Planetside Software Forums

General => Terragen Discussion => Topic started by: Denis Sirenko on April 16, 2018, 09:27:55 AM

Title: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: Denis Sirenko on April 16, 2018, 09:27:55 AM
Hi guys! This problem has been troubling me for a while. Googling on the forum did not give me results. This weekend I left 5 computers for rendering. Two of them saved, apparently, that they have installed more ancient versions of Windows (7). Another 2 of them rebooted due to another mandatory update of Windows 10. Active hours of work do not help me, because the rendering can be performed more than 18 hours (18 hours is the maximum duration of the activity period, which can be set so that the Windows does not reboot). How do you solve this problem? Are there any links to articles or discussions that helped you solve the problem?
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: Dune on April 16, 2018, 10:19:14 AM
I would turn off automatic updates, and only update when you want it. Besides, I work with an offline machine for rendering especially, which never updates.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: Denis Sirenko on April 16, 2018, 11:02:30 AM
Dune, the point is that in Windows 10 I can not find anywhere the ability to turn off autoupdates and autoreboot. The developers themselves say that now updates are mandatory. And, really, I see that I can only "turn on/turn off" the warning window that Windows 10 will now be automatically rebooted. But if you cancel the reboot more than three times, it will still reboot (I've read about this). It is also possible to set the time interval during the day when automatic reboot is disabled. But, as I said, this setting can only cover the interval, which does not cover the whole 24 hours.

So, some artists just use older versions of Windows or other OS for work and therefore do not experience such problems?
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: digitalguru on April 16, 2018, 11:23:10 AM
Hi Dennis.

I sympathise, the auto updates behaviour in Windows 10 is appalling - if there was an alternative O/S (Linux would limit a lot of apps I can use) then I would use it.

The whole 6 hour update Window just doesn't allow for situations such as yours, where unattended renders could be stopped because of an update.

I spend a lot of time getting my system to work, and that means sometimes going off grid with drivers etc (had to find a particular LAN driver to work with Cubase for example) and I don't want Windows to stomp over that by loading what it thinks is the latest driver.

The whole recent Meltdown and Spectre fiasco, where the cure introduced more problems than the security flaw it was supposed to fix, is a good indication why it would be good to get control back in updates al la Windows 7 - where you could choose what you wanted to update and when.

My old Windows 7 machine had updates turned off and ran just fine, I only ever updated if I re-installed the O/S, and I plan to use Windows 10 that way too.

Anyway, rant over...

Use this:

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

You can always turn updates back on when you have a convenient 6 hour window where your machine is doing nothing :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: archonforest on April 16, 2018, 11:39:43 AM
or just unplug your internet cable while rendering.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: Dune on April 16, 2018, 11:39:51 AM
Ah, win 10, I didn't know that mandatory updating. I work on 7 and will continue to do so. And what if you take it offline (just unplugging the cable) when rendering? it won't find any uopdates then.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: Dune on April 16, 2018, 11:40:15 AM
You were a second ahead of me  ;)
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: archonforest on April 16, 2018, 11:45:27 AM
You were a second ahead of me  ;)

it was 8  ;D
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: WASasquatch on April 16, 2018, 01:38:25 PM
I think he may be accessing machines remotely? Someone mentioned this in another topic. Probably mistaken. I just lost a render a few days ago to a update on win10. There is a way to disable it, I've done it before. Just waking up but no believe Windows Defender must be disabled as well or it will enable updates after 30 days (maximum updates can be turned off)
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 16, 2018, 03:25:09 PM
Reading this thread, I do not feel quite as dumb as I did a month or so ago.
After the release of TG4, I stumbled through with a 4GIG unit with win10 installed. TG4 did okay as long as I did more complex renders in down time. At this time Win10 was only installing updates with administrator approval.

I asked and was told I think by Oshlyan, that yes, I could do things with 4GIG, but should probably look to the future improvments to TG features and get some more "power". I knew this was coming eventually on my own anyway, this was just confirmation.

So  at my first opportunity financially after my purchase of TG4 Creative, I got my current 16G unit with OS Win10 installed. About a week later, my old unit was somehow reset with an "update", wiping out most of my old programs. To say the least I was furious. I walked into my workroom with a blue screen message on the older unit...something like, Windows is resetting your computer. My File Explorer had folders like Removed Programs that when exe files were selected all older programs failed to open due to missing dll or other files. Even reinstalling these files only resulted in new messages about missing files. I am not a genius and was not going to track down all these files because I had no clue if  I could even place them where they belonged or if the next update would simply wipe them out again.

Then someone suggested,okay put it back on Win7 or Win8. New computer salesman sort of laughed and said Good Luck with that. I pay annually for Office Home updates so losing Office Pro bothered me some, but I got over it. (sort of)

I will now "get over it" but it is a pain to send myself stuff or download with a stick, my newer TG4 files. It was probably all crapola anyway, but it was my crapola, so I thought.

Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: digitalguru on April 16, 2018, 04:03:34 PM
Quote
About a week later, my old unit was somehow reset with an "update"

Whatever happened to your machine sound much more serious that an update. I know I rant about updates, but they should only affect Windows system files, devices drivers etc.

However just did a quick search and found this:
https://www.howtogeek.com/243581/windows-10-may-delete-your-programs-without-asking/

Is this what happened to your computer?

If it is, that's outrageous - Windows "upgades" your computer without you asking, then removes programs it thinks are incompatible.

Another reason my Windows updates are staying OFF.


Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 16, 2018, 04:22:59 PM
Quote
About a week later, my old unit was somehow reset with an "update"

Whatever happened to your machine sound much more serious that an update. I know I rant about updates, but they should only affect Windows system files, devices drivers etc.

However just did a quick search and found this:
https://www.howtogeek.com/243581/windows-10-may-delete-your-programs-without-asking/

Is this what happened to your computer?

If it is, that's outrageous - Windows "upgades" your computer without you asking, then removes programs it thinks are incompatible.

Another reason my Windows updates are staying OFF.

That is exactly what happened. And of course I did try reinstall and old TG943 still getting messages. And of course, now more than 30 days have passed since initial event.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: digitalguru on April 16, 2018, 04:48:46 PM
https://www.reactos.org/

looks like an open source operating system that can run Windows programs...

still in alpha at the moment, but might be worth looking at when Windows becomes completely unbearable!
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 16, 2018, 04:55:28 PM
I think perhaps it is because TG uses or used to involve Visual Basic or what is the other one.....duh...I had to get a Win7 codec package once before when switching XP to 7...on a third pc not even discussed yet...groan...
I even asked about this new one if it could handle games and graphics...which it does but old stuff ....still error messages.  I will muddle through as I just amuse myself with TG, but really.... Thanks!
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: WASasquatch on April 16, 2018, 11:05:20 PM
Quote
About a week later, my old unit was somehow reset with an "update"

Whatever happened to your machine sound much more serious that an update. I know I rant about updates, but they should only affect Windows system files, devices drivers etc.

However just did a quick search and found this:
https://www.howtogeek.com/243581/windows-10-may-delete-your-programs-without-asking/

Is this what happened to your computer?

If it is, that's outrageous - Windows "upgades" your computer without you asking, then removes programs it thinks are incompatible.

Another reason my Windows updates are staying OFF.

There were 2 windows 10 updates that changed the kernel, where applications that were deemed "incompatible" will be removed. It shouldn't effect personal files. I remember the exact update she is talking about. Most my applications besides base windows ones were removed. Most annoyingly Classic Start and other features that made Windows 10 more user friendly.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: Denis Sirenko on April 17, 2018, 08:04:10 AM
Digitalguru, thanks for the link, I think I'll test ShutUp10.

Archonforest, Dune, WASasquatch was right when he said that I use remote access to working computers from home. Nevertheless, that's exactly what I did yesterday: unplug the wires before leaving the office. It's like a solution, but it has its limitations.

Regarding the cases with self-reinstallation of Windows 7 on Windows 10. In the office after a week or two of fighting, two computers changed the Windows 7 to 10. The same thing happened to one of my colleagues on the home computer. This happened massively with all the ensuing problems, like the inability to use those programs that became incompatible. I can not say that I did not want to update my Windows, I usually welcome new solutions. But in the case of long rendering, this update policy just does not work. In my opinion, this is an unnecessarily aggressive policy that makes me change my attitude to Windows from the position of "completely loyal", to "they do not like me and do not respect me for something." This makes me now look around to find a more convenient solution, like MacOS.

About Reaktos - there is little skepticism about such decisions. In my opinion, there is a lack of centralization in the open solutions, which is necessary for the formulation of the ideology of a software solution. Without this, we usually get a solution which can do many things, but not very well. But I will keep the link, I have not heard about this system before.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: Denis Sirenko on April 17, 2018, 08:14:30 AM
Also the solution that I found: make animation with crops for rendering. Render, say, not the whole picture at once, but consistently several regions. At least, in the case of a system reboot, this eliminates the need to re-render everything completely. The result is then stuck together in Photoshop. Perhaps this is an obvious solution, but I still want to share.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: digitalguru on April 17, 2018, 10:18:00 AM
Quote
In the office after a week or two of fighting, two computers changed the Windows 7 to 10.

There is also a small program called Never 10 - that stops Windows 7 self upgrading to 10. Reinstall your Windows 7 and run that.

WASasquatch :
Quote
Most my applications besides base windows ones were removed.
I'm flabbergasted this has happened to you - may I ask what apps were deleted in this update?

Denis
Quote
lso the solution that I found: make animation with crops for rendering.
You shouldn't have to do this - it's your computer - make it work the way you want to...

Quote
About Reaktos - there is little skepticism about such decisions.

It's very early days for this, check out some of the apps they say can run on it (Sim City 3000!) and is no way a solution for at least a couple of years (at least), but if Microsoft continue to behave the way they are currently with Windows 10 it might incentivize the software community to come up with a viable alternative.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 17, 2018, 11:26:35 AM
Denis,
This is a SERIOUS upgrade
I lost all Microsoft Visual C+ beginning 2005 through 2015, the MSXML Parsers (5 versions) Microsoft Professional Office, Office 365 6 versions of SketchUP,  5 versions of Terragen, any software installed with a Disk or not native to MS operating system, including my virus software
In document form, it is a list 3 pages long.
I have used Windows since 1995, thinking like you did, stay loyal...and I probably still will, but I may just go offline with anything I want to keep.
I did just remember I do have either Win7 or 8 on the backup drive, but even if I do that I don't think I have all necessary files to run programs foreign to MS.

Edit afterthought: What is infuriating to me is that I had been running Win10 on said computer for at least a year, and encouraging others about it, then January 9, 2018 like a thief in the night this reset happens. :(

Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: digitalguru on April 17, 2018, 12:05:31 PM
Quote
but I may just go offline with anything I want to keep

that you have to say that about your operating system is just nuts
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 17, 2018, 12:10:50 PM
Quote
but I may just go offline with anything I want to keep

that you have to say that about your operating system is just nuts

I quite agree. I have my tgd and such files in documents, so all was not lost there. I have a Mac tablet and phone (gifts from my kids) so I have tried pretty much every system. Ages ago I even did some type of game thing for my kids, typing code into a cassette. I have no idea what I was doing, somebody showed me what to do and I did it. haha   I did some work on a Mac, just document stuff. So it isn't like I won't adapt.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: ajcgi on April 17, 2018, 02:15:31 PM
Windows 7 all the way. If I buy a new PC it will be Windows 7. Buy it without software, acquire 7, use it. That is the solution to this Windows 10 nonsense imho.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: digitalguru on April 17, 2018, 02:52:36 PM
I did try that, and I got Windows 7 up and running on my AMD - but then I realised that some features on board (LAN drivers etc) didn't have Windows 7 drivers...

I think if you want a new CPU/Motherboard, there's no other option :-(
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: ajcgi on April 17, 2018, 03:39:58 PM
 ??? Ah man, that sucks to hear. I guess you're right. Past a certain point it might be tricky.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 17, 2018, 05:13:59 PM
The problem I am having with TG 943 is the 32OCX cmd file. My unit is a 32/64 split, I think I even tried the 64bit download, not sure. Someone take a screen shot of an open TG 943 directory so I can see what I need and where it should go, should I find a download that works. Microsoft download for it just redirects me now to buy newer stuff.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: Dune on April 18, 2018, 05:08:33 AM
Quote
I think if you want a new CPU/Motherboard, there's no other option :-(

It can't be so that all hardware is dependent on Microsoft, that would be quite horrible  >:( >:( >:( :(
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: N-drju on April 18, 2018, 06:44:03 AM
How lucky I am to have never got convinced to upgrade to Windows 10...

For some reason, somehow, I managed to miss Windows 10 free update. My computer never did anything behind my back (so to say) and no new upgrades come in form of a new OS.

Denis, one "bootleg" tip that I have for you is something that I used to prevent some of my programs from updating, rebooting or connecting to the Internet... Just change the system date to three or four days in the past... :D May trick your system into thinking it's not yet a time to upgrade / update.

It worked for me many times. You won't be able to use internet (webpage security certificates) but you may fool the upgrade system.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: archonforest on April 18, 2018, 06:44:26 AM
Quote
I think if you want a new CPU/Motherboard, there's no other option :-(

It can't be so that all hardware is dependent on Microsoft, that would be quite horrible  >:( >:( >:( :(

Looks like they going towards what Apple is doing since a while. A program you want doesn't run on your current MACOS. OKay lets buy the new one...but that is not install-able because the hardware is 3 years old.. Pff... :-X
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: N-drju on April 18, 2018, 07:09:42 AM
Looks like they going towards what Apple is doing since a while. A program you want doesn't run on your current MACOS. OKay lets buy the new one...

Apple is junk to be honest. ::) I will never-ever buy myself one anymore - slow, buggy, design over functionality and mechanics. Plus what you mention - suddenly, some programs and applications stop working and that's it. My father couldn't run the browser properly on his MAC. Cleaned cookies, reset Safari nothing helped. Service verdict? You need a new OS!

Shit, new OS just to get the browser running? :o On Windows it's a browser that tunes up to your system!

Even more reason for me to think I am lucky to have what I have.

In thirteen years of my history as a sole computer owner there was only a single one program that I was unable to run again when switching computer.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: sboerner on April 18, 2018, 05:28:35 PM
Quote
Apple is junk to be honest.

News to me.  :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: N-drju on April 18, 2018, 08:05:23 PM
News to me.  :)

Hehe, guess there'll always be proponents and detractors. :D My experience with them is pretty bad. It's nice to hear though that it works alright for you.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: Seth on April 18, 2018, 08:32:41 PM
Option 1: Stop The Windows Update Service

As central as it is to the core of Windows 10, Windows Update is actually just another Windows process so it can be stopped with these simple steps:

Open the Run command (Win + R), in it type: services.msc and press enter
From the Services list which appears find the Windows Update service and open it
In ‘Startup Type’ (under the ‘General’ tab) change it to ‘Disabled’
Restart
To re-enable Windows Update simply repeat these four steps, but change the Startup Type to ‘Automatic’



Option 2: Group Policy Editor

This is a halfway house: the group policy editor will notify you about new updates without automatically installing them (how previous generations of Windows always worked) - though again security updates will still install automatically.

Note: Windows 10 Home users have to sit this one out, it is only for Windows 10 Education, Pro and Enterprise editions.

Open the Run command (Win + R), in it type: gpedit.msc and press enter
Navigate to: Computer Configuration -> Administrative Templates -> Windows Components -> Windows Update
Open this and change the Configure Automatic Updates setting to ‘2 - Notify for download and notify for install’
Open the Settings app (Win + I) and navigate to -> Update and Security -> Windows Updates. Click ‘Check for updates’ which applies the new configuration setting
Restart
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: Oshyan on April 18, 2018, 11:08:29 PM
I agree, the Win 10 auto-update policy is insane. I really cannot believe they get away with it, but I guess those (relatively few, compared to overall installations) customers who need constant uptime are also Windows Pro users in most cases, with access to the Group Policy Editor and probably already used to central administration of update policy. Those few(er) of us on "home" computers using them for serious rendering are really out of luck. However the app linked in this thread for disabling updates is probably the best solution. It's a good idea to check manually for updates once a month or so, still. But Microsoft is really making things worse for many people, who will try their best to go *without* updates like this, purely because MS refuses to allow a more flexible, more user-controlled update policy.

ReactOS is interesting but it has been in "alpha" for, uh, nearly a decade? I don't know if it will ever reach its goal, and by the time it does, it may not be compatible with the latest version(s) of Windows. Oh yes, initial release 20 years ago! And still in alpha. ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 19, 2018, 01:36:03 AM
The thing is, they warned us that even there own products would soon not have technical support. blah blah blah...But even professional users thought ...okay fine, mine is working fine and is compatible with my other stuff. I do not think they ever said....okay kids, today is the day we rip off all the bandaids.
Like Seth said, before you could choose your updates with information explaining how and what the update does.
I just might hook up the old 1GIG yet and run it offline. Then I can play slow Scrabble.....and Frogger... :o Just what one person needs, 3 computers, a tablet and a phone. Oh yes, forgot my TV is smarter than me too.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: ajcgi on April 19, 2018, 09:42:51 AM
Mate, I had to reboot my door intercom this week. :D My front door is higher tech than I am!
The group policy thingy is handy to know. Our windows 10 machines here drop connection to mapped network drives without a tweak in the policy editor.
I've worked on Linux (CentOS mainly), Windows, and Mac. I still think Linux is best for huge VFX businesses, but my favourite is Windows. At home, for my photo work I still use an iMac which I hardly update in case Apple break stuff for me. I have an iPhone which I won't update past iOS 10 as it will doubtless stop talking to my iMac, they'll have a falling out, I'll have a falling out with both.
All this OS stuff works fine so long as it's set up, left alone and nobody tries to break it.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: digitalguru on April 19, 2018, 09:48:09 AM
Quote
ReactOS is interesting but it has been in "alpha" for, uh, nearly a decade?

Oh dear, I didn't see that. You have to worry when you see they apps they display can run on their OS are Photoshop CS2 and Simcity 3000.

There really is an anti-trust thing going on here, I know people may say to migrate to Linux or Apple, but apps are limited in Linux and to some extent Apple (which is also much more proprietary in hardware - nowhere near as much bang for the buck as PCs).

Windows have upset a lot of people with the updates nonsense and telemetry privacy etc. Maybe it might provoke somebody to come up with a decent OS which can run Windows apps , but that's a massive job and then they have the might of Windows to come up against - who I'm sure will want to stomp on any one who makes in-roads on their turf.

The current solution is to make use of some apps out there that can help with turning off these features, I would hope some of these allow Windows 10 Home users to get the same level of control as Windows Pro can.

Here's a good list of apps that help:

https://www.ghacks.net/2015/08/14/comparison-of-windows-10-privacy-tools/
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: digitalguru on April 19, 2018, 09:53:08 AM
Quote
Mate, I had to reboot my door intercom this week.

Yes, it's not all bad of course - last week my toaster upgraded itself to a Breville  :)

Quote
I have an iPhone which I won't update past iOS 10

And there's the whole IPhone OS thing where the updates made the phone run slower.
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: D.A. Bentley on April 19, 2018, 03:07:23 PM
I always just use the "Pause Updates" feature before I start long renders (especially if I know they will still be rendering on Tuesday).

Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: archonforest on April 19, 2018, 06:07:25 PM
I can see the future already. You wake up and try to make a cup of coffee but the coffee machine refuse it as there are several pending updates... :o
Then you slowly pull out your hammer and... :-X



Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: Kadri on April 19, 2018, 06:55:21 PM

Not sure if i saw this here...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/leemathews/2017/07/27/criminals-hacked-a-fish-tank-to-steal-data-from-a-casino/#3c81cc4232b9
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: N-drju on April 19, 2018, 07:04:10 PM
I can see the future already. You wake up and try to make a cup of coffee but the coffee machine refuse it as there are several pending updates... :o
Then you slowly pull out your hammer and... :-X

Even more so...

"Your coffee cup is not compatible with the latest update. Coffee machine will now close." :P
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: sboerner on April 19, 2018, 07:20:45 PM
Quote
I can see the future already. You wake up and try to make a cup of coffee but the coffee machine refuse it as there are several pending updates... :o

And they tell us that these things soon will be driving our cars for us.

(Your brakes are not working right now. Please try again later.)
Title: Re: Windows 10 mandatory updates and long rendering
Post by: luvsmuzik on April 19, 2018, 08:19:38 PM
Could I please please, please, please be the one that is at the ATM when simultaneously the cameras fail, the video disintegrates, but the machine is spitting out money?