http://americancensorship.org/?action_code=FgxRWxYUOVIKQV0YAFYeUQ&td=VZFBSwMxEIX_SshJoU03a3dr14tSqid7kIIHKyHNZtvQ7M4ym1Sp-N-dYKUIucx8j_dmJl_cttp5XnE09wcjEIWBlo9443AInW4toRfYsoX23hkIwRLUdY2SQCnnbLVk82nYs7VF1CbRk-sTm8qioApt7dCaoCKmGOootSUzCOcK-qCOruZVF70f8QEiks1fFbf_G_0eugsNQPaqcd4OvHp7p47bdbFXDWCrkieXN5Rh0OpgVZ0i80zm40yOs4LlsipmVS4vCtertBvJZlNR5kKWpchldhHEwaLSO9slq2c4Oe_1ZlKIjF29uq6Gj4Gt1qwQ8o7hsboV2TV7suYAmwnlZvQke6RzNPC5mRBNxnvdBzJN00q6O01-PvvDImfL9DtsAd0O7TCQvIU6entW_G7Lv38A
Absolutely not. Personally i feel the more Government we have the more the Bureaucracy takes away our freedoms. We can make a hundred laws trying to stop on-line piracy and people will always find a way around these laws. Take Drugs for example. As long as drugs exist the addicts will always find a way to access there addiction, even if they pay a high price, hurt others and go across borders to get those drugs. Point is you can not make enough laws to end these issues. It all comes down to one's principles, personal responsibility and morals. People will always break laws no matter how many are written and will always find loop holes around these laws, more laws is not the solution. Personal responsibility is. Just because some screw up does not mean the whole of the populous suffers with more rules on the books. Here in the US, i guarantee we are breaking laws we probably are unaware we are breaking. We have stacks and stacks or rules and regulations. This has not done much good at all.
The SOPA and PIPA (Protect IP Act) are almost the purest form of evil and corruption if you'd ask me.
Both are only designed because the (still) extremely wealthy music labels and film distributors (like Paramount) have so ridiculously much money that they can infinitely effectively lobby themselves into many people of influence in the USA. The USA is the instigator of this, though they did not design ACTA alone, but SOPA and PIPA are unique to USA.
Only in a country where you can sue McDonalds for dozens of $millions because the coffee you stupidly spilled over yourself was 5 degrees too hot, can you come up with such ridiculous extreme acts/laws and actually even manage to get it effective. "Only in America". Which is fine, normally, but not when this crazyness affects all of the world.
The mechanism why all the laws in the world, which are faithful to the privacy rights and don't facilitate censorship etc., will not work is simply because these old-fashioned overfed companies completely refuse to change their strategies and are desperately clamping to their old-fashioned albums/dvd's for high prices with tons of copyprotections and copyright-notifications.
Take a look at Valve. Their CEO said that piracy is a non-issue to their company. Why? Because they deliver services people nowadays want, he said.
They offer games for sale which you can download and install anywhere, anytime, on all your computers if you want and you'll never lose it since your purchases are stored online.
That's what people want these days and no DVD's which you BUY and then have to look through dozens of trailers, copyright-warnings, FBI-warning and what not.
Or a $2 MP3 with DRM which you can only listen on your PC and/or 1 mobile device.
I really loathe from these industries and especially the 'politicians' who pretend they serve the people, but actually are only trying to stuff themselves with money or the jobs they get handed over after doing the entertainment industry some favors. Blegh!
And I even haven't started about the consequences SOPA and PIPA will have....oh my!
No SOPA.
- Oshyan
The Law (All law, for all time) has never stopped a single crime from occurring. No nation, government or civilization has ever prevented any abuse of one man by another by making any act, or behavior, criminal. The law has though, successfully been used to cary out horrible acts of violence against all peoples, nations and civilizations across the globe and throughout history. Whatever justice can be done as a result of SOPA, will inevitably be outweighed by the injustice it will facilitate.
Obama will probably sign SOPA.
SOPA is however, not as scary as the 'National Defense Authorization Act' (NDAA). signed into Law by Obama over the holidays. NDAA gives the U.S. Government the power to to seize and incarcerate US citizens without warrant, due process, or trial. In Obama's defense though, he has promised not to use these powers against US citizens.
Seriously, is anyone out there still going to defend this President?
Yes, the NDAA is another bad one.
I want life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Keep Government out of the Market.
No SOPA.
I'm a bit worried about a similar phenomena going on here in Finland. Laws are being passed that allow censorship of websites, alltho easily overriden with a proxy. Corporations can now apply for a permission to spy on their employees emails incase they suspect them of selling their company secrets (who would ever be so stupid to send such information thru company email??). And other stupid laws are being passed that just amaze me. I'm pretty sure the reason is mostly the fact that people passing the laws dont really understand what it's really about.. Atleast I hope that's the case.
I'm a part of a group called effi that supports on-line civil rights and we just managed to turn around a decision to close the maps and land survey data from the public, now they will be open information to everyone! Unfortunately we didn't have much effect on the cencorship laws, which to me seemed to violate the constitution of Finland, atleast partly..but yeah..
It gets even worse it seems:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/01/05/letter-reveals-u-s-threat-moved-spain-to-implement-anti-piracy-law/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/01/05/letter-reveals-u-s-threat-moved-spain-to-implement-anti-piracy-law/)
The USA makes war in countries in order 'to establish democracy'...what we see in the context of SOPA/ACTA/PIPA/NDAA is anything but democracy. Disgusting!
I'm pretty sure the sudden change in Dutch politics has to do with this as well. Parliament was against ACTA until the very last seconds of the voting a big party (PVV) decided to vote in favor of ACTA.
Another politician, Fred Teeven, 'suddenly' had an unhealthy interest in designing an anti-download law which at all efforts must be installed.
Parliament is against, so far, but he's saying he's looking into ways to circumvent that.
Makes one really wonder why he's so extremely motivated for doing that, as many investigations in The Netherlands show that CD/DVD sales did go down, but online sales of music really grows and the cinemas have increased profits and number of visitors year after year.
Capitalism has evolved far beyond it's optimal point/form and this is what it has turned into: corruption and anti-democratics.
Personally i have nothing against Capitalism as a wonderful idea. What i am against is Corporatism "Crony Capitalism" and Government involved in the Market Place. This is what we are seeing before our eyes. It goes against the Constitution, our personal liberties and limits our freedom as a whole. The last thing anyone one want's is Tyranny but the truth is as Government grows and delves it's claws into our lives and commerce what we get are baby steps towards 1984, not saying it will be that outcome because i think we would revolt before that happens.
Quote from: ChrisC on January 06, 2012, 06:51:55 AM
Personally i have nothing against Capitalism as a wonderful idea. What i am against is Corporatism "Crony Capitalism" and Government involved in the Market Place. This is what we are seeing before our eyes. It goes against the Constitution, our personal liberties and limits our freedom as a whole. The last thing anyone one want's is Tyranny but the truth is as Government grows and delves it's claws into our lives and commerce what we get are baby steps towards 1984, not saying it will be that outcome because i think we would revolt before that happens.
I agree with you as I have nothing against capitalism per se, but as I pointed out today's capitalism is not capitalism anymore as you explained.
I'm not entirely sure if the people would revolt. With the baby steps it's going to 1984 that is the exact clever mechanism on how they achieve these goals. If you install acts/laws out of the blue, people will revolt, but if you split the act in many parts which are less "worse" and install them one by one, slowly, then people lose sight of the greater picture, lose interest and lose influence. In the long-term all the amendments together IS that ridiculous act/law they initially wanted.
In Dutch we call this "sliding scale".
@TU - In the U.S. we call this "slow boiling the frog".
Quote from: calico on January 06, 2012, 09:29:38 AM
@TU - In the U.S. we call this "slow boiling the frog".
Ah, learned something again today, thanks :)
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on January 06, 2012, 07:03:56 AM
Quote from: ChrisC on January 06, 2012, 06:51:55 AM
Personally i have nothing against Capitalism as a wonderful idea. What i am against is Corporatism "Crony Capitalism" and Government involved in the Market Place. This is what we are seeing before our eyes. It goes against the Constitution, our personal liberties and limits our freedom as a whole. The last thing anyone one want's is Tyranny but the truth is as Government grows and delves it's claws into our lives and commerce what we get are baby steps towards 1984, not saying it will be that outcome because i think we would revolt before that happens.
I agree with you as I have nothing against capitalism per se, but as I pointed out today's capitalism is not capitalism anymore as you explained.
I'm not entirely sure if the people would revolt. With the baby steps it's going to 1984 that is the exact clever mechanism on how they achieve these goals. If you install acts/laws out of the blue, people will revolt, but if you split the act in many parts which are less "worse" and install them one by one, slowly, then people lose sight of the greater picture, lose interest and lose influence. In the long-term all the amendments together IS that ridiculous act/law they initially wanted.
In Dutch we call this "sliding scale".
Indeed, today's Capitalism is not the same as yesterdays.
Peter Schiff (American Investment Broker) warned us of these issues and had predicted some of the onslaught but the Media laughed it off and now what do they have to say. Milton Friedman (Free-Market Economist) has issued these warning for decades.
I think that cleaver mechanism is starting to become noticed here in the US. It started with the Tea Party and Occupy and there is a growing degree of Ron Paul followers. He want's all of these acts here repealed. And that is just the beginning. So i do have some hope as long as the people continue to figure it out which i think they are. The Internet has become a powerful tool to spread this knowledge for these movements.
QuoteWhat i am against is Corporatism "Crony Capitalism"
QuoteI agree with you as I have nothing against capitalism per se, but as I pointed out today's capitalism is not capitalism anymore
I must agree! But we must not abandon faith in are selves, that our hard days work may bring a fair days pay! That we are worth something, and that this something can provide for us.
Quotebecause i think we would revolt before that happens
Any revolt must be cultural, because all of the problems we face are cultural. God save us if any revolt becomes violent in the west as in the middle east.
I also want to say I am for copy right protections! I want to own my work and be the only master of my work, so I would not take this away from anyone else. But not at the expense of my soul, or my nations. It is better that we tolerate theft of a DVD, than we allow our selves to be subjugated by military rule. Sadly, these are the apparent choices our 'ass hat' governments are allowing us. So sad.
Ron Paul is starting to look like a good candidate
Quote from: TheBadger on January 06, 2012, 10:46:20 PM
QuoteWhat i am against is Corporatism "Crony Capitalism"
QuoteI agree with you as I have nothing against capitalism per se, but as I pointed out today's capitalism is not capitalism anymore
I must agree! But we must not abandon faith in are selves, that our hard days work may bring a fair days pay! That we are worth something, and that this something can provide for us.
Quotebecause i think we would revolt before that happens
Any revolt must be cultural, because all of the problems we face are cultural. God save us if any revolt becomes violent in the west as in the middle east.
I also want to say I am for copy right protections! I want to own my work and be the only master of my work, so I would not take this away from anyone else. But not at the expense of my soul, or my nations. It is better that we tolerate theft of a DVD, than we allow our selves to be subjugated by military rule. Sadly, these are the apparent choices our 'ass hat' governments are allowing us. So sad.
Ron Paul is starting to look like a good candidate
Yes. In a Free-Market system with minimal Government, everyone gets an opportunity, everyone gets a fighting chance and things are more fair because the power and choices are turned over to us and not some lobby group that thinks if ten percent likes one thing then by force the other ninety percent must like that as well. We can regulate ourselves and allow more locality. The government is there more to protect our rights, freedom and security but when it reaches beyond it's original authority then we are mere sheep. Allow the Market to dictate fairness because we are the Market through the exchange of services and goods by means of a free-flowing monetary system using sound money.
It already has become violent in some parts. The Occupy Wall Street movement has used violent means in certain instances sadly.
I hope more of us in the USA discover Ron Paul because if anyone want's to bring freedom back, he is the few politicians who are for such essentials. I see more folks figuring it out but there are still many who are reliant upon the Media and The Political Establishment as well. Washington has to be downgraded.
Quote from: ChrisC on January 07, 2012, 01:51:38 AM
Yes. In a Free-Market system with minimal Government, everyone gets an opportunity, everyone gets a fighting chance and things are more fair because the power and choices are turned over to us and not some lobby group that thinks if ten percent likes one thing then by force the other ninety percent must like that as well. We can regulate ourselves and allow more locality. The government is there more to protect our rights, freedom and security but when it reaches beyond it's original authority then we are mere sheep. Allow the Market to dictate fairness because we are the Market through the exchange of services and goods by means of a free-flowing monetary system using sound money.
I don't usually get into political discussion, but I couldn't help noticing an apparent contradiction here. If fairness is a free market where the price of something is determined by supply and demand, why can't free-market money be used to buy someone's loyalty? Why can't someone's loyalty have a price like anything else? I'm not saying it's a good thing when the loyalty being bought comes with the power to affect the rest of us, but if the market is truly open and someone's purchasing power is a function of how much money they have accumulated in that free market, then how can we say how the money should be spent? It might not seem right, but how do you clearly define that boundary?
There is a lot to think about here and i do not pretend to know everything but i think it all comes down to pure freedom and with freedom does come risks as with anything. Issues of buying one's Loyalty for one. I think a man by the name of Milton Friedman can sum all this up best. Clearly these videos are mixed subjects, however they do represent at least the grand idea of a free-market in many areas. I can not say the US is 100% free-market, at least not yet if ever.
http://youtu.be/F4L-2wQcCI8
http://youtu.be/L-7oMOxPjNE
http://youtu.be/eWrImRnH6bw
http://youtu.be/YmqoCHR14n8
http://youtu.be/fu0hMiBTJPo
http://youtu.be/V8d42BMRNQ0
http://youtu.be/tdLBzfFGFQU
http://youtu.be/dZL25NSLhEA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPHs9Ln8QT8
An absolute free market would be anarchy. You would not do well in a market void of controls, no one would... Save the guy who uses it to totally take over everything. Balance is the key. That point exactly in the middle of Socialism and Fascism, between anarchy and perfect order. I would prefer the middle with a slight lean to fascism and anarchy. Nothing will ever be perfect, but a fighting chance will do.
@Matt/staff- I understand completely why you guys don't like to get into the weeds on this kind of stuff. But this law will definitely have an affect on your product and this community. So my question is, what to do? On the one hand you will have help fighting piracy, on the other the law will eventually lead to the silencing of individuals and groups. And the law will also make your company responsible (legally) for everything said and done on your website by outside users. Lots to worry about, either way.
I am not suggesting a free-market would produce anarchy because there will be regulations to some small degree but from who and how much regulation?
http://youtu.be/L-7oMOxPjNE
Quote from: ChrisC on January 08, 2012, 05:25:34 AM
I am not suggesting a free-market would produce anarchy because there will be regulations to some small degree but from who and how much regulation?
http://youtu.be/L-7oMOxPjNE
I am saying that a true "free" market, is anarchy.
Quote from: TheBadger on January 08, 2012, 04:39:38 AM
@Matt/staff- I understand completely why you guys don't like to get into the weeds on this kind of stuff. But this law will definitely have an affect on your product and this community. So my question is, what to do? On the one hand you will have help fighting piracy, on the other the law will eventually lead to the silencing of individuals and groups. And the law will also make your company responsible (legally) for everything said and done on your website by outside users. Lots to worry about, either way.
Agreed. I think SOPA is wrong.
Quote from: TheBadger on January 08, 2012, 08:13:10 AM
Quote from: ChrisC on January 08, 2012, 05:25:34 AM
I am not suggesting a free-market would produce anarchy because there will be regulations to some small degree but from who and how much regulation?
http://youtu.be/L-7oMOxPjNE
I am saying that a true "free" market, is anarchy.
Well, if we need anything on how to properly run a free-market, all we have to do is listen to the wise of which sadly few listen to.
http://youtu.be/bOMksnSaAJ4
no sopa...
I hate to keep dwelling on this subject but i will end it here. I do not think you will have Anarchy in a free market. You either have a free market or you do not. We do not have one. What we have is socialism and fascism at play (both parties are to blame), both which are harmful to the market and this is nothing new. FDR's new deal is a classic case and those executive orders prolonged the great depression, a fine example of government involved in the market place. The wall street bail outs, another bad case of government involved in the market. The federal reserve toying with the dollar, again another bad case. I can go on and on. If anyone is suggesting government oversight to our market, then all you have to do is look at history as it has done more harm then good. Why trust the government to assume they know better to shift and manipulate other peoples money. The best way to invest, spend and save money is you and that is how one can grow a healthy economy. How anyone can think government can somehow crate jobs, stimulate the economy, spend our money best and bail out failing companies needs to study history and understand more about basic economics. We have spent to long trusting our governments for our welfare and look what that has done. Greece, Spain, Portugal, France, now the US. There are no mandates in the US Constitution to overlook our commerce, healthcare and private lives. The Founding Fathers intent to our Republic is limited government, a strong national defense and economic liberty in our lives which maximizes personal freedom without introducing anarchy nor steering toward totalitarianism. Fascism and Socialism are steps away from Totalitarianism.
I can see this. Thanks for explaining what you see.
Quote from: ChrisC on January 10, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
I hate to keep dwelling on this subject but i will end it here. I do not think you will have Anarchy in a free market. You either have a free market or you do not. We do not have one. What we have is socialism and fascism at play (both parties are to blame), both which are harmful to the market and this is nothing new. FDR's new deal is a classic case and those executive orders prolonged the great depression, a fine example of government involved in the market place. The wall street bail outs, another bad case of government involved in the market. The federal reserve toying with the dollar, again another bad case. I can go on and on. If anyone is suggesting government oversight to our market, then all you have to do is look at history as it has done more harm then good. Why trust the government to assume they know better to shift and manipulate other peoples money. The best way to invest, spend and save money is you and that is how one can grow a healthy economy. How anyone can think government can somehow crate jobs, stimulate the economy, spend our money best and bail out failing companies needs to study history and understand more about basic economics. We have spent to long trusting our governments for our welfare and look what that has done. Greece, Spain, Portugal, France, now the US. There are no mandates in the US Constitution to overlook our commerce, healthcare and private lives. The Founding Fathers intent to our Republic is limited government, a strong national defense and economic liberty in our lives which maximizes personal freedom without introducing anarchy nor steering toward totalitarianism. Fascism and Socialism are steps away from Totalitarianism.
Quote from: calico on January 10, 2012, 07:05:21 PM
I can see this. Thanks for explaining what you see.
Quote from: ChrisC on January 10, 2012, 03:52:06 PM
I hate to keep dwelling on this subject but i will end it here. I do not think you will have Anarchy in a free market. You either have a free market or you do not. We do not have one. What we have is socialism and fascism at play (both parties are to blame), both which are harmful to the market and this is nothing new. FDR's new deal is a classic case and those executive orders prolonged the great depression, a fine example of government involved in the market place. The wall street bail outs, another bad case of government involved in the market. The federal reserve toying with the dollar, again another bad case. I can go on and on. If anyone is suggesting government oversight to our market, then all you have to do is look at history as it has done more harm then good. Why trust the government to assume they know better to shift and manipulate other peoples money. The best way to invest, spend and save money is you and that is how one can grow a healthy economy. How anyone can think government can somehow crate jobs, stimulate the economy, spend our money best and bail out failing companies needs to study history and understand more about basic economics. We have spent to long trusting our governments for our welfare and look what that has done. Greece, Spain, Portugal, France, now the US. There are no mandates in the US Constitution to overlook our commerce, healthcare and private lives. The Founding Fathers intent to our Republic is limited government, a strong national defense and economic liberty in our lives which maximizes personal freedom without introducing anarchy nor steering toward totalitarianism. Fascism and Socialism are steps away from Totalitarianism.
No problem. I think folks are starting to really wake up to what is happening before our eyes. There is legitimate reasoning as to why Ron Paul is gaining more ground then ever. See what he has to say about SOPA here:
http://youtu.be/phRi80HBIuU
Looks like they are going to pull the DNS blocking provision from both SOPA and PIPA for "further study". Our president has expressed concerns about both bills (finally), but has not gone as far as saying that he will veto the bills if passed. There is still plenty wrong with both of these attempts to limit our freedom of speech, but I feel that this will probably help get the bills passed by our legislators. Only time will tell............
Ron Paul is the only option left. Another asshole President for the US will be fatal. Not just for the US but for the rest of the world. I don't even agree with all Ron Paul's rigid libertarianism but the fact is, he sticks to principles. He might not be allowed to stand even if he was to get enough votes. He may not be able to do much since the rest of the US government is corrupt but support for him is a clear message. The more he is ignored or attacked the clearer it becomes who the tyrants are. Obama is a pure puppet of the Anglo/American banking Oligarchs. The last real President of the US was Kennedy.
The bankers/Oligarchs want the rest of the world to turn against the US. Especially Russia and China. The US has historically been the enemy of Oligarchs not the enemy of people seeking freedom.
Democracy began in Attica Greece. They did not have elections. People served in power via lottery. They did however vote unpopular people out. These people were then ostricised. They flourished in wealth and culture because people could not easily buy power, that is until the Oligarchs took over again. They set themselves up at Delphi as essentially the first bankers. The various City States seeked advice from the Oracle i.e. about going to war with each other. The Oligarchs funded both sides and kept power no matter what happened. They control people by keeping them stupid and providing them with various lies and fake options of right/left, fascism/communism, competing religions etc etc.
The Atticans had the first real money or at least the first that was widely accepted but then it was quickly manipulated and devalued.
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/212/attica.png)
Gold is worth huge amounts more and silver has gone up as well. When everyone is investing in total BS and lies that's when you can gather the most wealth while you at least hope that everyone else will wake up in time before it's too late.
Nothing changes and people do not seem to learn.