than Nazi Germany.

Well as an Peace loving American, looking to retire. I'll just say that the blood just ran out of my head. I think I need to sit down.

I've said this many times but all these things are about attitudes and policy of Oligarchy. This is the key word. They believe themselves to be the gods and hence everything belongs to them. Let loose, they take everything and cause wars, genocide etc. The also desire absolute monitoring of all the population for total control.

Maybe people should rewatch this movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTL7P3c3_Ag

The gold is also shifted out of the US via another scam. They trade fake paper gold and the traders don't get the real gold when trying to gain delivery. They are paid off in US paper dollars. Meanwhile the real gold is sold abroad. This brings in tidy profit for bankers while China and other countries get the real gold and Americans are left holding the paper.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/

Paul Craig Roberts gets something wrong here though. The UK is not the puppet of the US. This whole cancerous system totally eminates out of the old British Empire which absolutely still exists through the banking system.

The collapse of the US dollar will be the biggest single event in human history, and its impact will completely rearrange the power and economic bases of the entire planet.

There's a little known movie from 1981 called Rollover that plays out eerily like events going on in the world today.  You can contrast the end of that movie almost exactly like the simultaneous unrest in the world today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPYLJoq_40Y

I'm actually not sure that it will suddenly collapse because that would wake people up or the people wake up then they collapse the system to stop the wake up. They will attempt to collapse the system to save themselves or go to war. I think it will be a slow wind down but it effects the rest of the world.

This sort of thing is almost daily now:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2365940/City-rocked-new-scandal-bond-rigging-probe.html

Not one banker has been prosecuted for anything since the collapse started.

Quote from: efflux on July 17, 2013, 11:38:54 PM
Not one banker has been prosecuted for anything since the collapse started.

Yeah, that's not going to happen.  As bad as that is, it's one of the lesser crimes either committed by or permitted by, government. 

Mark Carney is a dolt, and has left Canada with an enormous housing bubble.  Average house price in Calgary right now: $500,000.  In 2006 you could have bought an average, single family home for about $160,000.  I suppose this is why all paper currencies go to zero.  Britain can have him, although they're even worse off.  Canada was at least forced into austerity in the 90's, which has helped take a lot of the strain most countries are going through.  But now, debt and inflation are going into hyperdrive again.  They keep telling us to stop borrowing and going into debt, even though the government has the necessary tools to keep people from going into debt; raise interest rates.  Of course, that would collapse the ponzi scheme.

I don't know the shape of things to come, nor do I know how it all will play out.  But I do know, things will get a whole lot worse, before they get better.  Take all the talk of "green shoots" and economic recovery with several grains of salt and a healthy dose of skepticism.

Just when I thought I was out...

QuotePersonally: this idea is idiotic, ludicrous, beyond belief and acceptance...but the stupid thing is: it wouldn't even surprise me!

Agreed. At this point if all the members my government burst open and winged devils came flying out, I would just shrug. Can't tell you how sad it makes me that I am able to say something like that.
The worst part is that each political party really believes that its better than the other. But we know now that destroying the world is a team sport. Given all we now know about the last 10 years, who did more damage to the liberty of free people? Bush or Obama?
Its a trick question, their the same person. Anyone who dose not see that is a professional shit eater.

Though personally I think Bush would make better company to have a beer with while watching Rome burn.

QuoteBut I do know, things will get a whole lot worse, before they get better.

And I pray no one falls for Nitche's bull shit "what ever does not kill you makes you stronger".
No! It just leaves you broken and crippled, and ruined. And wishing you had died while you still had a little dignity and honor.
Never forget that Nitche was not a hypocrite. He practiced what he preached. And he died of syphilis.

Quote from: TheBadger on July 18, 2013, 02:24:54 AM

...who did more damage to the liberty of free people? Bush or Obama?

Its a trick question, their the same person. Anyone who dose not see that is a professional shit eater.

I remember me telling you this and it seems you have started to accept that Bush vs Obama makes little sense and that it doesn't matter who you vote for, because they don't call the shots for real.

Hell, look at what Jimmy Carter said yesterday, that the democratic system in the US is failing and is a fake one.
And right he is. It's a 2 party system, how democratic can that be if people basically only have two choices.
Of course there are other players, but they miss sponsors and thus money to get their voice heared, which in the end means it's always 1 of these 2 who call the shots in name of the public, but as a matter of fact are only doing what they're being told and paid (lobby) for by corporations. Both parties are puppets of the "corporatocracy".

I was quite surprised to see that from an alive ex-USA president.

Yesterday I spoke a bit with somebody about this and she said she saw the problems too, but was wondering in what kind of system of world people would not be "corrupted" or not abusing their position for their own good.
An answer, not necessarily a solution, is a total communistic system where there's no room for personal development and no possibility for people to abuse their position, since every aspect of their job and life is spelled out for them AND heavily controlled.

Makes one wonder; is the world we know today, where we finally see evidently that corporations are calling the shots and increasingly deciding about more and more aspects of your daily life, is going to really differ from a communistic like system? How does PRISM fit in this?

If all the tin-foil dudes, as we call them so lovely and respectfully, are right then we're progressing towards a new hybrid society of corporate communism.

It's for a reason many sci-fi movies use these scenario's, because the writers observe this too and are being inspired by how the excesses of the current system may look like eventually.
It turns out PRISM wasn't sci-fi at all.
I'm curious to see how much reality catches up with sci-fi movies in the coming years/decades.

T-U,

I cant agree with that last post. Im not saying the problem is that we have two parties here. Im saying that the problem is they lie. Bush was not a Conservative, and Obama is not a Liberal. In order to be a classic american Liberal or Conservative, you have to believe in and live by the constitution.


I loath the european parliamentary system. I think it stinks. A coalition government? Screw that. One government is enough for me.
Our two party system would be perfect if the people in it were doing what they were supposed to do, namely defend and promote the constitution.
All of Americas problems at home and abroad are because they don't live by the constitution. Their mostly traders or thieves. Their all liars.

Communism, fascism, anarchy? I dont want any of this. Im done playing the "what hurts less" game. Does it hurt more to get kicked in the left nut or the right nut?
Im done with this shit. Im going radical.
By the way, radical means to return to ones roots. I am not saying anything about becoming violent
However, I would do violence against a communist government in my country, I would fight that one. fascism too if it gets much worse than it is now.

I love capitalism, just not the version we have, which is not real capitalism. That last part I agree with you about (not every detail, but the over riding idea that its broken). The free market, when its really free, and governed by reasonable moral laws like true weights and measures, honesty in advertising among others. And where all laws are applied evenly to all participants, really works great. But thats not what happens as you and others, and I have said.

Martin, I was always against Bush, I was just against him less than the dems. Because my beliefs allow me to choose the lesser evil. THe problem is that the government arguments around PRISM (and a number of other issues) have shown me their the same evil. They were able to hide it from me for a long time by playing on my personal feelings and passions. Not any more.
Now I want to be the one to kick a politician in the balls!  ;D

One last thing I should put out here. You keep bringing up democracy. I think we have different ideas about this. The democratic and republican parties are supposed to represent American ideas about democracy. We are a constitutional republic, not a democracy. DEmocracy is a part of our system from the beginning, but it is not the same as modern ideas about democracy. I am much less concerned about democracy than I am the constitution and the bill of rights.  Those two things mean much more to me than my one vote.

Your idea about adding more parties and voices would just make it harder for me to see who my enemies are. And add more lies to the problem.

I'm not bringing up democracy everytime. You're talking about Bush/Obama everytime in which I respond to in terms of that they are both democratically chosen in a democratically corrupt/broken system :)
At least, I feel I'm not bringing it up, but rather responding to you.

Quote
Your idea about adding more parties and voices would just make it harder for me to see who my enemies are. And add more lies to the problem.

I find this a curious remark.
Especially the "enemies" phrase which is definitely not unique to you, but in our experience here quite commonly used by Americans in arguments.
Why does it have to be so black and white? Yes it makes it more easy.
It tastes similar to the "with us or against us" mentality we Europeans often complain about when talking about USA.
It's their way, or the highway. Also black and white.
I know common enemies psychology works, but I don't think it really works for you when reading this and other topics? Yet you do use it.
Therefore I found it a bit surprising to read. No offense of course :)

The way we see it here is that it is SO black and white that dems and reps always have complete opposite programms.
Here, but that's how we feel it, we have more "choice" (I won't take the disfunctioning democracy into account here this time) because with more parties there's more chance there's a party which more precisely stands for your ideas and interests.
We think that a 2 party system is very limiting, because we think it's always choosing the lesser evil since neither of the 2 can offer you what you are looking for. Especially with such strong opposites.

Thats not what I was saying. I was saying adding more mess to a mess, just makes a bigger mess.

Why do you think new parties would be more honest? politics is politics. It would just be liars by a new name.
The two parties have to be fixed before anything else is added. And if we fix them, then their wont be much of a need for more big parties.

I know historically in the US 3rd parties manage to survive only as long as the problem they formed to solve lingers. Once the issue/problem is resolved they fall away on their own. Or they are told no by the people and they fall away.
Traditionally what happens is if a 3rd voice gains majority appeal (with-in) one of the parties, than that voice will come to dominate the party, it effectively means our two party system is unlimited. But the problem is it can happen very slowly. Much slower than the people with a issue often like. But in the last 20 years it has been happing faster and faster.
Progressivism and libertarianism are an example, then there is the green movement just to name 3. All of which are finding their place in the parties. They are called a caucus here.



I am aware of your love for the EU Martin, and over all dislike of the US, or at least the US government (some of that dislike i share right now). But all I can tell you is there are not many people in the US who want to be like Europe. Somethings some people want, and try to do, like one nation or another in Europe.
But no one really wants us to change to be more like Any country in the EU.

There are 300 million people here, and most of them came from Europe. How many try to get back? Not many. Yet we still take in a large number of Europeans every year despite our current political and economic mess. I think that says a lot.
The region I live in is mostly people of German, norwegian and Scandinavian decent. And they are rather happy not returning to the mother lands ;)

The solution to Americas problem are not in following Europe, of that I am sure. And I am also sure if the American people can force a fix to our current problems, we will be back on top in no time.
One way or another we will have to face all of the issues in this conversation and all the others, here in the US.
The trick is fixing things without bloodshed or chaos. But who knows? Bloodshed may happen.

Our system is fine, the problem is the people running it. And that I believe can be fixed. However, Europe's problems are another story. You have all of the parties you could ever have room for, and there is still tons of unhappiness and injustice, poverty, violence and general distrust of those governments. which is why so many still come here.
Granted its a smaller number than the 50-70s. But still a lot of people.

I except your critique of the American government (even the American people a bit), but your pride for the EU perplexes me.

*Edit
when I said enemies in my last post. I meant anyone trying to undermine/take away my liberty. Or any political leader who lies to me. I view those people as more dangerous than Al Qaeda. So yes, my enemies.
And no, there is no grey area. I don't care what peoples reasons are for wanting to take away liberty.

The American system is the only system or at least the best we know of. Americans haven't stuck with it. That's the problem. What amazes me about Europe is the continual acceptance of tyranny after tyranny. Choosing to give up your national currency was the biggest disaster. There is no France, no Germany or any of these countries any more. They do not exist and you won't be allowed to even fly those flags. If you think this is over the top, it's in the Lisbon Treaty. The intention is to destroy those national cultures. The destruction of the different languages is one of their biggest goals because each countries different language defines the culture more than anything.

Humanity does not need Government anymore. We should be past this and focus on Voluntarianism and give up the idea that we need a monopoly of force, fraud and coercion, AKA Government. There are already Universal Golden Rules that we were taught as Children and from Religion that would serve well in a Stateless Society. Do not harm others, share, do not steel and so on. Somehow, all Governments have forgot this but then it would not be Government, would it? The Marketplace of ideas, localization and privatization is what is essential as well. The very idea that we should be controlling and manipulating others has to die.

I don't think we are at a stage where no government can work because we need people to represent what we want done on a larger scale. The idea of no states is very dangerous at the moment because that is exactly what the elites want. Those state governments are still to some degree representative of the people. Global corporations aren't. We need national governments to cooperate and not be cooperating through private corporations which is exactly what the UN and various banking corporations such as the IMF are. People from different countries have different cultures and that needs different representation. The globalists want people all amalgameted into some kind of global culture that they control. Unfortunately a lot of culture is totally controlled by people at the top. Just look at music as an example.

It's not necessarily the systems of government we have, it's the people in there. The US is the best example. Nothing wrong with that system of government if the people were correct. The people currently in government in most countries are largely psychopathic and do what benefits them which is to act as banking puppets. There is a serious lack of judging these people's charactor. It's obvious some of these leaders are totally unsuitable so why do we keep voting for them.

"The homeless are what you step over when you come out of the opera."

- The "Right Honourable" Sir George Young

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_George_Young,_6th_Baronet

Why is this guy still in politics with comments like that? Maybe it was a joke. I don't know but who makes jokes like that? People really do deserve what's coming to them.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

So how is everyone enjoying their shit sandwich? MMMMmmmm is good, yes?
Almost as good as the butt hurt?

Just remember that we discussed petroleum jelly at the beginning of this thread. Most stores will sell it too you. Don't be embarrassed or ashamed to plop that jar down on the table, look the sales clerk directly in the eye and declare with a loud bold voice "LET THE BUTT HURT BEGIN!".
Its perfectly normal to have a politician or two (with a side of army general) lodged deeply in your back side. No judgements here on that stuff. Liberty people, personal liberty!
If any one gives you any trouble about the people who have taken up residence in your bum, you just call the ACLU! ITS YOUR ABSOLUTE HUMAN RIGHT, to bend over and take it!
And if anyone  says anything upsetting about the fact that one of the people up your ass is a black man, well you know who to call. You just call the reverend Jesse Jackson, or Al sharpton! The'll make everything better. They always make everything better.


Ok, Im done! No really thats the last of it for me, I really got it out of my system now. REally!... Probably.
But Im not going to promise to stop posting images and gifs I think are funny. Thats just too much to ask of me.

More......................


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data)

Quote from: yossam on August 01, 2013, 04:28:16 PM
More......................


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data)

In Soviet Amerika, internet browses you.

Quote from: efflux on July 18, 2013, 09:34:43 PM
I don't think we are at a stage where no government can work because we need people to represent what we want done on a larger scale. The idea of no states is very dangerous at the moment because that is exactly what the elites want. Those state governments are still to some degree representative of the people. Global corporations aren't. We need national governments to cooperate and not be cooperating through private corporations which is exactly what the UN and various banking corporations such as the IMF are. People from different countries have different cultures and that needs different representation. The globalists want people all amalgameted into some kind of global culture that they control. Unfortunately a lot of culture is totally controlled by people at the top. Just look at music as an example.

No, not yet but at some point we should be able to represent ourselves as free thinking individuals with universal morals and not have some centralized power telling us how we should live and think. No, the elites want more Government, not less. More power, they need us, our taxes and labor. I highly doubt everyone all of a sudden will become a berserk killer just because Government fades away one day. I think people want more peace then anything else. It is Government that want's war and confusion. Lets we the people and the market place of ideas and technology figure it out.

Quote from: efflux on July 18, 2013, 09:44:18 PM
It's not necessarily the systems of government we have, it's the people in there. The US is the best example. Nothing wrong with that system of government if the people were correct. The people currently in government in most countries are largely psychopathic and do what benefits them which is to act as banking puppets. There is a serious lack of judging these people's charactor. It's obvious some of these leaders are totally unsuitable so why do we keep voting for them.

But what is Government? A centralized monopoly of force, fraud and coercion. It always has been. Has any form of Government in the entire history of human kind ever worked? Government always will grow. Government itself is not correct. Why vote at all? Replace the cancer without removing it entirely. We know Anarchy works. Ireland had it for a thousand years, Iceland in the Med evil period had it. Even Tolkein's Hobbiton is a fine example of Anarchy. Tolkein himself was an Anarchist. I know it is a fantasy but I sighted historical examples. You give knowledge to the people and gently allow them to rethink there ideas that we somehow need a centralized force of men at work.