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General => Image Sharing => Topic started by: Hannes on June 06, 2013, 05:08:52 PM

Title: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 06, 2013, 05:08:52 PM
I wanted to make a desert image. No plants, no clouds. At least I have no plants. The ruin and the tents are made by me. The trucks and the gentlemen running around are not (yes, they are there! Look closely!)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: inkydigit on June 06, 2013, 06:10:27 PM
looks great Hannes, maybe the ruins could be a bit more 'crumbly'?
still, love the concept and colouring/pov etc...
you are onto something, I love the barren somplicity that TG does so well (in the right hands of course!)
:)
Jason
edit...the terrain work here too is most excellent, and the sand/dust cloud adds scale and movement too!
:))
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: masonspappy on June 06, 2013, 07:09:04 PM
With one exception, everything is right about this image. Very well done.   
My only quibble is that the ruins look too clean and new.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Dune on June 07, 2013, 01:09:14 AM
An absolute stunning terrain and very convincing. When watching it, you get the urge to get closer and see what's there. The whole settings with tents, dust and ruins is great. My only point would be the color of the ruins; I would give it a more subdued color, like the soil. It stands out just a tad too much, IMHO.
Copied it to my selection of favorites!
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 07, 2013, 01:20:54 AM
Thanks guys. Yes, you are right. The ruins could be a bit more aged looking.

@Ulco, I know what you mean. Kind of weird since the ruins have the exact same colour like the sand. It's probably the bouncing light that makes them look somehow oversaturated?!
After spending a lot of time placing the parts in the terrain, I may have lost the attention for the details. I'm going to improve the ruins and it's colour.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: AP on June 07, 2013, 02:31:18 AM
This looks sweet so far, if you could try running the terrain through the height field node using the shader input and then the erode node, it certainly would give the impression of convincing age here.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: mhaze on June 07, 2013, 02:59:06 AM
Great terrain but I agree with the comments about the ruins , they look too new!
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 07, 2013, 04:25:53 AM
Update: I ruined the ruins and desaturated the colour a little bit. Additionally I attached a closeup crop in the original render size of the archaeological site.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: wiwine on June 07, 2013, 04:51:46 AM
A very nice render. Reminds me the mountains of Petra (Jordania) with "Palmyra-like" ruins.

Just a suggestion : the fake stones have a color that does not totally fit with the rest of the landscape (perhaps to much yellow). And because of supposed human activities, there should not be so much stones inside the perimeter of the ruins :)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 07, 2013, 05:05:21 AM
Funny that you mention Palmyra. When I was searching reference images of ruins I found that Palmyra was exactly what I had in mind.
The colours: this is really weird: in the original image the sand, the ruins and the fake stones have the exact same colour. Nevertheless they all seem different. I already desaturated the ruin's colour, but now I think I leave the scene as it is.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: masonspappy on June 07, 2013, 07:55:43 AM
All-in-all it's a really good image. The rock texturing is photoreal
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 07, 2013, 08:25:34 AM
great terrain, Hannes.

May I sugest using an image map or set of simple shapes to create geometric dig patterns, such as you can see here:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yoZVx644Jak/TE0IYfx3gtI/AAAAAAAAAEU/PspvyizArhQ/s1600/1.jpg
and
http://www.dignubia.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/digsite.jpg

place at and near your ruins, it will really help to drive your intent home. In that regard your tents are very nice. But I think this little extra will help.

That circle of rocks is also very effective in this regard.

Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: wiwine on June 07, 2013, 08:33:20 AM
Quote from: Hannes on June 07, 2013, 05:05:21 AM
The colours: this is really weird: in the original image the sand, the ruins and the fake stones have the exact same colour. Nevertheless they all seem different.
I've noticed this problem on some renders too. Perhaps a effect of light ?
Your fake stones look like... ahem... giant pop-corn scattered in the ruins ?  ;D
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 07, 2013, 01:06:11 PM
@Badger, I think I can read your mind. In the meantime I made an update doing exactly what you suggested without having read your post. I used an image map shader. I am going to improve it still a bit, but I think it's quite nice.
@Wiwine: it's the ancient temple of a cyclops who loves to eat popcorn in front of the TV. ;)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Zairyn Arsyn on June 07, 2013, 02:28:10 PM
cool, neat idea, the modeling work looks good.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 07, 2013, 02:38:28 PM
Im in good company than Hannes! One day I wont just have ideas like you, but I'll make terrains just as pretty too! Maybe. I hope.

I think it looks good, man! I would add more though. A few. And try to soften the edges on some of the sides on some of the digs. The closer shot really helped too. I think its reading a lot better now.

Gonna take it further?
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 07, 2013, 04:14:10 PM
Yes!
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: choronr on June 07, 2013, 06:02:47 PM
Fabulous terrain here. Maybe the ruins might be a shade of gray?
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Dune on June 08, 2013, 02:49:54 AM
Getting better and better. I used an image map to produce some crumbling ruin walls once, set to repeat, but blended by some PF. There's on more thing I'd like to draw your attention to; the light spot in the right hand corner below the tents. Probably dust/cloud, but a bit out of place/strange.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: j meyer on June 08, 2013, 11:42:13 AM
Nice idea and terrain.
Keep going,J.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: efflux on June 08, 2013, 02:01:30 PM
Cool work. This is what we want to see more of.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 09, 2013, 04:51:46 AM
OK, I think this is the final version. I refined the image map for the digging holes (not as easy as I thought) and used a painted shader to draw out the strange dust part Ulco mentioned (thanks Ulco, I was aware of this area, but I was so focused on the ruins that I forgot to care about that).
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: masonspappy on June 09, 2013, 07:03:06 AM
Excellent!
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 09, 2013, 10:36:27 AM
Its good hannes. I downloaded the image and tried a few things on it.

A tight shot on the point of focus is quite nice. Looks like movie quality. And without any "tricks" its got a cinematic feel. Adding DOF manually also gives some nice play.

And again, that terrain is a beauty. You should take that camera and get up in that stuff!  ;D
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 09, 2013, 11:02:50 AM
Thanks a lot!!
@Badger: here is another closeup crop of the original render (postworked but original render size). In this case I would never add DOF, because the camera is so far away that everything would look like toys. If this would be a real camera, DOF wouln't be possible for this shot.
One question to one of your earlier posts in this thread: you were talking about a circle of rocks. What do you mean? I didn't create any circle of rocks ???
Another question: what does "get up in that stuff" mean? Something naughty? ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Dune on June 09, 2013, 12:11:12 PM
One of my favorites ALL TIME.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 09, 2013, 12:39:36 PM
Hello Hannes... So many interesting things to talk about here!

First, on the effect of a DOF on the scene... Well yes, you can easily make the scene look like a photo of a REAL model landscape. As aposed to a photo of a real landscape. TILt shift is ideal for this. BUt It does not have to be so!
Here is a website you may find useful. I only spent a moment finding a relevant conversation, but if you search out discussion in cinematography forums I am sure you will find useful info on topic.
http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=46445

On the circle of rocks:
[attach=1]
Personally, I think some more of this will help the image even more. I would make a couple of rectangles shapes too, near the camp and to the back right of the ruins. I also think the new dig site is nice! But I still think that the scene could use at least one more. Not quite as deep as the first though. I am just talking about real dig sites. I think your render is near perfect.

I edited the download of your image, I wanted to play with it the way an editor would if he got your frames on a film project. Just as way to experiment.
I spent all of 3 min on it and got some great style results by adding a soft tilt shift and doing some color grading.
I will not post it without your permission. Or you can just try somethings your self. But I really don't know how to describe the effect I got in words. Showing you is more effective.

I strongly encourage you to play with your scene a bit more! Make a Triptych! The wide shot, a close shot, and a very close shot. Present the medium shot first, then the close up, and lastly the wide shot. If the stills get the same treatment It will make an awesome montage.

Lastly, I want to point out the film Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark. Actually all 4 movies. In those films you can find some scenes where a tilt lens effect (or something very similar) is used in the way I was talking about at the top of this post. Yes it is stylized, and not exactly "natural". But it looks GREAT. And that is an important consideration. I am for content over esthetics. But I do think esthetics matter... Im not saying your esthetics are bad, NO! I am just writing very broadly now.

Lastly!
QuoteAnother question: what does "get up in that stuff" mean? Something naughty?   

This really made me laugh out loud!  ;D

I think I am just a weirdO Hannes. I spend too much time with software now. I have even begun to talk dirty to TG2 as if that will convince it to give me what I want  :o  ;)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 09, 2013, 04:45:24 PM
...so I still don't know, what "get up in that stuff" means. Please explain that precisely ;).
...if it's OK to the Planetside staff.
...or the PRISM guys...

Thanks for the link about tilt shift you posted. This is very, very interesting! Nevertheless I'm not quite sure, if this would look good for my image. Anyway Badger, please feel free to post your experiments! I'm curious what they look like. As you said, showing is more effective.

Indy has of course been a great inspiration for my image. Maybe you have an example of how tilt shift was used in these movies?!

OK, I may take a short break, but I might consider improving this image a bit more.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 09, 2013, 07:23:58 PM
Ok Hannes you asked for it  ;D. Now the next time Im too tied to work, but don't want to sleep (Which is most of time). I will compose a post reflecting the erotic nature of terrain generation. And then you will know how to "get up in that stuff".  :o

Here is another link on our topic that may be of use to you. I don't know if you will be able to view it fully. But at least the preview video should be available
http://www.digitaltutors.com/tutorial/886-Creating-a-3D-Scene-with-a-2D-Image-in-After-Effects

and one more of potential interest to you:
http://www.digitaltutors.com/tutorial/898-Compositing-a-Lunar-Environment-in-After-Effects-and-Maya

Here is the image after just a few min playing to see what happens. I would say that 1 degree of power less at both the top and bottom on the blur would be just about right. I left it just slightly stronger than I wanted to make sure it was visible for conversations sake.

I am not saying what I did is better. Just that it can be effective, that it can work to drive effect.

Also there is a quick color grading for style, just to see.

[attach=1]

I will look for the indiana jones stuff. I don't have the movies at home, so Ill check on line. I may just go rent them since I brought it up, now I would like to watch them. Depends on time.

And just to be sure:
Sorry if my posting is getting annoying or anything. I just have a lot of fun thinking and talking about this stuff. If I am getting irritating just tell me.  8)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: masonspappy on June 09, 2013, 07:26:39 PM
@Badger - may I ask how you accomplished the blurring? IS that postwork?
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 09, 2013, 07:28:57 PM
Yes photoshop. But you could do the same thing in after effects for an animation.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 09, 2013, 07:36:10 PM
^^ Hannes is the one who got me to understand why I should turn blur off in Terragen. Now I don't like to render blur at all. So I spend a lot of time learning about post tricks. I find it to be a lot of fun for some reason. I think I just like the control. Not that Im great or anything, because Im not. But I do have my fun  8)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 09, 2013, 09:07:03 PM
masonspappy

Oh sorry. Did you mean a step by step? It takes like three min to do. So I can write the steps if someone wants. Its only slightly more complicated than adding a tilt blur. Than 3-4 more stems for the control aspect. Nothing fancy. The instructions to do it in After effects would be more work though.

Just let me know.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Volker Harun on June 10, 2013, 01:58:18 AM
Great work ... and the blending of the ruins got very good. It is still at a level to attract attention without getting lost ... in an outstanding terrain :)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Dune on June 10, 2013, 01:59:59 AM
Blur is such expansive scenes isn't appropriate. I would add it only if you have a very close foreground and the 'camera diafragm' can't handle the sharpness all the way from 50 cm to infinity.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: masonspappy on June 10, 2013, 03:37:32 AM
Quote from: TheBadger on June 09, 2013, 09:07:03 PM
So I can write the steps if someone wants.
Hi Thebadger,
When you have a few minutes, I would really appreciate that.
- MP
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 10, 2013, 05:37:25 AM
I do not disagree with you Ulco, or Hannes . I was playing with the image with an editors mindset, where the intention of the OP image and the end use were not the same.

Imagine that the image is just one frame of a sequence. And that you need to focus the view on the dig site because an explosion will be composited, or something else.

I meant only to explain why it is not always a bad idea to apply control blur on a wide shot, it cannot be a rule.
It is done a lot in film and, often very well. Though often very poorly too.

In my example I would probably remove the bottom portion of the blur. But I think the top portion is rather effective even in this example.

@MP
Ill do that and post a new thread for you :)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 10, 2013, 05:58:45 AM
Thanks a lot, Badger, for your efforts!!! I really appreciate that.
However I have to agree with Ulco. The images I saw in your tilt shift thread were mostly shot from quite close. Even if the blur isn't meant to give some realistic effect but more an artistic one, the eyes are used to see DOF blur in certain situations, which is objects quite close to the lens.

Recently I wanted to take a photograph of a nice landscape with some leaves of a tree blurred in the foreground. It just didn't work until I had the leaves millimeters in front of the camera. I could have zoomed in from a certain distance to get that blur. Anyway it wasn't easy.

Now if you take my image: the camera seems to be hundreds of meters away from the ruin. Any additional blur would make this look like a model of a terrain.
So if I were the director or the editor (hey, I AM the director!!! ;)), I would rather use some other methods to focus on the center of the scene if necessary.

Thanks anyway!!
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 10, 2013, 06:03:05 AM
I think I agree. Its just an interesting conversation/subject is all.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 10, 2013, 06:16:21 AM
Yes, it is indeed!
Here is a quick and dirty example of what I don't want!  :)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 10, 2013, 06:57:54 AM
lol.
You know though, Hannes. That does look really cool! You should composite in a video of your hand reaching in like the hand of God and squishing all the little people with your finger.  :o. I would do this my self but I lake ambition right now ::)

The thing is, that render now looks absolutely real. A photo. Just a photo of a little model. Its an interesting thing, by making your model look fake, you made your render look completely real. There must be away to use this, and yet avoid the issues you are bringing up.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 10, 2013, 09:49:51 AM
...just for fun...
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 10, 2013, 10:18:55 AM
 ;D Thats really fun! Looks great too. YOu did a nice job extracting the hand from the rest of the photo.

This gives me lots of ideas Hannes.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Walli on June 10, 2013, 11:12:20 AM
Tiltshift photography ;-)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 10, 2013, 01:53:12 PM
Couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Dune on June 11, 2013, 02:30:35 AM
 ;D ;D ;D :o
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Walli on June 11, 2013, 02:52:06 AM
spitzenklasse, sehr fein!

The ruins do blend better into the envrionment, compared to earlier versions. Very nice!
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Hannes on June 11, 2013, 04:04:18 AM
Last iteration. I modified the image map a bit more.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Dune on June 11, 2013, 05:37:17 AM
Very fine indeed. A well accomplished task! Up to the next... or an animation?
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: TheBadger on June 11, 2013, 10:22:32 AM
I like the theater!

No doubt this is a great terrain.
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: Icegrip on June 12, 2013, 11:37:22 AM
Dang -looking great! :)
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: ra on June 12, 2013, 04:33:41 PM
Great! Great! Great! I can hear that Indiana Jones theme in my head...  ;D
Title: Re: Archaeology
Post by: londonsmee on June 25, 2013, 09:36:52 AM
Love the look the stone, like looking back down history