I'm starting a new topic as a follow up to my post of the other day and the excellent suggestions to that post regarding TG2 rendering.
What I would like to do is assemble a dedicated TG2 rendering PC for TG2 renderings in the 3300x5100 pixel range (11x17 inch print size at 300dpi), which is my typical objective for TG2 renderings.
The core of the dedicated rendering system itself would likely be an Intel i7 CPU with 16-32GB RAM. Memory has been well discussed, and I think it best to simply populate the machine to 32GB since RAM cost is not prohibitive. The i7 is very popular, is reliable, is currently at a good price and can be overclocked. But here's what I would like to know from anyone who would like to weigh in:
1. What impact on rendering would a graphics accelerator card have? In other words, would rendering be negatively impacted on a system that uses only the onboard video of the motherboard (or a cheap VGA video card) versus a graphics accelerated video card such as an EVGA GeForce? Keep in mind that this rendering system would not be used for anything else other than TG2 rendering, i.e., no TG2 design or gaming. And, the rendered graphic would be processed at another PC.
2. What impact on rendering would a RAID hard drive configuration have? RAID 1 (mirrored) would provide higher hard drive fault protection while RAID 0 (stripped) would provide a read/write performance increase. The question is, would a RAID 0 (stripped) configuration improve TG2 rendering time enough to pursue a RAID configuration?
3. Would anyone like to comment on cooling? Does TG2 rendering put such a demand on the CPU that I need to pay close attention to better cooling?
4. Would anyone like to comment on the OS. Is Windows 7 64bit a good choice. Or does anyone prefer another OS such as Windows 2003/2008 server or even XP?
If anyone has put together a dedicated TG2 rendering system of the current Intel or AMD generation CPU's, I would welcome an opportunity to review the specs and possibly hear about some experiences rendering TG2 on such a system.
Perhaps this thread can result in a set of specs for a home TG2 rendering system that others can refer to (until the current CPU generation falls obsolete anyway).
Thanks everyone!
Pat
Pat, you don't want a dedicated TG2 rendering system, you want a dedicated render workstation. Limiting your system needs to the requirements of one piece of software is suicide.
Take into account the needs of compositing and video editing and post processing, etc...
i7 systems are indeed a great choice, don't scrimp on graphics cards, although many 3d programs these days rely on CPU power for rendering, many don't. Cooling is paramount to maintaining a stable system, my water cooled system never gets above a controlable temp and it's rendering 24hrs a day. The RAM the merrier is one of my little catchphrases, just don't expect a 3300x5100 image to render in an hour!
Your budget will determine your components, perhaps if you said how much you have to spend we could suggest some examples for you, don't forget to let us know where in the world you are ;)
Good luck in sourcing your new system
I agree, it's important to specify a budget (or budget range). Also, where you're located can have an effect on system/component pricing. In the US things tend to be cheaper than the UK or Australia, for example.
To answer your questions specifically in regards to TG2 (Andrew's answers are good, but are more general):
1: TG2 does not utilize the graphics card at all while rendering. A faster/better card will improve 3D preview performance for large/complex objects and/or populations, but will not actually make the 3D preview itself "render" faster for terrain, clouds, etc.; basically it will only have an effect on 3D previewing of objects.
2: RAID will have a minimal impact on rendering performance. Everything is pretty much loaded into memory at render time since disk access is far too slow, even with a solid-state drive. So RAM is much more important there. Faster disk access will probably speed up scene load time however. If disk speed is a concern, you should consider getting an SSD.
3: Good cooling is certainly important. TG2 pushes a CPU about as hard as it's possible to push it, especially if you're using enough threads to occupy the "hyperthreading" threads on Core i5 and i7 CPUs. Water cooling can be effective but unless you're overclocking, it's probably unnecessary. In fact a very good air cooler can outperform an average water cooler in many situations.
4: Windows 7 64 bit is an ideal Terragen OS. I don't think the server versions of Windows offer any particular benefit for TG use. Win8 is not out yet and obviously unproven, not to mention its focus on the new user interface approach, and of course TG is not a tablet-oriented app so there's no real benefit there.
I've put together quite a lot of systems in the past but most recently I decided to really go for the gusto and get a really nice, custom-built workstation from Puget Systems. They're a US system builder with an excellent reputation and I can speak to the quality of their work. They do, however, charge something of a premium for their work. Buying from a more budget-oriented system builder, not to mention assembling the parts yourself, would certainly save a lot of money. That being said they offer a lot of added value for the added cost; not so much, I would say, that it fully justifies the premium, but it's still quite a nice service they offer. They even do overclocking for you, which is quite nice if you want to get maximum performance without any hassle. My overclocked i7 2600k runs at 4.6Ghz rock solid - a nearly 30% overclock - rendering often times for days in a row, and it just gets a bit noisier when rendering as the fan picks up to keep it cool, but otherwise there's no affect. Certainly no stability issues. The system is very fast.
Depending on your budget, you may also be considering (or end up having recommended to you) dual CPU Xeon or Opteron systems. Personally I'd sooner recommend a single CPU overclocked from your system builder. You'll get better rendering performance for your money that way. My bet would be that a 6 core i7 (3930K for example) overclocked ~30% with 16-32GB of RAM is going to be your best bang-for-buck. I will say, though, that almost all system builders who do overclocking will charge a premium for it. You have a wider choice of more budget-friendly system builders if overclocking is not a criteria. But if you can afford it, a place like Puget does build a great system. Again it would be helpful to know your budget to offer more specific advice.
- Oshyan
Couldn't agree more with you Oshyan, like you I had a custom overclocked i7 system built for me by Overclockers in the UK. I think one of the points to remember is that regardless of whether you consider the system to be a dedicated render machine it will always be used for something else and so scrimping in other areas to improve specs in some or one is actually self defeating.
Post processing in photoshop or compositing or video editing require differing resources. Your best bet is to think of all the tools you are likely to use in your pipeline, not limiting it just to TG2 and then expand that list to the would like to use category, come up with your budget then have the system built around those needs. Buying a system from PC world is out of the question but oddly there are some nice workstation manufacturers who can cater for pretty much all your needs.
All very good points Guys. Thanks!
Martin: I already have a workstation of high capabilities (i7, 8GB RAM, GeoForce, 2.5 TB hard drive and so on). I'm a software developer by profession and a photographer by hobby, so PC's are an essential part of my every day and I don't hold back when building them. As for a budget, well, I don't have one because I am, at this point, investigating what costs will be associated with Terragen 2 in total, which includes a rendering system so as to not tie up my workstation. But, I am not willing to spend money just to spend money – I want the best value for my dollars.
Oshyan, I checked out Puget Systems. Nice stuff they do, but they offer me no value (that I see) for the extra cost that I can't create for myself. Since I know PC technology and can build my own systems, I can accomplish what Puget can for half their cost. Now, if I needed a super water cooled PC, I might give them the work. Or if this were a business investment, maybe Puget while I fill out some government paperwork. But otherwise, I would be burning money. I was set back by Puget's predominate use of Kingston RAM. I don't believe Kingston RAM is as good as people like Mushkin and G-Skill. I think the Kingston RAM is a cost shaving approach because Puget has is already priced itself right up to the market's price tolerance level IMO.
Martin and Oshyan: If I were pinned down to give a dollar budget, I would say $700. This is based on a couple of factors which is mainly that I'm presently ok investing $1000 into this Terragen project ($299+$700). Second, I know from experience that I can build a screaming system for around that amount. I'm actually in a fact-finding role at the moment. I'm close to buying into TG2, but I'm the type of person who wants his ducks lined up before diving into the pool. I'm not good at TG2 yet and the real questions are, could I ever be and should I try to be? (Don't bother addressing those questions – I don't think even my God knows). TG2's documentation is an issue for me, but I feel that PlanetSide will correct that situation one way or another. I have obtained some stunning results from TG2 on my own, but they were purely by accident because I don't know how to control TG2 to achieve predictable results – I'm getting "happy accidents" from TG2 so far. So, my budget is based on what I'm willing to invest in the pursuit of the hobby of landscape visualization, that being $1,000 at the moment. That amount will increase in time in proportion to my ability to get more from TG2 than I can now.
You both asked where I am located. Connecticut USA. There is not a spec of any decent PC hardware in my state, so I buy nearly all my PC hardware from Newegg.com. I avoid all whitebox builders and ebay. I don't buy from Dell unless I want a discardable laptop. I send people I don't like over to Staples and BestBuy for their PC's. In about $5000 worth of PC hardware purchases over the past 5 or so years, Newegg.com hasn't burned me yet, so they'll get my business for this project as well.
Osyhan, thank you for your specific answers to my questions about video and RAID configs. I also agree that Win7 x64 would be the best OS, but wanted to keep that discussion open. What I take away from your specific responses is that the focus of a dedicated TG2 rendering system should be a fast multi-cored CPU and an abundance of RAM. Most other capabilities (video, RAID, hard drive) will not have a significant improvement impact on TG2 rendering itself (but to Martin's point, such things as video and RAID would be essential for a graphics workstation).
At this point, let me list a set of components that are obtainable at reasonable cost (Newegg.com) for a dedicated TG2 rendering system. Keep in mind that this system would be only for TG2 rendering.
Case with good air cooling capabilities. Water cooled not necessary.
350 watt Power supply min (just one hard drive in system). 500 watt better.
Motherboard with onboard video and LAN. The Z68 chipset not necessary.
The I7-2600K Sandy Bridge or the i7-3770K Ivy Bridge CPU.
32 GB RAM (4x8GB) at highest speed motherboard can support.
SATA3 320GB hard drive mainly for the OS. SSD nice, but not necessary.
Windows 7 x64 (edition doesn't matter)
The above parts and OS would come to around $800 from www.newegg.com.
Anyone please feel free to suggest alternate specs to the above.
No one should take the above specs as an official/recommended dedicated TG2 rendering system – we're just discussing at this point.
Thanks!
Pat
Who is this Martin bloke you keep going on about?
Sorry but it seems like you are scrimping, if you alrewady have an i7 based system, why spend the additional $800 on a new one, just upgrade it and don't scrimp on video card or other elements needed for additional 3D work.
Terragen 2 is NOT the be all and end all of 3D work, it is meant to be used as an intergrated part of your pipeline, combined with a 3D Modelling/Rendering package, a post production package and a compositing/video editing package.
So, don't scrimp.
QuoteWho is this Martin bloke you keep going on about?
Oops. I was referring to "Andrew". Got mixed up with the name of another fellow in an unrelated forum discussion. Sorry Andrew. Got too much going on.
QuoteSorry but it seems like you are scrimping, if you alrewady have an i7 based system, why spend the additional $800 on a new one, just upgrade it and don't scrimp on video card or other elements needed for additional 3D work.
Because my current system is dedicated to my profession as a software developer and my photography pursuits. I could use the system at night doing TG2 renders, but the system is often in backup mode at that time. I would rather have a system cranking away at TG as an isolated job without risk of an auto update, a Windows update or a backup kicking in. As for scrimping, I don't when I see value. But I see it more as spending the money where the system will give the best results. While I could afford 2 grand for a TG2 rendering system, why should I? In addition, I don't have the ability to get pro level results from Terragen yet and throwing a lot of money at a PC will not get me to expert level any faster.
QuoteTerragen 2 is NOT the be all and end all of 3D work, it is meant to be used as an intergrated part of your pipeline, combined with a 3D Modelling/Rendering package, a post production package and a compositing/video editing package.
I get that Andrew. I never questioned that. However, my interest in Terragen is rather narrowly confined to landscape visualization (at this time) more from a photographers veiwpoint than a visual effects pursuit. I don't question TG's role in the big VFX picture.
Okay, I get where you are coming from, being an award winning photographer myself.
However and this should be apparent as a photographer you will need additional software to complete anything you create in Terragen, be it corel painter or photoshop for post processing/looks. Hence my comments about not discounting your new PC's additional needs, although you could always use your other PC for this.
What I am really saying is that as you explore TG2, you will find yourself being sucked inexorably into the world of 3D and you will want to explore it further, it is unavoidable (Vader voice). You will want to add elements to your TG2 scenes that TG2 cannot create in itself but having a 3D Modelling program will allow to create and integrate those elements with ease.
Try not to limit the requirements of your PC to what you need now but rather think about what you might use it for in the future also.
Good luck
Quoteas a photographer you will need additional software
I have more software than I can inventory, including Photoshop.
Quoteyou will find yourself being sucked inexorably into the world of 3D
How true. Been there. But for me, TG2 will be about landscapes with 3D models coming in to augment the landscape. I did a project using Maya a couple years ago. I was both exhausting and exillerating.
QuoteTry not to limit the requirements of your PC
Good advice. In the case of a TG rendering system, I want the power to be in the rendering. If I ever quit using TG, a rendering station will be quickly re-allocated or modded to take on the next project.
PCook, prices must have dropped if you can put together a decent system for $700!
BTW, didn't see a video card in your specs.....may want to consider NVIDIA for gpu rendering even if TG2 doesn't support it (yet)....just nice to have that option.
I built an Octane box last year and put in a GeForce 210 for display, and a GeForce GTX 460 for gpu rendering, with a PhenomII 955 3.2gz cpu, and 600watt power supply, etc for about $900 from Fry's. It's relatively fast, but it's all relative....."how slow a render time can I live with?" is what we each have to decide for ourselves. The choice of components is amazing and mind boggling.
What other 3D apps do you use besides Maya?
Oshyan, QuoteMy overclocked i7 2600k runs at 4.6Ghz rock solid - a nearly 30% overclock - rendering often times for days in a row
what takes days to render? :o
Are you doing an animation?
I don't have enough experience with TG2 to have any expectations (on my systems) for render times.
Quoteprices must have dropped if you can put together a decent system for $700!
www.newegg.com has decent prices. Mostly they are reputable. But keep in mind that this system would have a small hard drive, no video accelerator adapter. Would be just for TG rendering. The total cost would be for parts only, I would build the system.
QuoteBTW, didn't see a video card in your specs
Right. Would just use the video of the motherboard since a video adapter wouldn't improve rendering that much.
QuoteI built an Octane box
I'll check out Fry's.
Thanks
Pat
Ahh, well that brings quite a lot of critical information and perspective. Now, knowing where you're aiming (and that you also prefer to build your own systems, which I certainly advocate if you have the skills), I think you're spot in with the general hardware choice and price range. It sounds like you're basically trying to put together something similar to a render box I was contemplating for building a small farm earlier this year. I didn't end up going through with it, but was able to spec out a very capable and overclockable machine with an i7 2700k, 16GB of RAM, etc. for $700 or so. I think some prices have come down a bit even since then, so 32GB of RAM is probably feasible. I too was using onboard graphics and if I understand your intentions correctly this would be fine for you too as you would only really use the machine for the rendering portion. You could always add a dedicated graphics card later for any apps that might be accelerated by it for rendering.
The only thing you didn't mention - though I'm sure you're already aware of it - is the CPU cooler. I imagine you already have some options in mind, but this is what I was looking at when I was in the market, for what it's worth:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103099
I never did buy so I haven't tested, but you can see the reviews, it's quite a popular option, fairly quiet and effective according to feedback both there and on Amazon.
Megacal, the multi-day rendering is definitely animation. :D
- Oshyan