Hello all,
Sorry for my absence from these forums for the past year. I miss the great people and great ideas that this forum has...it really isn't common. I hope we're bringing another great idea to the table.
While away, I was busy following through with my threats to build a better render farm. On January 1st, we went public beta. You can read about our service here: http://www.pixelplow.net
We support every aspect of Terragen 2.4 and 2.5 rendering released to date, including but not limited to:
- Handling of GI pre-passes
- Automatic handling of any additional output
- Tiled rendering for still images
- Automatic scene file optimization for our hardware
- Scene file parsing for form auto-completion on the client-side application
Additionally, we have many non-TG-specific features like:
- Fully automated job submission and result delivery in real-time
- Automated email notification on job completion or exception
- Changing job priority level while running
- Cancelling jobs at any point
- Security by default
- NDA by default
- No job time limits
- No job size limits
- ...and lots more
Oh, and we're cheaper than our competition on top of all that.
If you're interested in knowing more, please head over to our site. Feel free to ask me questions here as well. We (Eric C., Eric S., Rick, David, Evan, and myself) remain committed to Terragen as a product, and we look forward to working with all of you in the TG community. I invite you to give us a try.
Render Endlessly,
Ty Christensen
CEO of Pixel Plow
This is turning out to be the best christmas season ever.
As a former tester, I can recommend Pixelplow wholeheartedly. Fast and cheap! Good luck, Ty!
Great news, looks to be a full and complete service. Any chance of a price calculator? If I have an animation of 600 frames and one frame takes an hour to render on my home PC is their a way I can "guestimate" a rough idea of how much it will cost in total.
Cheers
Richard
@TheBadger: Happy New Year!
@Dune: Thanks very much for the plug. Dune really helped us in testing with some tough scenes.
@cyphyr: We're working on that now, actually. Unfortunately, it's difficult to have a comparison from your machine to our farm. I know many render farm services have price calculators, but they are of wildly varying quality and methods. How would you like to indicate the speed of your computer, a CPU list drop-down, a Cinebench score, or some other metric?
One of the completely unique features we have is a per-job budget. Our software automatically monitors the job cost during the run, and if at any point we estimate it will exceed your budget, we suspend the job and notify you immediately. It's pretty darn cool for people that don't want to be surprised by a ridiculous invoice at the end of their render.
While we're on the topic of price, I thought it would be interesting to share a tidbit of info regarding how our pricing methodologies stack up against the competition. A while back, we submitted a test job (tiled still) to our *ahem* competition's farm as well as our own. We started the timer when the job file was submitted (to rule out upload time as a factor) and stopped it when the results were delivered (our case), or the file was made available for download (their case). Times are HH:mm:ss and all prices were converted to USD at time of job run.
Competition @lowest priority
Completion in - 6:33:36 (ready for download)
Cost - $260.33
Pixel Plow @low priority
Delivered in - 8:20:28
Cost- $58.14
Pixel Plow @high priority
Delivered in - 3:33:22
Cost- $191.92
Why is Pixel Plow less than 1/4th the price of the competition, you ask? That's because our competition charges for renting the entire farm for the block of time that your job is running, whereas Pixel Plow only charges for the actual CPU time used to compute your render. If your render, whether still or animation, would leave one or more nodes of a render farm idle at some point during the job, the competition charges you for use of the idle CPU time even though it's of no benefit to you. For example, if farm X had 196 nodes, and you sent them a 200 frame animation where each frame took about an hour to render, farm X would render the first 196 frames on their 196 nodes during hour 1 and the last 4 frames on 4 of their nodes during hour 2. The problem is that they charge for the second hour worth of 192 nodes sitting there doing nothing in addition to the 4 nodes that are doing something useful.
There's a major devil in those details, and that devil has your credit card information.
Speaking about credit cards; my suggestion would be to make available paying through Paypal, perhaps before downloading the render if you want to be sure of payment. I (for one) am not too keen on getting my credit card info out.
this is great, :)
ill most likely use this service on my large Terragen animation project.
Would someone give an example of using this service, if you have used it? If the vendor PixelPlow is reading this, I'm wondering what, for example, a Terragen render of 300 frames of HD would be.
Quote from: Dune on January 15, 2013, 02:31:19 AM
Speaking about credit cards; my suggestion would be to make available paying through Paypal, perhaps before downloading the render if you want to be sure of payment. I (for one) am not too keen on getting my credit card info out.
Good suggestion. We've thought about that before, but it leaves us in a predicament. On one hand, we can't have reasonable assurances of people paying if we issue invoices after the render job is done instead of charging a card on file. That's a major problem with a worldwide market and varying collections laws from country to country...not to mention what a tremendous burden it would be to actually perform collections if the situation arose.
On the other hand, we didn't want to have any pre-pay requirements for our customers. The only way to guarantee payment when PayPal is the method is to take more money from a customer than there job requires before they submit a job. While some farms do that, we have a bit of an ethical problem with that approach. It doesn't seem reasonable to either party to require advance payment, since we wouldn't know how much to require, and our customers wouldn't want to pay in advance for something they may not use.
We may implement a pre-pay system in the future if these issues can be dealt with effectively, but for the time being, stored credit cards are the only method we offer. If it's any comfort, our tech businesses have been storing credit cards safely for over 12 years. Encrypted browser transfer and encrypted information storage in an off-machine database that does not have public Internet access yields the safest holding by today's standards.
Quote from: calico on January 15, 2013, 03:23:23 PM
Would someone give an example of using this service, if you have used it? If the vendor PixelPlow is reading this, I'm wondering what, for example, a Terragen render of 300 frames of HD would be.
Price-wise? If so, that would be entirely dependent on the complexity of the frames, the resolution of the frames, and the number of frames. If you like, you could PM me an example scene file and I could give you a price estimate.
Thanks. I'll sure think about it. Can you take the TG2 format? If so, I'll look something up.
Quote from: digitalis99 on January 15, 2013, 03:55:23 PM
Quote from: calico on January 15, 2013, 03:23:23 PM
Would someone give an example of using this service, if you have used it? If the vendor PixelPlow is reading this, I'm wondering what, for example, a Terragen render of 300 frames of HD would be.
Price-wise? If so, that would be entirely dependent on the complexity of the frames, the resolution of the frames, and the number of frames. If you like, you could PM me an example scene file and I could give you a price estimate.
Quote from: calico on January 15, 2013, 07:01:26 PM
Thanks. I'll sure think about it. Can you take the TG2 format? If so, I'll look something up.
Of course, we support Terragen 2.4 and 2.5.
@Digitalis99
Some questions for you...
I see from your page that you also support Maya. I know this is the TG2 forum, but is there any difference in how it will work or cost from what you have told us here?
Do I need any software to work with your farm? I did not notice any mention of it on your page, so just wanted to be sure.
Are you licensed in seattle?
I am hopping to have some projects ready to render in the spring early summer, is it a guarantee that you will have the best price? Or is it something that can fluctuate based on some factors?
I really like the sound of what you have been saying, and I like the impression I am getting of what kind of company you are striving for. Hope I will get the chance to render with you soon.
Quote from: TheBadger on January 15, 2013, 11:19:07 PM
@Digitalis99
Some questions for you...
I see from your page that you also support Maya. I know this is the TG2 forum, but is there any difference in how it will work or cost from what you have told us here?
Do I need any software to work with your farm? I did not notice any mention of it on your page, so just wanted to be sure.
Are you licensed in seattle?
I am hopping to have some projects ready to render in the spring early summer, is it a guarantee that you will have the best price? Or is it something that can fluctuate based on some factors?
I really like the sound of what you have been saying, and I like the impression I am getting of what kind of company you are striving for. Hope I will get the chance to render with you soon.
All jobs are submitted through the same GUI that runs on our client's machines. You basically pick your render app, point to the folder that contains your scene file, select a few items like priority/budget/email address, and click "Submit". Depending on the app, you may need to prep your scene a bit before submitting it. At the moment, we only support Maya ASCII files, since we can read them and parse the information into our software easily. The functions and features between the apps are as identical as the render apps allow. We support tiled renders in Blender, Maya, Terragen, Lightwave, Modo, and (soon) 3dsmax, for example.
The only pricing differences are all detailed here:
http://www.pixelplow.net/#!/pricing/
Basically, if the render app or engine is licensed in more of a per-node model (like Terragen for example), then we have app or engine-specific fees that are tacked on to our low base rates. Those apps are detailed there on that page, and any changes will show up on that same page. The only need for changes would be additions or removals of apps and engines, or if a vendor decides to change their fee structure on us. Those fees are pass-through licensing straight to the app/engine vendors, so we're just a collector or facilitator of the software rental. We won't be changing them unless the software vendors require it. We have no need to change our base rate, because it's already quite low. This pricing model prevents problems like Blender guys paying for Maya and V-Ray. (!)
Our client-side software is supplied as part of the service, and it does all the heavy lifting. It's also fully managed, so you don't have to mess with keeping it up to date. It makes it easy for us to roll out new features seamlessly to our customer base.
The farm is currently located in Washington State, for several strategic reasons.
A few questions:
1: What is the total node size of your farm in comparison to say well known farms like the Death Star Farm at ILM and the one at Weta Digital?
2: Is your farm capable of handling feature level work with high levels of simulation work e.g 2012, Perfect Storm?
3. Related to question 2! How much storage dose your farm have is it in the GB, TB or PB range?
4. Roughly what would it cost to submit a 2hr feature animation at 129600 frames at 4k cost?
5. Do you have plans for Houdini and Trapcode Plugin Support in future?
Regards to you
Cyber-Angel
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on January 16, 2013, 05:49:04 PM
A few questions:
1: What is the total node size of your farm in comparison to say well known farms like the Death Star Farm at ILM and the one at Weta Digital?
2: Is your farm capable of handling feature level work with high levels of simulation work e.g 2012, Perfect Storm?
3. Related to question 2! How much storage dose your farm have is it in the GB, TB or PB range?
4. Roughly what would it cost to submit a 2hr feature animation at 129600 frames at 4k cost?
5. Do you have plans for Houdini and Trapcode Plugin Support in future?
Regards to you
Cyber-Angel
1) For the time being, details on what constitutes our farm are remaining proprietary. We have too many unique functions in facilities, hardware, and software to be directly comparable to existing farms. That uniqueness is also what makes us better than other farms, hence our desire to maintain information privacy.
2) Absolutely.
3) Due to our operating model, we don't require nearly as much storage as any other farm. We deliver results as they are created and purge them automatically after they are confirmed delivered to our customers. We're not an online backup provider like other farms become, so our storage needs are significantly reduced. Like #1, though, this information remains proprietary for the time being.
4) I can't even begin to answer that question without a lot more information. There are far too many variables that would have an absolutely massive impact on total compute time, and hence total cost. Are you planning on producing such a project now? PM me if you are.
5) Yes, Houdini and Cinema4D are the next two apps to support, which we hope to have in place within a month or two. Plug-in support is going to depend quite a bit on popularity and user demand, so if you're planning on making heavy use of a particular plug-in in conjunction with our service, please let us know.
Thanks!
Thank you for your reply I am thinking about a project, some time in future (Don't have a definitive time-frame yet as it is still in the planing phase) I was just sounding you out to see what might be possible down the line: what with needing to submit test renders and simulation tests and all.
You sound more cost effective than going to a large production house (Not that I'd know how you'd go about that nor whom to talk with about such an enterprise).
Thank you again.
Cyber-Angel
TY
I have not used a render farm yet. So I am sure I will bother you when my job is ready for sending.
I have been working on and off on these projects for a while now. And I have every intention of having them done in the spring. But I really need to plan in advance when thinking about paying for rendering.
Quote from: TheBadger on January 17, 2013, 01:12:06 AM
TY
I have not used a render farm yet. So I am sure I will bother you when my job is ready for sending.
I have been working on and off on these projects for a while now. And I have every intention of having them done in the spring. But I really need to plan in advance when thinking about paying for rendering.
Proper planning is always a good idea. Good luck on the projects!
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on January 16, 2013, 07:22:42 PM
... You sound more cost effective than going to a large production house...
It's funny you mention this, because we're attracting attention from some large production houses as I type. Apparently, they are having a hard time competing with our pricing using their own internal farms. That says quite a bit, I think.
Just a little update on new features:
1) We support and use the naming convention defined in your .tgd's now as regards output file names, both primary and additional. This is very handy for people re-running the same scene multiple times when the outputs are used in compositing applications.
2) We have fully automated budget handling now. Previously, we would only suspend jobs in an automated fashion if the budget estimate exceeded the user-defined amount. Resuming the job required admin intervention on our side. Now, each user can resume jobs directly from the queue manager in our software. Our over budget alert emails (which are sent the instant we estimate your job will cost more than your defined budget) also include the estimated project completion costs. That enables you to make the decision as to whether or not you want to continue the render beyond your budgeted amount, rather than having to guess at how much the total job will cost.
3) Client-side queue management now works correctly on Windows 8. Jobs were always handled correctly, but display of jobs and job status on Win8 was unreliable.
4) Minor GUI additions to make job tracking and status clearer and more informative.
All customers already have the updates available on their machines.
This is great. I might have small job to submit soon!
Like Dune, I am not excited about credit card being the only payment option though.
However I understand your reasoning. Perhaps it would be a bit soothing if the CC details would be deleted after the transaction.
Anyway, looking forward to trying you guys out!
Frank
Quote from: FrankB on January 31, 2013, 01:16:33 PM
This is great. I might have small job to submit soon!
Like Dune, I am not excited about credit card being the only payment option though.
However I understand your reasoning. Perhaps it would be a bit soothing if the CC details would be deleted after the transaction.
Anyway, looking forward to trying you guys out!
Great, we'd love to have you on board, Frank!
Deleting the CC information (which we can do if you're adamant about it) would require you to re-enter it for every job, at which point we'd have to re-validate it to make sure it's chargeable. I'm not aware of technology that exists to enable us to *not* have some sort of stored and chargeable payment method...other than massive pre-payment, of course. ;)
Credit cards are really the only fair way to do this. If better options present themselves, we'll likely implement them.
I just want to chime in that Pixelplow rocks. They're very inexpensive compared to other services in this area, they allow multiple versions of TG to render on, their submission process is clean and easy and you get your frames as soon as they drop off the farm.
I've run thousands of frames through their farm over the last couple of weeks, from quick test renders to full 2k passes, all without a hitch.
Highly recommend.
-Greg
Thanks gregtee! If this forum had a "Like" button, I'd have clicked it.
We've added more features recently. A few of these features work in conjunction with each other to function more effectively. The straight list is:
1) We support frame lists rather than just a single start and end frame (eg. 1,5,17,34,200:367)
2) We render frames and tiles in random order by default. The old method of sequential is available as an option, but random makes all of the cost/budget features much more accurate earlier in the job run.
3) We support a per-job output folder now
4) Budget Goals are available at all priority levels
5) We support changing priority up or down at any time during the job run
6) We now have a running total job cost estimate displayed in the queue manager
7) We deliver frames to the default location if the per-job location is unavailable at time of frame delivery
There are more non-TG features and enhancements, but I won't go into those here.
We're really excited about #6, since it displays a total job cost estimate while your scene is rendering. This feature is independent of the Budget Goal setting, which is a nice automated way to suspend your job if its cost starts to run away. In order to make both money-related features work as effectively as possible, we implemented #2. Most scenes, especially TG scenes, were too easy/quick to render in the beginning of the frame range. That delayed the accuracy of the Budget Goal and Job Cost Estimate features until late in the scene runtime on the farm. Now that we render in random order by default, both estimation-based tools will be closer to reality earlier in the process.
The Job Cost Estimate happens automatically for all jobs, at all priority levels, whether a Budget Goal is specified or not. The Budget Goal is basically just a fully-automated way of having our system "watch" the Job Cost Estimate and immediately suspend your job if that estimate exceeds the Budget Goal you defined. We've given you the ability to override your budget and resume rendering from our queue manager interface, so nothing on our side requires human interaction or involvement.
The frame list feature was requested by multiple users, so that is another addition we're happy about. As well, the per-job output folder is pretty handy if you're doing compositing work on the rendered frames. Between that and honoring the file naming output defined in your TG scene file, successive runs of the same scene can deliver their output to the same location with the same naming scheme. It's an addition that's very helpful in larger workflow environments.
Just a quick update: We added display of the percentage of completion for tiled stills in the queue manager. Now you can see the job progress in real-time whether it's a tiled still or a frame range. This can help you gauge both an ETA for tiled jobs as well as determine whether or not to change job priority.
Non-TG sidenote: If you want us to support Houdini, contact your SideFX rep and tell them to remove their backwards EULA restriction on public render farms for us. We're working with their higher-ups, but they need some persuasion.
Non-TG sidenote 2: C4D support imminent.
There have been many non-TG updates and application support added since my last post, but there's a more important bit of news to convey.
Over the past few months, we've purchased and built-out our own facility to house our farm. This new facility gives us access to copious amounts of inexpensive electricity, year-round nearly free cooling, lots of physical space, and more. Basically, we've moved out of the lab and into the facility that enables us to quickly grow to meet customer demands. We've gone big time.
In addition, we've worked on a spreadsheet that enables studios to easily boil the operating costs of their internal farm down to a per Ghz-hr. rate. This enables them to directly compare with our service rates, apples to apples. In short, unless you only need a few (like less than 10) cheap machines in your farm and run them 24x7, we can always beat the cost of operating an internal render farm. We feel this is extremely important and relevant to the industry as a whole, since most artists and studios make the (incorrect) assumption that rendering on their own farm is "free". No one can compete with our power, cooling, hardware, software, and facilities costs, which is what makes our service so cost effective. Let me know if your studio accountants or owners would like to get a copy of this spreadsheet.
More updates as they come.
Hey TG guys, just a quick update on our farm. We've dropped our Ghz-hr rates by $0.01 across the board. This means our lowest priority render rate is now just $0.01/Ghz-hr. That's right, 1 penny per Ghz-hr. We still have no minimum, no pre-pay requirements, or any other stipulation to prevent you from getting this rate. It's available to everyone, everyday.
Our focus on efficiency at every level of the render farm process has proven very effective in the past year. We've dropped our rates to pass on the cost savings to our users and maintain our position as the price/performance leader.
It's great to hear about all of your updates and upgrades! I would really like to try your service, but unfortunately we are all Mac at our studio. Has there been any development on an osx version of your application, or any work arounds?
Cheers
Quote from: heriosan on February 26, 2014, 09:36:42 PM
It's great to hear about all of your updates and upgrades! I would really like to try your service, but unfortunately we are all Mac at our studio. Has there been any development on an osx version of your application, or any work arounds?
Cheers
Heriosan, unfortunately no. There's been too little interest in a MacOS version of our app to warrant development. Our app footprint and requirements are very small, however, so a WinXP or later virtual machine with meager resources would be enough to get the job done.
We're rolling out 3.1 to our farm tomorrow, by the way. TG up to 3.0 is supported now.
3.1 is out now too. If you did not know it some pretty big changes there.
Quote from: TheBadger on February 26, 2014, 10:22:00 PM
3.1 is out now too. If you did not know it some pretty big changes there.
Yep, which is why we rolled it out today...as I indicated in my message above. ;D
Just an update. We have been running the latest TG 2.5 and 3.1 builds for a while now. I just wanted to make sure folks knew that now that we're the officially recognized render farm for Planetside. ;)