I've moved the discussion over to images as its no longer strictly a problem issue.
The original thread is here (http://forums.planetside.co.uk/index.php?topic=14225.0)
Well thanks to Hetzen and TheBadger I was reminded to cheat. So I did.
Renders were taking over six hours (plus two to populate). Now its down to 1 Hour and 46 min with a negligible population time.
Previously if I used fill lighting the renders came out very "flat". The trees in shadow had no "roundness" to them and the only solution was to use GI at relatively high sample/quality and low blur radius.
The new solution has my standard fill light setup plus two new lights as "key" lights. These are set to give a highlight on the trees in the shadow areas. Also their effect on the atmosphere is disabled. The populations that were 8 are now 4, and the models are twice the base size and have greater scale variance (0.5 > 2)
New models added to replace the old place holders. They're still not textured but give a much better idea of where this is going.
I'm not sure about the larger population models, I feel they make the scene "smaller" somehow.
C&C welcome as always.
Cheers
Richard
Edit: Added another render with some low level cloud. Rendered in 1 Hour and 52 min
Quote from: cyphyr on April 03, 2012, 12:53:18 PM
I'm not sure about the larger population models, I feel they make the scene "smaller" somehow.
Smaller? Maybe. Better? Yes! I think so. Its a more real world scale. Its a VERY good image... Are you still going to animate?
Quote from: cyphyr on April 03, 2012, 12:53:18 PM
The new solution has my standard fill light setup plus two new lights as "key" lights. These are set to give a highlight on the trees in the shadow areas. Also their effect on the atmosphere is disabled.
This is one of the subjects I wish someone would make a tutorial for. There are plenty of files and images and conversations about it here. But when I try it it never works out well. A step by step of a real world project would solve all of my problems. Sorry just my standard complaint and request.
Quote from: cyphyr on April 03, 2012, 12:53:18 PM
Well thanks to Hetzen and TheBadger I was reminded to cheat. So I did.
I think it Kadri and Hetzen. I was just trying to be supportive. I don't have ideas of my own yet (problem solving) I just listen to you guys and repeat. But I'm glad you don't mind me jumping in.
Very good work cyphyr.
Great concept! Really like this one all over! Would be cool to see this animated... ;D
Scene looks great and, in my view, none the worse for the changes. Although I miss the rays, are those coming back? Or was that part of the optimization that needed to happen?
- Oshyan
thats looking great!
Thanks guys (and Kardi :) )
I do hope to animate it although the grand plan I started with may have to be modified just a tad ::)
I'm not set on any of the models or their positioning yet. I liked the rays in the earlier images but not the models. The new ones are still casting some rays but much more subtly. Basically there will be plenty of ray casting :)
I don't think casting rays or not particularly adds to render time. Its the enabling of "Receive shadows from surfaces", irrespective of what shadows, that slows everything down.
The key lights (at 30° and 60° from the sun) are set to only illuminate surfaces (and cast shadows enabled) so add nothing to the render time of volumetrics (the rays and clouds). All theyre really doing is giving a highlight bounce to the foliage.
Cheers
Richard
Quote from: cyphyr on April 03, 2012, 05:24:40 PM
Its the enabling of "Receive shadows from surfaces", irrespective of what shadows, that slows everything down.
Correct. I just wasn't sure if it was still enabled as any rays in the scene are extremely subtle, if there at all.
- Oshyan
One thing I would like to see in the still image version, is one of those bridges just slightly to the bottom of camera level in the immediate foreground, with great detail. It will add a ton of extra depth and perspective. As well as help the distant bridges read much more clearly.
It looks a little different but very nice Richard !
You have not the willingness to use billboards didn't you Richard?
Not that i would want too , before absolutely required :D
PS: Just curious was the "Kardi" a reference to TheBadger (mostly he writes it wrong . Not that i mind :) ) or did you used it wrong too without noticing ? :D
Wow that vegitation is growing everywhere! lol. very good Variation of Veggies IMO mate. Very good Composition too, I really love what you did with it. :)
lol
yeah, Im a pretty bad typist.
One more thing, cyphyr. I think that the geology of the visible terrain would create a micro climate. Perhaps you can use those clouds in image 2 to reflect that more. More moisture some how?
If the additional lights are used to light up the foreground but give the impression it's not catching direct sunlight, perhaps you could remove 1/3 of the red out of those lights, a cooler colour, and that could make it look like light filtering down from the sky and bouncing off the canyon walls? That would provide a nice hue contrast with the parts that are catching direct sunlight.
Matt
loving this scene set up..looking good, interesting techniques too
:)
WOW, I didn't realise that it's been over two months since I updated this. There have been some, err, technical issues that I have been struggling with mostly to do with lighting.
Rough story board for Deep Green Canyon Concept: NOTHING is final but I'm getting there slowly. Here the camera is static, just pivoting about itself to look down the canyon, up the canyon walls and then look back in the opposite direction at the tower and waterfall. Lighting this has been an enormous headache surmounted only (for now, something will crop up no doubt) by having 16 separate cloud layers.
Cheers
Richard
Love the towers and the falls, cyphyr.
Looking forward to more.
Whoa! Is there a large version of the End image in that storyboard? It looks awesome.
This will be one heck of an animation, Richard! The finale is stunning. I too would like to see that big.
Thanks for the positive feedback guys.
I think I am finally getting somewhere with this. There have been so many contradicting and conflicting elements that all have to come together it's been something of a nightmare to make it all work.
Even now there bits that are something of a compromise and I'm having to change my ideas to accommodate as I go along.
I used to say that any animation that took longer than 20min a frame was abandoned; I'm up to 1h20min/frame now ... not good ... need more computers. So even when the creative bit is done there will still be a month of rendering before theres an animation to show :(
Sorry there's no "finale" image at the moment, keeps changing anyway :)
Ok off to model a aerial dock.
Cheers
Richard
DeepGreen update:
Balpheron wing flyer pretty much final.
This will be flying down the canyon.
C&C welcome
Richard
Looks good Richard :)
I am only not sure about the texture on the canopy(?).
It kinda holds up but it looks like it is not as correct as the other textures from a size point of view.
No mater what, I think this is going to be a pretty great little movie!
Now that's something I'd like to fly into canyons with. Amazing machine!
Another update.
The Bellerophon (correct spelling this time!) in her natural environment.
Kadri, yes I agree about the canopy texture and the next update should have something of an improvement (I hope).
I've also changed the aspect ratio to full wide screen (2.35 as opposed to 1.77). Gives it a more filmic look and renders a little quicker.
Cheers
Richard
Hot news:
I got the render time down from 4 hours to just 1 hour!
This just might work.
Cheers
Richard
Nice work Richard
Looking very cool indeed, keep going buddy.
Chris
How?
Also, great frame! The animation will look great.
Quote from: TheBadger on June 16, 2012, 06:15:02 PM
How?
Just by cuting some corners, I can drop a little in quality as it will be moving so a little blur will be ok (I hope). I'd like to be able to go for the highest quality but I don't think I could bare rendering till Christmas!
Richard
If this is just for learning and fun I agree. But if this is for your reel, then I say go balls out and render on the farm.
Getting closer to animation! Looks good :)
Hurry please, I want to see this ;) Will we be seeing this, anyway? Is your waterfall on another planet now? That should save a lot of render time. And how did you get the lighting on the 'building', hitting cloud seeds forever until it looked good? I never got the clouds' shadow map to work properly, it never looks like the shadow of the cloud without the shadow map checked.
And did you construct the Bellerophon (nice name) so that it's parts can be moved? It would be very handy here to be able to non-RayTrace some objects, as you could then have the canopy flapper a little.
Still trudging along ...
It's getting slow to load but edging towards a final :)
Richard
Looks good :)
And frame 700, the final resting place of the shot.
I'm not happy about the citadel yet, think it needs to stand out more.
Richard
This looks like it could be really incredible! I can't wait to see it rendered. I hope you are planning to (and have the resources to) render it in HD!
- Oshyan
Not really sure what the technical res will be. It was 720p HD (720x1280) but I liked the letterbox feel of the 2.35:1 ration I have here. Looks more "filmic" and as a bonus chops off about 20% render time. The resolution now is 545x1280.
It's going to take about a month to render.
I can see lots of short camping trips coming up :)
Richard
This is a project I'm looking forward seeing the results of. Each iteration looks better than the last. Frame 111 looks great :) In Frame 700 I'd like to see more contrast. Even just brighter overall might do the trick. Some curves in Photoshop could work. Make sure you render all possible Render Elements for the final :)
Matt
Richard,
I hope you don't mind me trying out some colour adjustments and posting them here. I started off just trying to get more light and contrast in frame 700, then I went back to both frames and adjusted the overall colour to something I like. Maybe they go against your colour concept?
Matt
Oh that is lovely :)
I was intending on doing a lot of post work and grading was one aspect. That's very good and definately the direction I want to go with this.
:)
Richard
Glad you like it. Just some curves in Photoshop.
Ok Matt, I like what you've done with the grade but "just with curves", I've tried all day and to no avail. How did you do this with just curve adjustment.?
Cheers
Richard
I like the post work too. But you guys aren't talking about doing this frame by frame are you? I mean, batch or otherwise?
I know that there are much more powerful apps than after effects, but one great thing is that AE is basically PS on steroids. You can use curves over the entire animation, setting key frames to change the curves over time were necessary.
It may be possible to put matts setting into AE as a starting point (for that frame set) and work backwards and forward from there. I haven't tried it but the settings in curves from PS should have the same effect on the same frame in AE
Just a possibility.
Richard,
I didn't save a preset, so I've tried to reproduce what I did on frame 700, and it looks like the attached screenshot. There's an overall S curve to increase contrast, with emphasis on brightening overall. I also changed the individual R, G and B curves to correct the white balance.
This is working on the JPG, of course. I usually leave the black and white point alone if I'm working on a LDR image like this. I'd use different techniques on an EXR.
On the other frame I didn't really change the contrast or brightness, I just pushed the R, G and B channels around a bit to give the mist the hue I was looking for. If I remember rightly, I would either boost or reduce a channel with a single control point in the middle of the curve.
I would save this as a preset, but I can't figure out how to save a preset from an adjustment layer!?
Matt
I'd have to suggest using AE for colour grading as well. I don't know if you're familiar with it or not but there's a free version of Colourista from Red Giant, I use that for all my grading.
Also - your latest frames look incredible!
Thanks Matt, easy when you know how.
Just tried it in PS and of course it works a charm. Pretty sure the curves the curves in AE will work the same (just a quick check and indeed they do) so this is a big jump forward.
Thankyou.
And thank you trailofsevens for the link to Red Giant, some usefull free software there. I will be using the Colourista and the lens flare (shhh) :)
Richard
Free is Great!
But on the lens flares, if you get to wanting to drop a few dollars, this is the best lens flare plug in I have ever used. It really is very good, if you need it.
https://www.videocopilot.net/products/opticalflares/
No problem :) I find Colourista more intuitive than curves. This is a great overview of it's more advanced features like keying/specific colour targeting https://vimeo.com/13271908
+1 for Optical Flares too, though if you get it, you'll overuse lens flares for months haha.