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General => Image Sharing => Topic started by: cyphyr on November 09, 2013, 01:19:08 PM

Title: Reef WIP
Post by: cyphyr on November 09, 2013, 01:19:08 PM
Plenty still to do on this :)
I know the lighting is more than just a bit off! It's about ten times too clear!
I want to make the canyon to  the right darker and the foreground shadowed area more illuminated.
When I get something I'm happy with, layout and lighting wise, I want to try using the depth pass to fade our the different colour channels separately. It should work but it will require somehead scratching to figure out :)
Cheers
Richard
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: gregtee on November 09, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
You're off to good start but honestly I'd lose the building unless you're willing to build in a lot of coral buildup detail to the model outside of Terragen that you'll have trouble getting inside it.  I've also learned from experience that these types of deeper water underwater scenes tend to look better when the light comes from above unless you're dealing with very shallow water environments, then raking the angle like a traditional landscape can work. 

Having said all that I like that more here are starting to do this kind of stuff.  It's something that I've been giving a lot of thought to lately in TG and I'm sure we could all learn stuff from each other.

-Greg
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: Dune on November 10, 2013, 04:21:50 AM
Yes, more light from above would make it better I think. Maybe you should put the building further to the back, more vague. And maybe you can use the ivy generator to grow 'something green' all over it. I agree it's too clean. But I like the explosion of light. You probably didn't even need a water shader here  ;)
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: fleetwood on November 10, 2013, 12:45:53 PM
Definitely nice start, draws you in.
Wonder what it would look like with the main light shadows turned off and a real weak light casting the shadows, or maybe ridiculously wide soft shadows.
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: cyphyr on November 10, 2013, 01:46:23 PM
Ok, you absolutely right about the temple model. Mother said it reminded her of a goldfish bowl! It has to go, but can stay as a useful object to do some more tests with ... for now.

Looking at the Google image searchimages  (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=coral+reef&client=firefox-a&hs=66v&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=D9J_UrfEN82ihgfgloDYDg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=888#imgdii=_)of coral reefs I've become convinced many of the really bright ones are done with flash photography but nonetheless you can see the light fall off very convincingly.
The only way to do this in Terragen will be to use the render elements and use a grey scale depth pass to fade out the saturation of the coral as it recedes into the distance. Below is a first attempt at this. It works (technically) but needs plenty more effort. Following on from this I will need to find out a way of doing the same de-saturation but on a per channel basis.
Cheers
Richard
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: fleetwood on November 10, 2013, 02:14:11 PM
You could use a Distance Shader input into a Adjust Saturation Colour function and it will fade the saturation as distance increases.
You could set the Distance Shader to use either the Z-depth or Spherical distance.
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: cyphyr on November 10, 2013, 02:37:23 PM
That will work for planet surfaces (thankyou, this may be useful) but not for population surfaces. That will have to be done with modified depth passes.
Richard
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: gregtee on November 10, 2013, 03:23:13 PM
You are exactly correct there Richard with regards to the falloff technique.  That's how I've always done underwater stuff.  Renders are always done full RGB and then later in comp we attenuate the ref and green out according to distance from camera and add the fogging effects  There's a lot of variables involved on how much attenuation you get but red always attenuates first, followed by green.  It looks like you're off to a great start here. 

I was messing with this last night and finally got frustrated as I couldn't get the Snell's Window effect to work correctly no matter what I tried though I've seen it done on Dune's renders so I know it's possible. 

-Greg

Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: gregtee on November 10, 2013, 03:33:03 PM
Here's a really good example of red attenuation, followed by green, which then gives way to full blue only.  From this example, red is gone about 4-5 meters away from camera as the image clearly shifts to green/blue.  About another 7-8 meters away the green gives way to solid blue, which eventually forms the backdrop color.   

I use Nuke to process the depth mattes to do this but you can use anything these days.

Another example is the Snell's Window effect looking straight up past the divers which is what's presently kicking my ass. 
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: cyphyr on November 10, 2013, 04:38:57 PM
Slight update.
Not processing the channels separately yet ... Used the depth pass to add some blur and a slight kick back on the levels.
Depth pass is so very useful :)
Richard
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: kaedorg on November 11, 2013, 01:21:56 AM
As a retired Padi diving instructor and a professional underwater photographer i bring you here some informations about colours and luminosity underwater.

                         Absorption

Light intensity                    Depth in meters                     Disappearance of colours
           40%                                1 m                                            infrared
                                                   5 m                                            red
            14%                               10 to 15 m                                oranged
            7%                                 15 to 25 m                                Yellow
            1.5%                               25 to 60 m                                Purple / then Blue/Green
            1%                                  About 70 m                               monochrome (end of colours)

Another point is that with a mask : things seem closer by 3/4 of the distance.
Ex : a Fish at 1 m from you will seem to be at 0.75 m

And things also seem bigger by 4/3 of the size
Ex : A Fish 1m long will seem to be 1.33 m long

David
           
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: gregtee on November 11, 2013, 01:33:51 AM
Awesome stats!  Now if we can get the Planetside team to make an underwater "atmosphere" that mimics these values. 

Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: Dune on November 11, 2013, 01:49:56 AM
This is really cutting wood, guys! I'm a bit frustrated I don't have time to dive into it again as well  :( I'll tell you that the Snell's window effect in my render was a (TG) trick, I don't think it can be done by just the water, etc.

Regarding the color falloff; using a (de)saturation node should be possible to be used on models as well, theoretically. Maybe I'll experiment a little with that.

EDIT: works.
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: DannyG on November 11, 2013, 12:36:22 PM
Nice Richard! I like the colors and camera placement
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: cyphyr on November 11, 2013, 03:46:13 PM
Meh! Forgot the depth pass!
Re-rendering with alterations ...
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: Upon Infinity on November 11, 2013, 03:56:12 PM
Yep.  That's the stuff.  I feel it needs something on the left, like a shark or something in the shadows.  Feels like there's a little too much dead space there.
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: cyphyr on November 11, 2013, 08:42:10 PM
Two more, one with some depth processing on the saturation.
I think I need to practice the technique some more and having blocks of different coloured coral will help show up the effect.
The composition needs some work too and I want toge a lot more coral on the outcrops.
Cheers
Richard
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: Upon Infinity on November 11, 2013, 10:39:50 PM
That's more like it!  I think anything you do after this is just perfectionism creeping in.  If I'd add or change anything at this point, I'd let a little light hit the statue a bit.  My eye keeps getting drawn to that point and frustrated that it can't see more.  Other than that, great work!
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: Jo Kariboo on November 12, 2013, 12:59:54 AM
Very nice and realistic vegetations ! Do you create the vegetations ?
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: Dune on November 12, 2013, 03:08:38 AM
These are very nice, Richard! I like the colorful fish and corals, really gives it a lot of depth. The first one of the two is better, a bit of mystery adds to the scene. In that respect I disagree with UponInfinity; the statue is a mystery, I'd keep it that way. Now for some blur in the distance!

Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: mhaze on November 12, 2013, 03:15:06 AM
The second one is my favorite - great work!
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: TheBadger on November 12, 2013, 12:18:23 PM
Is that a statue of Athena? In any case, can you share where it came from?
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: cyphyr on November 12, 2013, 03:14:23 PM
Quote from: TheBadger on November 12, 2013, 12:18:23 PM
Is that a statue of Athena? In any case, can you share where it came from?
Not sure if it's supposed to be Athena ... It's named "Gera apophiose" and comes from Archive3D (http://archive3d.net/?a=download&id=0ea984c5).
Richard
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: gregtee on November 12, 2013, 06:50:28 PM
Really starting to come together. 
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: cyphyr on November 13, 2013, 03:47:44 PM
Another version, still not quite right.
The thing with the light attenuation s that is not like de-saturation, similar but not the same. The colour channels are bled out, but not to grey but to the overall colour of the water column at that point.
Thanks kaedorg for the info on colour depth change.
I'm doing another render now with including some "Macbeth Boards" to see if I can get a better handle on it.
Cheers
Richard
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: gregtee on November 13, 2013, 04:11:06 PM
Your snell's window should be more cyan with white for the brightest areas around the sun.  Right now it's very magenta which indicates too much red.  The sense of depth overall though is really nice. 

Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: Dune on November 14, 2013, 03:13:04 AM
I didn't know the term 'attenuation', but if you want the color channels to bleed out, you could probably use the convert 'blue nodes' plus a color adjust or surface layer blended by a (or more) distance shader(s) to decrease each channel, before putting them together again.
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: mhaze on November 14, 2013, 06:24:33 AM
Impressive!
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: cyphyr on November 16, 2013, 06:06:11 AM
Of course you have depth pass that is used to de-saturate the background also has to be blurred separately so it can then be used to add some depth blur ...
Getting more physically accurate but I think I have lost some of the drama ... which is ok since there wasn't much there in the first place :)
Cheers
Richard
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: Dune on November 16, 2013, 06:14:27 AM
I still like it very much! Maybe the blur is slightly too much... I was thinking the same with mine. Just a little may be enough.
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: cyphyr on November 16, 2013, 06:37:52 AM
Now with added spectacular ... :)
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: bla bla 2 on November 16, 2013, 07:07:12 AM
Sympas  :D
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: gregtee on November 16, 2013, 02:36:34 PM
Looking great.  I agree with previous comments that the defocus effect is probably a little too heavy still.   The colors of the water column overall seems a little too magenta as well, but the sense of depth is very good.  All the little critters are great too.  Where did you find all the little reef fish?
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: Kadri on November 16, 2013, 06:34:46 PM

Looks nice Richard !

The DOF makes it nearly kinda look like a miniature for me .
But other then this i like these images very much Richard.
Title: Re: Reef WIP
Post by: jo on November 18, 2013, 04:31:11 AM
Very cool stuff Richard :-)