This is a continuation of the thread: http://www.planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,18974.msg184913.html#msg184913 . A number of good suggestions were made the first time around; namely: add mud on the vehicle, add a darker shadow beneath the vehicle, add tracks behind the truck (thanks Dune), and sink it's tires into the mud.
The darker shadow under the truck was produced by adding a second sun at 90 degrees elevation. I liked Dune's idea of raising the terrain in order to lower the truck's tires into the mud - this was easier than making changes to the components of the truck.
The odd angle of the truck and the two sets of tracks are the result of its skidding and sliding along the way barely missing the ditch. It was suggested to adjust the tracks; but, after messing around with this, I felt that it was better off to leave it alone as is.
Many thanks to Dune and j meyer for their help along the way.
Well done! Great render, I like it a lot ;)
Awesome! :D
Glad to see your progress on this one.
There are two things though,which are not to advantage
from my point of view.
First is the additional sun an absolute no-no,kills any realism.
Second there should be tracks behind the frontwheels,too,methinks.
The second might be neglectable.
Sorry for being picky,but it's such a nice pic.
Quote from: j meyer on October 14, 2014, 01:08:06 PM
Glad to see your progress on this one.
There are two things though,which are not to advantage
from my point of view.
First is the additional sun an absolute no-no,kills any realism.
Second there should be tracks behind the frontwheels,too,methinks.
The second might be neglectable.
Sorry for being picky,but it's such a nice pic.
Thanks Jochen. As for the second sun, for me, it was the only way to get a darker shadow under the truck. As for the tracks, all four tracks behind the truck are from the front and rear wheels - the vehicle is sliding down and around the curve with the rear end swinging out to the driver's left.
Very nice
I've experimented using 2 suns for adding extra shade around trees in a similar way. I found using a very wide soft shadow (30-45°) looks a lot more believable.
Much improved - nice job.
This looks quite nice I think. The wet, slick, shiny skidmarks are particularly great (though indeed there needs to be one under the front tires too). I think the water in the ditch is maybe too transparent, either it should be a bit murky, or maybe just darken the surface below the waterline. But otherwise it's a beautiful scene.
I agree though that a 2nd sun is not a good solution and I'll explain why. Adding a 2nd light source *can never make shadows darker*. Think about it: you are adding *more* light. It only *appears* darker because the rest of the scene is lighter and there is a lighter 2nd shadow. So *by comparison* it's darker, but it's not actually a darker shadow than in your original image! It's like this classic illusion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checker_shadow_illusion
What I would suggest is making sure that GISD is enabled, then keep at the defaults (bounce and occlusion both at 1), but increase Radius (in pixels) to 50 or 100 and uncheck Falloff. That should darken the underside of the vehicle a fair amount (it will also darken other shadow areas of course). This is a quick way that does not impact render time results significantly.
However what you're really seeing with the underside of the vehicle being too light is the result of low GI accuracy, so for best results you'll want to increase GI Cache Detail and Sample Quality. What are they set at now? If they're not 4 or higher, try values of 4/4 (four for both) or 6/6. The higher you can go, the better that area under the vehicle will darken up. Still, GISD is going to be a much faster way to approximate it, even though it's less accurate without higher cache detail and sample quality. Some combination of the two may be best, e.g. GI at 4/4 with GISD at pixel radius 100 and no falloff.
- Oshyan
Hi Oshyan,
Thanks for your review, comments and suggestions.
Regarding the tracks under the front tires: You can hardly see under the front tires. Ulco had given me some tips on this; but frankly, I had worked on this image so long that I was kind of frustrated to go on with it any further. His information was solid and I should have followed it ...maybe soon again. Yes, I thought I got the water more murky by adjusting the Volume 1 color making it darker. But, I guess it wasn't enough. I like your idea of darkening the surface below only so long as it doesn't affect the surfaces elsewhere. I'm glad you like the overall scene; thank you.
Thanks for your comprehensive explanation regarding avoiding the use of a 2nd sun here. I've noted your suggested set up and will give it a try. Will be back to you later.
Bob
Glad to be of potential help Bob. Just to clarify, I don't like the second sun approach partly for ideological reasons - it frustrates me to have to do something unrealistic to get a good result - but I also understand that tricks *are* sometimes necessary to deal with functionality that Terragen doesn't have, etc. The reason I brought up alternatives here is that I do feel the additional sun is causing other problems in your image and bringing down the realism, so while it is potentially helping with one issue, I think it has a larger negative affect than positive. That's just my view of course. But hopefully with the methods I've outlined you can find a method that balances everything a bit better and achieves the results you want.
- Oshyan
Thank you again Oshyan. I've had a mind frazzling day and are putting off any TG work this evening; but, will be back at it tomorrow morning when my mind is fresh - and, will once again try to employ Ulco's suggestions regarding the tracks.
This forum is the best!
Great image, Bob! The muddy road looks absolutely convincing. Agree about the track of the front wheels but it seems that the car rotated a bit, so that these tracks aren't visible from this point of view (?).
And you should really give it a try using Oshyan's tipps. I'm sure using a second sun won't help here (or anywhere else...). GISD has so much potential. Looking forward to the next iteration.
Quote from: Hannes on October 15, 2014, 09:20:23 AM
Great image, Bob! The muddy road looks absolutely convincing. Agree about the track of the front wheels but it seems that the car rotated a bit, so that these tracks aren't visible from this point of view (?).
And you should really give it a try using Oshyan's tipps. I'm sure using a second sun won't help here (or anywhere else...). GISD has so much potential. Looking forward to the next iteration.
Thank you Hannes. I'll be testing the suggestions today. Hopefully we'll make it better.
Very nice wet road mud road Bob :)
If you like to have shadows darker you can indeed play with GISD as suggested and explained before.
Before the new GISD we had to resort to different solutions and I still stick to those quite often.
For example, if you like darker shadows then you can reduce the "strength on surfaces" parameter in the "enviro light" node.
Like changing the GISD settings this will also affect all other shadow areas.
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on October 15, 2014, 11:43:35 AM
Very nice wet road mud road Bob :)
If you like to have shadows darker you can indeed play with GISD as suggested and explained before.
Before the new GISD we had to resort to different solutions and I still stick to those quite often.
For example, if you like darker shadows then you can reduce the "strength on surfaces" parameter in the "enviro light" node.
Like changing the GISD settings this will also affect all other shadow areas.
Thanks Martin, I was about to post a test of the results of the settings suggested by Oshyan. I will consider your suggestion before I go into another final render.
Here is a low quality test (cropped) render of the settings suggested by Oshyan. My settings are GI cache detail 5, GI sample quality 5, Occlusion weight 1. Bounce to the ounce 1 and Radius (in pixels) 75.
I did not add the plants so as to save some time here.
That looks pretty good! Does it take longer to render than 'normal'?
A most promising test render :)
Quote from: Dune on October 15, 2014, 12:06:29 PM
That looks pretty good! Does it take longer to render than 'normal'?
Yes, judging by the low quality cropped image, it took almost twice as long to render.
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on October 15, 2014, 12:08:20 PM
A most promising test render :)
Thank you. I will address the water in the verge/gully so as to achieve some more murkiness.
Question to Ulco: What do you think of the tracks behind the truck?
You could try to fiddle with the GICache and detail, at 4 maybe that faster and good enough. Tracks look ok to me. You could try to move the front wheel tracks a little eastward, but you'll probably take the hindwheels tracks with it as well, as they are linked. If you, move the hind wheel tracks back west. As I said, it's quite fiddly to get it perfect, especially since the car is on a skidding angle. Straight driving is easier ;)
Quote from: Dune on October 15, 2014, 12:17:17 PM
You could try to fiddle with the GICache and detail, at 4 maybe that faster and good enough. Tracks look ok to me. You could try to move the front wheel tracks a little eastward, but you'll probably take the hindwheels tracks with it as well, as they are linked. If you, move the hind wheel tracks back west. As I said, it's quite fiddly to get it perfect, especially since the car is on a skidding angle. Straight driving is easier ;)
Thanks Ulco, I'll try lowering the GI cache and detail to 4 and check the results. Glad to hear the tracks look presentable. And, I agree that the straight driving position would have been easier; however, the skidding accentuates the wet, muddy road.
Much better!
Definitely the right direction now.
Quote from: j meyer on October 15, 2014, 12:27:39 PM
Much better!
Definitely the right direction now.
Thanks Jochen. A few more minor tweaks and my 7 year old machine will get another workout.
Bob that crop already looks fantastic! What an improvement!
Quote from: Hannes on October 15, 2014, 01:18:08 PM
Bob that crop already looks fantastic! What an improvement!
Thank you Hannes. I'm just doing one more quick render, lower quality test; and if satisfactory, will go into another final, final render.
I agree, definite improvement with the new lighting/shadow solution. I find it even a bit darker than it needs to be, you could reduce GI to 3/3 even, and perhaps bring GISD to 50px radius (if falloff is disabled) to strike a better balance. But if you like it that dark, then I agree 4/4 should be fine still, and save you a bit of render time.
Well done!
- Oshyan
your render gettin' pretty photo-realistic That crop render is very cool ;)
Quote from: Oshyan on October 15, 2014, 03:44:25 PM
I agree, definite improvement with the new lighting/shadow solution. I find it even a bit darker than it needs to be, you could reduce GI to 3/3 even, and perhaps bring GISD to 50px radius (if falloff is disabled) to strike a better balance. But if you like it that dark, then I agree 4/4 should be fine still, and save you a bit of render time.
Well done!
- Oshyan
I was waiting for your call, thanks Oshyan. Yes, I'll try for a bit lighter; but, not much. I'm ready for another final ...then, put it to bed. The last full render was 28+ hours. Would be good if it will be reduced.
Quote from: archonforest on October 15, 2014, 04:51:21 PM
your render gettin' pretty photo-realistic That crop render is very cool ;)
Thank you archonforest; finally nearing the end of this project.
Very nice improvement, looking forward to the finale!
Quote from: zaxxon on October 15, 2014, 09:27:34 PM
Very nice improvement, looking forward to the finale!
Thank you zaxxon, I've made one more test to be sure of the new settings.
Here is another quick test to be sure of the darker settings; I kind of like them, But note, the small orange lights on the front of the truck did not show up. This is crazy; they did show up on the earlier smaller crop of the truck alone ...???
It might be a detail/resolution issue as they're quite small (if they are what I think you are referring to in the previous image).
I think the current level of shadow darkness looks pretty good, and realistic. I do see that the line along the water's edge appears to be back? Also not sure if you did anything about making the water in the ditch less transparent (I think some murky, muddy water could be good actually), or darkening the surface under the water...
Overall looks good.
- Oshyan
very good image Bob your skills have grown greatly - always look foreward to seeing what is next
david
Quote from: Oshyan on October 15, 2014, 10:53:41 PM
It might be a detail/resolution issue as they're quite small (if they are what I think you are referring to in the previous image).
I think the current level of shadow darkness looks pretty good, and realistic. I do see that the line along the water's edge appears to be back? Also not sure if you did anything about making the water in the ditch less transparent (I think some murky, muddy water could be good actually), or darkening the surface under the water...
Overall looks good.
- Oshyan
This cropped render was made at low quality (0.225/0.2). Maybe when I do the final at 0.77/0.7, those small lights may appear. Yes, the water line in the verge/gully is back as a result of the tracks I think. On the last full render, I took the .bmp and saved as a .jpg; and, went ahead and clone-stamped the water line out.
Yes, I darkened the Sub-surface Volume 1 color (dark brownish) but it didn't do much good. I don't want to change the surface under water as it will have a negative effect elsewhere.
Quote from: folder on October 16, 2014, 12:30:15 AM
very good image Bob your skills have grown greatly - always look foreward to seeing what is next
david
Thanks David. Really, if it wasn't for the good help and patience by many of the fellows here on the forum, I'd be taking up another hobby.
Try increasing Volume 1 Density to about 5 then try a color of R: 188, G: 171, B: 141 (or H:38, S:24, B: 73). A medium-ish brown. Don't go too dark I'd say. That should give you fairly natural-looking muddy water, which would seem to fit your scene I think. If it's too murky for your taste, reduce Volume1 density, but not too much. It should (IMO) be semi-opaque.
- Oshyan
Quote from: Oshyan on October 16, 2014, 01:38:56 AM
Try increasing Volume 1 Density to about 5 then try a color of R: 188, G: 171, B: 141 (or H:38, S:24, B: 73). A medium-ish brown. Don't go too dark I'd say. That should give you fairly natural-looking muddy water, which would seem to fit your scene I think. If it's too murky for your taste, reduce Volume1 density, but not too much. It should (IMO) be semi-opaque.
- Oshyan
Thank you Oshyan. Good suggestion, I will give that a try. Right now I was playing with the decay tint color to see what comes up - it is rendering right now. I won't save and try your numbers. Hopefully I'll get this done before bedtime; otherwise I'll be back tomorrow.
Bob
Another easy option is to add a surface shader after the water shader and have it at 0.2 coverage with some murky color (without or with fractal breakup, for smooth or fractalized look).
Quote from: Dune on October 16, 2014, 02:47:53 AM
Another easy option is to add a surface shader after the water shader and have it at 0.2 coverage with some murky color (without or with fractal breakup, for smooth or fractalized look).
Thank you Ulco, looks like my late night will be extended with some tests. Rendering right now and will be doing some comparisons. We're getting close to the final. And, thank you so much for all your help along the way to help form this project.
Bob
You're welcome, Bob. Anyway, you can always croprender the gully bit and paste over.
Quote from: Dune on October 16, 2014, 02:57:39 AM
You're welcome, Bob. Anyway, you can always croprender the gully bit and paste over.
Just finished the test render; and, the results looks a bit 'milky'. Will try your suggestion next. May not have results till tomorrow morning. Will get back to you.
Really getting into the nitty gritty here Bob. Some interesting things your trying to work out. Nice image by the way.
This is fabulous, Bob - one of the most realistic renders using an imported (non-foliage!) object I've seen :)
Quote from: TheBadger on October 16, 2014, 06:31:13 AM
Really getting into the nitty gritty here Bob. Some interesting things your trying to work out. Nice image by the way.
Thanks Michael, we're getting close.
Quote from: EoinArmstrong on October 16, 2014, 06:33:52 AM
This is fabulous, Bob - one of the most realistic renders using an imported (non-foliage!) object I've seen :)
Thank you Eoin. I'm just about ready to start the final render once again; hopefully this time for good. BTW, haven't seen any recent work from you ...what's up?
Just finished the 'murkey' water in the gully. The results look promising. I used a combination of Ulco's and Oshyan's suggestions. I think we're there. With Oshyan's idea I only set the Volume 1 density to 0.8. With Ulco's idea, I used the same color as Oshyan's except I darkened it a bit. Full render time is getting close.
Also, see the truck's orange lights are back!
That gets better and better! Fantastic, Bob. To my taste the water could be even a bit murkier (is it really "murkier"? Or more murky?...)
Quote from: Hannes on October 16, 2014, 12:53:18 PM
That gets better and better! Fantastic, Bob. To my taste the water could be even a bit murkier (is it really "murkier"? Or more murky?...)
Thanks Hannes. I think "(even) more murky" is better suited for the mass. I might take you up on your suggestion. With the low sun, I don't think it will take much more tweaking.
The water is a definite improvement. But to my mind, as Hannes says, murky (or "milky" as you earlier put it), is kind of the intent to my mind, but it's up to you what you prefer. This is what I had in mind:
http://adelineang.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/dobson19.jpg
http://mavdisk.mnsu.edu/larsop2/geog101/Fluvial/LoadSuspended.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_PrEaBVvhsg4/TI2qNhQtoVI/AAAAAAAAGS8/GkPbaabnQP8/s1600/100_2207.JPG
- Oshyan
Quote from: Oshyan on October 16, 2014, 02:26:40 PM
The water is a definite improvement. But to my mind, as Hannes says, murky (or "milky" as you earlier put it), is kind of the intent to my mind, but it's up to you what you prefer. This is what I had in mind:
http://adelineang.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/dobson19.jpg
http://mavdisk.mnsu.edu/larsop2/geog101/Fluvial/LoadSuspended.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_PrEaBVvhsg4/TI2qNhQtoVI/AAAAAAAAGS8/GkPbaabnQP8/s1600/100_2207.JPG
- Oshyan
Thanks Oshyan; yes, this reminds me of what we saw here in the Phoenix metro areas over the past, recent weeks. Totally opaque, sandy colored water from the flash floods - even down our main streets; what a mess.
I'll try a bit more opacity for the gully and see how it goes. Thank you again for all your help here.
My pleasure. Can't wait to see the final, this is a great scene!
- Oshyan
It has been a long road, but I think we finally made it.
Improvements made:
• Mud added to the sides and front of vehicle.
• Tires sunk into the mud.
• Tracks added behind vehicle.
• A darker shadow now appears below vehicle.
• Water in the gully now is murky.
• GISD has been tweaked for an overall improvement in appearance.
Many thanks again to Dune (for the Mountain Road file through NWDA and many additional bits of information), Jochen (for the LR110 truck and help with getting it right) and Oshyan (for his help and ideas to get the overall image to look at best quality).
Looks nice Bob.
The left road wall looks a little dark.
Quote from: Kadri on October 18, 2014, 01:56:48 AM
Looks nice Bob.
The left road wall looks a little dark.
Thanks Kadri. I believe the darkness overall is due to the GISD changes made.
really very well done Bob!
Quote from: masonspappy on October 18, 2014, 02:22:00 AM
really very well done Bob!
Thank you. Been able to glean a lot of information throughout the development of the image that will be useful for future work - thanks to all.
Great final, Bob! There's one thing that draws my attention; the subtle bleached lines/tracks that extend forwards from the tracks we added behind the wheels. It might be because the SSS black mask masking them out in front of the vehicle is not pure black. Or reflection of the road puddles is somehow interfered with by the added surface shaders with additional tracks. Something like that. But it's not important, just an observation.
Yea,verily yea!
Great final indeed.
Quote from: Dune on October 18, 2014, 04:13:17 AM
Great final, Bob! There's one thing that draws my attention; the subtle bleached lines/tracks that extend forwards from the tracks we added behind the wheels. It might be because the SSS black mask masking them out in front of the vehicle is not pure black. Or reflection of the road puddles is somehow interfered with by the added surface shaders with additional tracks. Something like that. But it's not important, just an observation.
Thanks very much Ulco. This image along with a gazillion notes will go into a special folder for future reference.
Yes, I think I see the what you are referring to regarding the bleached lines. I also noted a strange reflection on the hood of the vehicle on its right side - no idea where that came from.
Quote from: j meyer on October 18, 2014, 11:12:50 AM
Yea,verily yea!
Great final indeed.
Thanks Jochen, that is what I yelled as the final render was completed. And, really appreciate your help getting the LR110 elements to come together.
Really excellent final result Bob! I think you nailed it and addressed pretty much all feedback really well. That's often hard to do, so this is impressive. I think this is one of your most realistic images to date, and certainly one of the more realistic integrations of a vehicle I've seen in TG lately.
- Oshyan
Quote from: Oshyan on October 19, 2014, 05:40:23 PM
Really excellent final result Bob! I think you nailed it and addressed pretty much all feedback really well. That's often hard to do, so this is impressive. I think this is one of your most realistic images to date, and certainly one of the more realistic integrations of a vehicle I've seen in TG lately.
- Oshyan
Thank you so much for your encouraging comments here Oshyan. And many thanks to Ulco for helping me much along the way.
Your words have fired my enthusiasm and look forward to getting on to a new project.
Bob
I still love the way the fore on the right looks, best. Just sets the whole mood for the rest of the scene for me.
Quotelook forward to getting on to a new project.
Maybe your next one will take us to Ireland (I don't think anyone has done that yet?), or some fictional place like that. I have heard some fairy tails about a magical land people call New Zealand, wherever that is supposed to be.
Where you gonna go Bob?
Quote from: TheBadger on October 23, 2014, 11:40:29 PM
I still love the way the fore on the right looks, best. Just sets the whole mood for the rest of the scene for me.
Quotelook forward to getting on to a new project.
Maybe your next one will take us to Ireland (I don't think anyone has done that yet?), or some fictional place like that. I have heard some fairy tails about a magical land people call New Zealand, wherever that is supposed to be.
Where you gonna go Bob?
Thank you Michael, my thoughts are still rumbling ...we'll get there soon. The day after I posted the final render, my system went down while I was trying to clean up and back up. My system was in the shop from Monday until today. Just now getting everything back to normal. All my passwords to my favorite sites had to be put in again. Hope someday soon we can go to fingerprints or iris scans.
I like the beauty of Ireland, Scotland and New Zealand. As you know, deserts have been my favorite. Need to temporarily get out and explore other places.
Hang in there. I need to get this weekend out of the way: Wifey and I are celebrating 58 years of married life ...seems like yesterday! But then, you know what a crappy day yesterday was?
Just kidding,
Bob
Wifey and I are celebrating 58 years of married life ...
[/quote]
Wow that is nice! Congrats :)
Quote from: archonforest on October 24, 2014, 12:07:58 AM
Wifey and I are celebrating 58 years of married life ...
Wow that is nice! Congrats :)
[/quote]
Thanks archonforest. Can't realize how all these years have gone by so fast.
Yes, life goes by like a gust of wind. Better enjoy it! Quoting my grandma who was 98 when she died.
@Bob: Ah I dunno - laziness; other priorities; lack of self-esteem (in that I'm too competitive and you guys beat my ass every time) - all of it my own fault! I still keep abreast of what's being done, and hope sometime to ditch my sillier baggage and just make pretty pictures :)
Great image, the muddy part is really brilliant work.
Quote from: Dune on October 24, 2014, 04:58:26 AM
Yes, life goes by like a gust of wind. Better enjoy it! Quoting my grandma who was 98 when she died.
I sure am trying Ulco. My Grandma was from Siberia, Russia; and, moved here in Arizona from Chicago in the early nineties. She passed in '96 when she was 101.
Quote from: EoinArmstrong on October 24, 2014, 10:23:58 AM
@Bob: Ah I dunno - laziness; other priorities; lack of self-esteem (in that I'm too competitive and you guys beat my ass every time) - all of it my own fault! I still keep abreast of what's being done, and hope sometime to ditch my sillier baggage and just make pretty pictures :)
We all know of your past beautiful capabilities Eoin; and, are patiently waiting to see you back again creating in your unique style.
Quote from: alessandro on October 26, 2014, 06:52:15 AM
Great image, the muddy part is really brilliant work.
Thank you alessandro. I had a lot of help here as earlier mentioned ...one of the best learning experiences per image I've had to date.
Nice final outcome, Bob. It's easy to forget how hard it is to put everything together in a scene that looks real as opposed to placing a few objects in front of the camera in a landscape randomly generated by a couple of powerfractals. The truck alone would give me fits! :0
Quote from: otakar on October 28, 2014, 04:15:46 PM
Nice final outcome, Bob. It's easy to forget how hard it is to put everything together in a scene that looks real as opposed to placing a few objects in front of the camera in a landscape randomly generated by a couple of powerfractals. The truck alone would give me fits! :0
Thanks otakar. The first pleasing point of view in a new project will turn into a myriad of tweaks and adjustments such that one will find that realism is like the carrot and the stick ...you're never done! Each day brings a fresh start hoping to achieve a final outcome. Thoughts and suggestions by others who are far more competent are a Godsend - thank goodness for this forum.
Yes, the truck also was a challenge trying to get certain elements of it to show up properly ...a great learning experience.
Really great journey Bob, I enjoyed this evolving... 5 star destination too!
:)
J
Quote from: inkydigit on October 30, 2014, 04:02:33 PM
Really great journey Bob, I enjoyed this evolving... 5 star destination too!
:)
J
Thank you Jason. Yes, was a bit complicated and frazzled by brain for awhile; but, the outcome finally became pleasing - thanks to all the guys who helped.