I was wondering if there were any plans to change/improve the current system used to move the camera. I think a lot of users, including me, miss the ease of setting the camera's location like you can in Terragen 0.9. I know that the exact same thing would be near impossible in Terragen 2, but maybe if you could move the camera around like you can move objects around (with the colored x,y and z arrows) it would help a little. Just a thought, perhaps some other people have some better ideas?
I would agree here. The movement on the camera, while vastly improved in TG2 - still needs something extra. An easy way for it to snap to the terrain at a set Y hieght value. Say You can enter in a text box how high the camera is off the ground and it stays locked to that height as you move it around. But some form of a tool to get the camera in one click right off the ground would be huge.
Currently I guess you could just enter the Y value in, but you run into the possiblity of being under ground. I'm really big into camera systems in Maya... so I'll give it some more thought. But I do have to say - it is alot stronger than the previous version. Now if my little mac laptop would just run faster... ;D
I really like the new camera navigation. Once you get the hotkeys down (which takes a couple seconds) its pretty easy to manover around the terrain. What do you not like about it?
Quote from: BPauba on December 23, 2006, 06:32:40 PM
I really like the new camera navigation. Once you get the hotkeys down (which takes a couple seconds) its pretty easy to manover around the terrain. What do you not like about it?
Moving long distances is kind of a pain because u have to click+drag, click+drag, click+drag over and over to get anywhere. Maybe if you could control the camera with the keyboard like you can in Terragen 0.9's 3D preview, then that would be awesome.
Ahh ok ok, I can see why that gets annoying after awhile. One thing that you have to remember with the zooming is as you get closer to the terrain the dragging becomes more precise. So that is the reason for all of the scrolling! See, I never used the 3d preview, it was not to useful to me. So did you use the arrows to move around the terrain? Kind of like a game or something? I just see the mouse being a more native tool for me other then the keyboard. Just a matter of opinion i guess :).
Quote from: BPauba on December 23, 2006, 06:40:39 PM
So did you use the arrows to move around the terrain? Kind of like a game or something?
that's how MojoWorld works for exploring planets. I didn't ever use T0.9 much, but I did use it enough to know that one could drag the camera icon around on the plan view to find new viewpoints.
...well if this thread is going to turn into a user's suggestions / wish list type thread, I'll add my tuppence worth too. :)
In the overhead viewer thingy, how about utilising two camera fov widgets. One for the 'real' camera, and a second for an explorer camera - each coloured differently. The user goes looking for a nice shot using the explorer camera, once found they press "Set Camera" and the real camera fov widget snaps to the location of the explorer camera fov widget. This would dually serve as an additional visual prompt for the user to help better inform whether they've got the camera locked-off (which currently takes some remembering), as well as also allowing them to explore the terrain in the overhead view using a mouse to move the widget around without fear of losing the location of the real camera (ideally you wouldn't want to wipe it's position before you're certain you've got the new view that you want - currently you move the overhead view's camera widget and you lose the position of where your camera last was). Naturally, the 3D preview would work in a similar way - real and explorer cameras.
Also, sort of tied into this, having five or so small buttons in the 3d preview's toolbar to store and recall a bunch of views set from the explorer camera.
The return of the rmb to position the target as in old TG would also be welcomed - or are there plans to have the target linked up to a rotation handle instead / as well as?
Lastly, the thresholds for selecting any of the positioners / movers seems to be a tad fine - I usually need several attempts before hitting the sweet spot (don't know what others' experiences are like - I'm running at 1600*1200 res so maybe that affects it some?).
Those are just some of my pet niggles should they help any in gaging usability...
:)
Quote from: Moose on December 23, 2006, 07:34:29 PM
...well if this thread is going to turn into a user's suggestions / wish list type thread, I'll add my tuppence worth too. :)
In the overhead viewer thingy, how about utilising two camera fov widgets. One for the 'real' camera, and a second for an explorer camera - each coloured differently. The user goes looking for a nice shot using the explorer camera, once found they press "Set Camera" and the real camera fov widget snaps to the location of the explorer camera fov widget. This would dually serve as an additional visual prompt for the user to help better inform whether they've got the camera locked-off (which currently takes some remembering), as well as also allowing them to explore the terrain in the overhead view using a mouse to move the widget around without fear of losing the location of the real camera (ideally you wouldn't want to wipe it's position before you're certain you've got the new view that you want - currently you move the overhead view's camera widget and you lose the position of where your camera last was). Naturally, the 3D preview would work in a similar way - real and explorer cameras.
Also, sort of tied into this, having five or so small buttons in the 3d preview's toolbar to store and recall a bunch of views set from the explorer camera.
The return of the rmb to position the target as in old TG would also be welcomed - or are there plans to have the target linked up to a rotation handle instead / as well as?
Lastly, the thresholds for selecting any of the positioners / movers seems to be a tad fine - I usually need several attempts before hitting the sweet spot (don't know what others' experiences are like - I'm running at 1600*1200 res so maybe that affects it some?).
Those are just some of my pet niggles should they help any in gaging usability...
:)
You could always just create another camera and call it your explorer camera. It won't come up in the preview as a different color, but it'll be a seperate camera :P
Nice trick - and so simple. :)
You can already see the last camera location. As long as you haven't pushed the set camera button, you can explore all you like, and then push view camera to go right back.
We do have plans to implement a top-down view and we will incorporate as many of the best parts of TG 0.9's functionality in it as we can. This will certainly include easy camera movement, height and position indication, water level indication, etc. along with object placement and other TG2-specific requirements.
- Oshyan
QuoteWe do have plans to implement a top-down view and we will incorporate as many of the best parts of TG 0.9's functionality in it as we can.
Yippee, wonderful news, I have previously grumbled about the camera movement options. I really like the fine control via the mouse. Accuracy and finesse spring to mind, but like others have remarked getting there is sooooooooooooooo painful.
One thing to be aware of is that camera movement is progressively faster the further you are from your terrain/planet. So if you want to move fast, get some altitude, then dive back down to get finer, slower movement. Using this approach I find navigation quite zippy, faster in fact than I would expect a top-down view to be.
- Oshyan
I too wanted multiple cameras, but found:
1) Creating a new camera was obscure.
I expected to find something similar to add terrain in terrain mode. (Right click on the camera group node and do a Create Other - Camera.)
2) Switching between cameras was not intuitive for me either.
The most reliable way to change your camera's preview view (to switch camera views in the 3D preview, not just the render window) is to set the camera's output to one of the render nodes. This appears to set/change the active camera in the 3D preview. I expected to double click/choose the camera node and have it be the active camera in the 3D preview.
So...
You can create multiple cameras and you can switch between them, but how to do it may not be quite what you expect.
You know I have got use to the way the camera positioning system in the tech preview works now, at first I to struggled but in time I got use to it. A top down system would be nice for fine control inside valleys and such but to be honest you can do the same with the existing camera system you just have to learn fine motor control skills.
We are going through a process of transition right now, with new methods and ways of doing things, much different then what we where use to with 0.9.43. As a result then, we have to relearn our skills and this can seem intimidating at first.
Learning some thing a new is a challenge we must accept both as individual users and as a wider community.
The top down camera/ target system used by 0.9.43 and earlier will of course be familiar to users of Vesta (Now Vesta Pro) in its Amiga 500 days, and so will be harder to use the new system.
Yes, the new system dose-have-its flaws, there are instances when zooming the camera that the terrain moves fractions of an inch at a time and can be painfully slow (Akin to watching an iceberg melt one drop at a time).
There are other issues with the camera system such as terrain edge breaking and tearing resulting in floating terrain elements and artefacts left behind (These show up as small black dots and lines on an image). To my mind the current camera system is not equipped with a collision detection system to prevent terrain mesh tearing and the camera passing through the terrain (Such systems are built into flight simulation games for this purpose, and have been so since F-15: Strike Eagle form MicroProse).
What would be nice is a "Remember Current Camera Position" option which would be a kind of book marking system for the camera.
Currant Situation:
You find a POV you like and then wish to have a population of trees: right now you have to right down the coordinates of you POV and then move the camera to find the population and then bring it to the decided POV this-dose not-work for production environments and deadlines.
Proposed Fix #1: Remember Currant Position, Return to Current Position (Note: Names Provisional)
You load your population and hit "Remember Currant Position" which sets you currant position when you move your camera this automatically changes to "Return Currant Position" if some how when you select the population (Bounding Box turns yellow) and hit "Return to Currant Position" you return to you bookmarked camera position with the population you wish to use.
Proposed Fix #2: Move Population to Current Camera Position (Note: Feature Name Provisional)
Instead of moving the camera to position 0, 0, 0 to locate and bring a population to a desired location under this schema a population is made in the normal way, and then just press "Move Population to Current Camera Position" and the selected population is automatically moved to the current POV.
Just some ideas I've been toying with for a few days now.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
Of the two proposals the second would appear to be the most practical. Noice one.
The current camera switching functionality is definitely quite limited and unintuitive. Cameras *must* be attached to a renderer to be used in the 3D preview. To switch to a camera simply open a renderer attached to it then press View Camera twice. We will be greatly improving the 3D preview and multi-camera functionality in the future which features like a drop-down list of cameras, the ability to create a new camera from the 3D preview, etc.
Currently you can actually accomplish population positioning and the like using a single camera fairly easily. What I do for example is have my set camera position, create a population, then navigate to it with the camera *without pressing the Set Camera button*. I can then move the population and, when I'm done, just press "View Camera" and it takes me right back to the original camera position. An easier alternative is simply to use the 3D preview coordinate readout and enter those values into the population position, which doesn't require any camera movement at all.
- Oshyan
Hi folk's, I'm still getting my head around this new stuff ( node's and all ). Today I found a quicker way to get around the terrain, with the terrain button active hit 'view heightfield', in the small window above you will see the camera location. Move your curser over the camera until it turns yellow, click once and you should see the red, blue and green cross hair's.
Click on blue to move North and South, click on red for East and West, once in the area you wish click outside the camera to deactivate. You can then use the hot key's and mouse to fine tune your location.
Hope you find this useful.
John.
Hey, dude, I just noticed the same thing yesterday. Really helpful to know this.
Quote from: JohnP on January 10, 2007, 01:01:18 AM
Hi folk's, I'm still getting my head around this new stuff ( node's and all ). Today I found a quicker way to get around the terrain, with the terrain button active hit 'view heightfield', in the small window above you will see the camera location. Move your curser over the camera until it turns yellow, click once and you should see the red, blue and green cross hair's.
Click on blue to move North and South, click on red for East and West, once in the area you wish click outside the camera to deactivate. You can then use the hot key's and mouse to fine tune your location.
Hope you find this useful.
John.
Thanks for that. Very useful, although I haven't found a way of undoing a camera move this way. If you explore in the preview window you can get back to the last 'Set' position by doing a 'View Camera'.
I think it would be cool if TG2 could maintain a list of the 'Set' camera positions, say the last 10 or so. I keep finding interesting views in a terrain that I want to keep but can't. A list would allow you to jump between favourites without having to write down coordinates and rotations. Unless you can already do this of course and I don't know how!
You can't currently save camera positions without creating a new camera and transferring coordinates. However we do plan to implement methods to make creation of new cameras easier, particularly from the current position (as opposed to moving your existing camera permanently to that location). A "checkpoint"/bookmark type system may also be possible.
- Oshyan
I'm a new user of TG2, after being a longtime user of the old .9, and so far, I have not been able to get the camera to move at ALL.
The position values are unlabeled, and there's no tooltip. Clicking and dragging does nothing (or so it seems), and the most intuitive method of moving a camera is gone. (That would be left clicking on the terrain overview to position camera, and right clicking for target.)
The tutorials I've been reading all assume you know enough about the camera system to have programmed it yourself, and thus make no mention of it.
I bit of help would be unbelievably appreciated.
Camera controls - accessed via Help -> mouse and key settings
whats context-click is that the target or is that depth of field?
Regards,
Will
no idea :) I've never tried it to be honest
becuase I would love depth of field!
regards,
Will
I seem to remember Oshyan saying that would be in a future release. So far as I know there's no DOF function in T2TP - you can probably do it in postwork with PS or somesuch
yea, I though it was in one shot in the Terragen 2 gallary but that could be post.
Regards,
Will
Hi,
The context click is one is for bringing up a right-click/context/contextual type menu, though it seems like the 3D Preview doesn't have one yet.
Regards,
Jo
oh, that will be cool. Helpful for placing things.
Regards,
Will
QuoteAlso I wonder if it could be possable to make a pianting tool that was kinda like the one in .9x but it would allow 3d manipulation it would be helpful for over hangs.
3D painting of overhangs would be cool in ANY terrain app! It's one of those grey areas that 's maybe best left to the terrain app rather than the renderer. I think a few people want to see overhangs in terran apps :) For that to happen with minimal pain we need to see some agreement between the renderers and the terrain app devs.
QuoteI was wondering if there were any plans to change/improve the current system used to move the camera. I think a lot of users, including me, miss the ease of setting the camera's location like you can in Terragen 0.9.
I totally agree- that's the first thing I missed in TG2.
QuoteWe do have plans to implement a top-down view and we will incorporate as many of the best parts of TG 0.9's functionality
Yipeeeee me too!! :D
monks
Hi folks, does anyone know a way of banking / rolling the camera?
Adjust the z rotation axis in the camera node.
Quote from: monks on January 16, 2007, 09:55:04 AM
QuoteI was wondering if there were any plans to change/improve the current system used to move the camera. I think a lot of users, including me, miss the ease of setting the camera's location like you can in Terragen 0.9.
I totally agree- that's the first thing I missed in TG2.
I agree too. Even after getting used to the controls, setting the camera position is still more of a struggle in T2TP than it was in TG 0.9.
Thanks for the tip njen, I was just dreaming of a shortkey or an arrow solution for banking the cam as in Mojo but your answer is helpful with TG2 as is. ;D
I also wish there was an easier way to change the roll angle of the camera in the viewport :)
*hint tint*
Quote from: Ekflagristoj on January 15, 2007, 02:45:10 PM
I'm a new user of TG2, after being a longtime user of the old .9, and so far, I have not been able to get the camera to move at ALL.
The position values are unlabeled, and there's no tooltip. Clicking and dragging does nothing (or so it seems), and the most intuitive method of moving a camera is gone. (That would be left clicking on the terrain overview to position camera, and right clicking for target.)
The tutorials I've been reading all assume you know enough about the camera system to have programmed it yourself, and thus make no mention of it.
I bit of help would be unbelievably appreciated.
I recommend reading the User Guide here on the Planetside Forums. Camera movement is covered early on: http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?board=12.0;sort=subject
- Oshyan
Found an answer to my "intuitive banking the cam" request: just discovered that below the preview there is an "FO" button meaning free orbit that allows with Alt + LMB to move the scene intuitively in every direction then to bank the camera as you feel ;D Thanks Planetside Team, you did a great job, I only had to look better at the interface ;)
Well I must be totally brain dead but I only discovered this today. Double clicking on the top down view of the terrain allows one to resize that lil display window and also, once in that mode one can click on the camera and move it willy-nilly where ever one's lil heart desires. Also one can doom in for finer positioning...TooFrigginCool....dunno why I never found this before and if it was posted anywhere it just went right over my newbie head....LOL...hope this helps someone else as clued out as me in their navigations of TG2TP
This is new, Bobby.
Quote from: bobbystahr on September 12, 2007, 01:07:44 PM
Well I must be totally brain dead but I only discovered this today. Double clicking on the top down view of the terrain allows one to resize that lil display window and also, once in that mode one can click on the camera and move it willy-nilly where ever one's lil heart desires. Also one can doom in for finer positioning...TooFrigginCool....dunno why I never found this before and if it was posted anywhere it just went right over my newbie head....LOL...hope this helps someone else as clued out as me in their navigations of TG2TP
This functionality has been available since the initial TG2 TP 1.8.64.0 late last year as far as I know. It is a fairly clunky method since you cannot rotate the camera this way, only change position, and the click-and-drag bounding box for the camera (and other objects) is fairly small so it is very hit-and-miss. Not to mention that the small preview window, while resizable, is still fairly small. So for these reasons it has not been a major focus of recommended camera adjustment methods. We do plan to improve the utility of the top-down view however.
Note that you can use the same view movement controls in the top-down view as you can in the main 3D preview - e.g. Alt+Left Mouse Button, etc.
- Oshyan
Quote from: calico on September 12, 2007, 01:19:13 PM
This is new, Bobby.
Quote from: bobbystahr on September 12, 2007, 01:07:44 PM
Well I must be totally brain dead but I only discovered this today. Double clicking on the top down view of the terrain allows one to resize that lil display window and also, once in that mode one can click on the camera and move it willy-nilly where ever one's lil heart desires. Also one can doom in for finer positioning...TooFrigginCool....dunno why I never found this before and if it was posted anywhere it just went right over my newbie head....LOL...hope this helps someone else as clued out as me in their navigations of TG2TP
Oh. LOL ;D How was I to know? 8)
Quote from: Oshyan on September 12, 2007, 01:55:26 PM
This functionality has been available since the initial TG2 TP 1.8.64.0 late last year as far as I know.