I am creating this thread so we can get some input from the community on potential themes for our 2016 Challenge. We would like to hear from you guys and gals..... What Theme would you like to see in the next Challenge?
As Iceland was a very nice idea last year, I would completely change for jungle.
I would not say desert as some areas in iceland may be desertic as well.
Let's say Jungle
David
I am in full agreement here, jungle.
I quite like the Jungle idea. It will stress people's plant collections a lot, but there are possible ways around that (more distant jungle shot, say from the top of a cliff or mountain, e.g. the Venezuelan highlands (http://www.wallpaperup.com/uploads/wallpapers/2014/04/09/328175/34745e0d9e79b1f0e265f2622924e060.jpg)). And it gives lots of interesting options for scenes, including animal life if desired. :D
- Oshyan
jungles is a very good idea, but leaves out those who want to participate with the free version, as also it depends on what you want danny.
what do you think about space scenes? ;)
I would like to see a theme on geological features such as arches, balanced rocks, cenotes, cave entrances and interiors with lakes, the Richat structure, erupting volcanoes and geysers, cliff face walls, underwater geological features, sea mounts, tafoni, auroras, glaciers, icebergs, and rock waves such as in Paria Canyon. I have no ability to do any of these topics. Thank you. Howard McPherson
I like the geological idea. By that time everybody will probably have Daniil's erosion shader for additional interest, and smart uses. The vegetation may indeed be a drawback for free users, and is not really about Terragen either. Terragen is mainly about molding the planet, plants are extra's from outside.
"River" may be a topic with lots of potential images as well, and doable for every user.
I do like the river idea as well.
ye river here
River theme for example gives more variety than jungle imho.
Rivers and especially geological themes are great ideas.
Space shots and anything heavily related to flora/fauna objects are not really showcasing TG's specific capabilities as I think you get the nicest results with Terragen if you use its strengths.
Mars? Maybe... with rivers? :) This would be a featured theme for next year :)
Given there's a lot of reference out there on Mars's surface and atmosphere, including the discussions on the latter ;) I think it's a nice theme suggestion as well :)
I would not want something that requires me to buy something before I can even think about participating. Jungles are absolutely dominated/defined by plant life.
It would mean that the contest is more about making objects look good in TG, than about terrain. Besides, I don't think that I even have one palm tree, let alone a jungles worth of plants.
How about and Island theme? I think this may be good because it will force people to think about a smaller area (and those who want could make it tropical/jungle if they like). A benefit for a lot of people may be that by thinking in terms of an island, they would not end up being over whelmed by the infinite possibility of an entire planet. A funny problem of 3D including TG, is the infinite possibilities, can make it hard to focus on a place to start.
Island should be interpreted loosely though. for example (beyond the obvious):
http://wallpaperswa.com/thumbnails/detail/20121204/tower%20desert%20artwork%20master%20piece%201600x1012%20wallpaper_wallpaperswa.com_85.jpg So something surrounded by something else. No water here, but clearly an island.
OR metaphorically, life surrounded by death; A human lost in a desert, a single plant trying to survive in a volcanic environment, The earth in its orbit...
But of course, more simply, an island:
https://www.google.com/search?q=islands&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAmoVChMIi6vowvC6yAIVCV0eCh0hOgnN&biw=1347&bih=832
[attachimg=1]
Of the suggestions so far I think I now like Rivers best. "Geological features" is interesting but a bit too non-specific I think. Jungles would be really cool to see, but indeed quite challenging, especially to free version users (both because of population limits and budget). "Island" is not bad, but I think mostly relies fairly heavily on plants too (or it's a somewhat boring island?), and I think most people's imagination tends towards tropical islands. Extending the theme to be more "abstract", i.e. "island of stone in a desert" is interesting but hard to really grasp, I would be uncertain as a participant if my entry would fit.
Keep the ideas coming, I'm sure there are plenty more good possibilities. :)
- Oshyan
I think a couple of things need to be decided:
- is this to be 'Terragen only'? or 'Terragen Mainly'? If it is to be a true Terragen contest then I would think that only Terragen can be used. (not xFrog, Speedtree, Blender, DAZ, Poser, etc).
- if plant populations are allowed then perhaps all entries need to be limited to the max number of populations allowed in the free version ( I think it's 3 pops but anyone correct me if I'm wrong).
Seems like that would level the playing field a bit and put everyone on equal footing.
No comment 8)
The last contest's winner used World Machine. It was a beautiful and worthy image, but still relied upon a non-native (to TG) application. Personally I feel that TG's population tools are an area of strength (beats the heck out of the next competitor Vue!). But I certainly echo prior thoughts that a well stocked vegetation inventory would be a decided advantage in a Jungle (or similar) type of theme. Honestly, if we're trying to include the free version users in the competition, then why not limit all entries to the capabilities of the free version? Also limit any vegetation and props to ones freely available online? That would level the playing field for sure. To create a fine image still relies upon composition, atmosphere and artistic vision, so why not limit everyone to the same tools?
My thoughts.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, everyone actually.
The last posts already deal more about potential rules and restrictions, but I think discussing the contest rules in detail already is a bit premature.
I suggest we try to keep it as simple as possible and first decide on the theme.
Then work from there, although I understand some of the concerns relate to a certain theme.
Please keep going with sharing your ideas of course!
Restricting aspects of the software/models involved have both up- and downsides, so it's definitely interesting to hear thoughts about that to get a clear picture.
However, like I said, discussing it all in detail is premature and may actually potentially take away the fun of choosing a theme for all of us and preparing a contest for Danny and us :)
Cheers,
Martin
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on October 11, 2015, 09:03:36 AM
Rivers and especially geological themes are great ideas.
Space shots and anything heavily related to flora/fauna objects are not really showcasing TG's specific capabilities as I think you get the nicest results with Terragen if you use its strengths.
How about a Jungle River....the Amazon jumps to mind....that'd be fun!
I echo zaxxon about software restriction. The only problem here is that we are talking about an NWDA challenge and not a TG challenege. NDWA is not only for TG thus software restriction cannot be done. I would say we need to find a theme that will make the chances equal to win either using TG or WM or whatever. Or NWDA has to announce a TG challenge only :P
I understand what you are saying TU, however if as some folks are suggesting that the rules may be in play (myself included), then shouldn't that be settled before a theme is chosen? Certainly it's the NWDA that sets the rules, understood. World machine has been a sponsor in the past and to exclude it's use in the contest would not be good. But the question is: does possession of WM give an entrant an advantage? If IDV (ST) were a sponsor would NWDA then allow ST objects? While NWDA does provide products to the general CG community, most seem to be TG oriented. So in my estimation the NWDA could define and limit any software they choose, or the objects that those apps produce.
But having said that, my suggested theme would be: A glorious sky. Create a simple foreground and place it in an inspiring atmosphere. Certainly TG's atmospheric engine is a major strength, and it would be a theme approachable by all here.
Quote from: zaxxon on October 12, 2015, 01:03:46 PM
I understand what you are saying TU, however if as some folks are suggesting that the rules may be in play (myself included), then shouldn't that be settled before a theme is chosen? Certainly it's the NWDA that sets the rules, understood. World machine has been a sponsor in the past and to exclude it's use in the contest would not be good. But the question is: does possession of WM give an entrant an advantage? If IDV (ST) were a sponsor would NWDA then allow ST objects? While NWDA does provide products to the general CG community, most seem to be TG oriented. So in my estimation the NWDA could define and limit any software they choose, or the objects that those apps produce.
But having said that, my suggested theme would be: A glorious sky. Create a simple foreground and place it in an inspiring atmosphere. Certainly TG's atmospheric engine is a major strength, and it would be a theme approachable by all here.
This is the OP from Danny.
Quote from: Danny on October 10, 2015, 01:53:01 PM
I am creating this thread so we can get some input from the community on potential themes for our 2016 Challenge. We would like to hear from you guys and gals..... What Theme would you like to see in the next Challenge?
And is why I suggested to keep it simple by sticking to the request of sharing ideas for a theme :)
Any discussion about the rules following this post is not started by NWDA. Ignore Ulco ;) :D
I'm not Danny of course, so he will deal with this later, but I'm pretty sure that at this stage he's keen on hearing themes.
We'll worry about the rest later.
What would be fun? That's the only question, basically.
totally agree with Archonforest, about find a theme that will make the chances equal to win either using TG or whatever. however I also agree that we should focus more on the theme of challenge rather than the rules.
theme first , rules later ;-)
-covered in clouds
-river
-first step
-strata
-cave
-avalanche
-at the beach
-reef
-crater
Hopefully this is not just going to stir up the "rules before theme/theme before rules" debate further, but rather allow us to set it aside for the moment. So here are my thoughts, and if you are satisfied enough by this approach then let's leave it there for now and discuss details later:
The issue of free version users being able to fairly participate, and problems of varying levels of income and access to resources influencing the results, have been brought up at almost every contest we've seen around TG. There has never been a really good solution in my view. But I've had a thought.
I suggest we consider differentiating the awards/prizes based on the kinds of restrictions discussed above. There could be a "Best Free Version Entry", a "Best Pure Landscape" (no populations, etc.), and/or "Best Terragen-only" prize. This not only addresses the concerns expressed above, it also allows NWDA to tailor the prize package to best fit the category. After all someone who is competing in "Best Free Version Entry" is a lot more likely to benefit from a TG3 Pro license than someone who isn't eligible (i.e. owns Terragen already). And we've had several winners in the past who already did own TG, and either donated their prize (very nice of them!) or used it as a minor upgrade (an equivalent prize of just $150 for example vs. $699 for someone who doesn't own TG at all yet, for the same prize!).
It would probably require some minor modifications to how entries are submitted, but it should not be too difficult. Everyone would enter into the same general pool as a baseline, that way anyone can win the Grand Prize. Then each entry could also be optionally submitted into additional judging categories, Free Version, Pure Landscape, etc. The selection of categories would be done by the entrant. Categories would need to have very clear criteria so people could select appropriately. Scene files would need to be provided for verification upon request, and Planetside could check the registration DB in cases of Free Version usage doubts.
Obviously there would need to be (separate!) discussion about what categories there should be, and the total number of such additional categories should be kept to a minimum, with the selection probably influenced most by the idea of improving fairness overall (e.g. the free version category). It's also still an open question whether there would be 2nd and 3rd prizes in addition to these, or if the category-based prizes would replace them. But in any case I think it's a potentially effective solution, and even if it's not *the* solution chosen, I hope we can proceed on the fair assumption that a solution *will* be found so that we can concentrate for now on what the best theme would be and ignore the otherwise unrelated issues of fairness, resource access, etc. that I do not think should influence the choice of a *theme*.
- Oshyan
Oshyan you got this right!
IMHO this is the only correct and fair way here. 8)
Oshyan, I think yours is a good approach.
Yes, that seems quite reasonable to me.
I always thought there should be a contest to see who can make the best looking TG default scene. I'll throw it out there, but I'm not married to it.
Echo Oshyan; brilliant. And for the rest, I'll shut up ;)
Quote from: Upon Infinity on October 12, 2015, 09:32:15 PM
I always thought there should be a contest to see who can make the best looking TG default scene. I'll throw it out there, but I'm not married to it.
I also had this idea before. Just open TG, do not move the cam and do your best :)
Quote from: Walli on October 12, 2015, 02:04:23 PM
theme first , rules later ;-)
-covered in clouds
-river
-first step
-strata
-cave
-avalanche
-at the beach
-reef
-crater
I really like these ones :)
Strata wouldn't surprise anyone I guess :)
Clouds are hard for users with slower machines.
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on October 13, 2015, 04:12:54 AM
Quote from: Walli on October 12, 2015, 02:04:23 PM
theme first , rules later ;-)
-covered in clouds
-river
-first step
-strata
-cave
-avalanche
-at the beach
-reef
-crater
I really like these ones :)
Strata wouldn't surprise anyone I guess :)
What is first step anyway?
BTW a pond scene?
Quote from: Ariel DKMultimedia on October 10, 2015, 09:15:31 PM
jungles is a very good idea, but leaves out those who want to participate with the free version, as also it depends on what you want danny.
what do you think about space scenes? ;)
I could do that with what I run which is the Free version...3 pops and a selection of single objects thrown in for variety...no limit on them except RAM....
Quote from: archonforest on October 12, 2015, 02:52:25 PM
Oshyan you got this right!
IMHO this is the only correct and fair way here. 8)
Agree and brilliantly democratic as well
Full support for Oshyan's ideas. If I should win something I do not want to win a TG Pro license as I already have it, but I'd love the animation upgrade :)
As for theme, please do not make it overly specific and allow room for a terrain and surfacing only scene. I like the geological feature theme. You could retrict it some, let's say arch, cave or tower.
Excited for another contest!
QuoteQuote from: Danny on October 10, 2015, 01:53:01 PM
I am creating this thread so we can get some input from the community on potential themes for our 2016 Challenge. We would like to hear from you guys and gals..... What Theme would you like to see in the next Challenge?
And is why I suggested to keep it simple by sticking to the request of sharing ideas for a theme :)
Any discussion about the rules following this post is not started by NWDA. Ignore Ulco ;) :D
I'm not Danny of course, so he will deal with this later, but I'm pretty sure that at this stage he's keen on hearing themes.
We'll worry about the rest later.
What would be fun? That's the only question, basically.
Martin hit the nail on the head. Thks Martin
Guys at this point its very preliminary, I created the thread to give you guys a chance to weigh in on a potential topic. I know in the past challenges locking down the rules to keep the playing field even is always a challenge, that said as soon as we define a Theme we can start sorting out the rest. I estimate the Challenge to begin at the beginning 2016. So there is plenty of time.
Thanks for your input, I look forward for your suggestions on a theme at this point, we can hash out the rest at another time. Any questions please ask them here that's why the thread is here
Cheers
Danny
PS I did like the idea of a River Challenge. That would be interesting
The Jungle Theme I found very interesting as well, but as Badger mentioned people with an extensive library of plants would have a significant advantage. Perhaps we can get a sponsor to provide some plants as part of their pledge? I cannot speak for them, but maybe?? Again its still early, keep the Theme suggestions coming. Thank you
Glad to hear everyone is onboard with my idea (Danny, does that include you? :D ).
I'm still really liking "River", personally. It leaves things quite open to many of the possibilities from other theme suggestions, for example "geological feature" (you could easily choose to make a dried up river bed in a desert with little or no plants, and some extreme/cool geology, or a river wrapping around a hoodoo, just for 2 ideas of many possibilities). One could also make a river in a jungle. River has enough specificity to provide good direction, while also being open enough to have many possible realizations. Whereas Jungle alone is rather restrictive (even though it has some creative, unexpected possibilities like the high aerial view I mentioned earlier in this thread). Geological Feature seems a bit abstract to me, but is fine as a theme. Beach could be interesting... OK, well I won't comment on every single one, hehe. But I do like the most River so far...
- Oshyan
Quote from: Oshyan on October 13, 2015, 02:21:35 PM
Glad to hear everyone is onboard with my idea (Danny, does that include you? :D ).
Sounds great actually. Its open enough for all users Free through Pro. It's a bit early to commit but that is the best one so far for sure
As I was on Jungle idea on first, i do admit that owners of a large plant library could get a serious advantage.
The river is very interesting and it can go in so many ways. Even jungle as it is hard to think of a jungle without river.
So I +1 for the river as it seems to be a fair theme for everybody.
So we all could have fun to share our ideas and renders and learn a lot from each other again.
David
River or Island would be my theme preferences, plenty of scope to flex Terragen's muscles without disadvantaging anyone too much :)
Thanks all, keep m coming :)
We're bouncing some ideas about themes and challenge setup back and forth behind the curtains in the mean time.
As long as we haven't decided we're very happy to hear everyone's input :)
I do hope we get more contestants than last time...
Quote from: Dune on October 15, 2015, 12:26:31 PM
I do hope we get more contestants than last time...
I second that on Ulco !
Quote from: Dune on October 15, 2015, 12:26:31 PM
I do hope we get more contestants than last time...
Last time, I never even heard about it until 3 weeks in.
For consideration...
I like river too. Can put a river anywhere really, so plenty of freedom for creativity and personal choice.
However, if you go back and read all of the threads on rivers (more resent ones) you'll see that making rivers in TG requires a lot of irritating hacks. If you read Ulco's threads he had to figure out a lot just to get the water to follow the ground, then there is the unfixable problem of the fact that the water does not flow around curves (not really, though Ulco kinda made it look like it did, some times).
Of course people will think of water falls when they are generating ideas for them selves... look at the water fall threads. Water is simply not a strong point of TG, with all respect to the people who do pretty amazing things with it. But in my very humble opinion, for most people, a contest on making rivers in TG will be a frustration where results are concerned, compared to normal terrains.
How will you do rapids and bubbles and sediments and so on and so on. Yes, it can be done. But not by everyone, and never as well as in other 3D apps that do water well. caustics? Anyone? Nope.
Of course my criticism dose not include lakes and ponds and such, which TG can do really well for the most part, and which everyone who has TG can figure out pretty easily. But a river is arguably a more (potentially) complex ecosystem even just at the mechanical level.
The thing about the Iceland contest that was so great is that is focused effort, provided inspiration at a huge level, and remained open enough that you could do pretty much anything with it, minus a palm tree.
I understand wanting to do something completely different this time. But I would just say that the really good parts of the Iceland contest should also be put into to this contest. So something that helps focus direction such as (but not necessarily) a specific place. And which allows for a lot of freedom of choice.
Of course all I wrote may be moot if there will be a update soon, that makes rivers more practical and realistic in TG, and slightly less difficult if Ulco releases his river nodes for all ;)
Anyway, I don't know. But I just think we will end up with a lot of good TG terrains and a "U" shaped negative displacement with a lake node dropped in in a valley.
As for me, I was already thinking about how I could use other apps to make both the river bed and the water to use in TG.
Or I guess you could just use clouds ;D
It doesn't have to be a very elaborate and 'difficult' river to make a striking render.
Thanks Michael,
These are definitely things to take into consideration I think.
You're right in that the challenge must be...well...challenging, but definitely not frustrating.
Your concerns about how poor water is handled in TG are basically the same as mine regarding a Jungle theme based challenge.
With Jungle the emphasis is on objects and TG is not particularly outstanding with object rendering.
It's the most fun to utilize the strengths of the software.
In the end it's mostly about the fun and learning experience through the WIP threads.
It's good for TG and its entire community if the output of the challenge is high quality.
Our "responsibility" lies in choosing a theme/setup which ensures that, but yet is challenging and within the technical scope of TG.
So thanks for bringing it up :)
I'll see to it that others will read your comment as well.
Cheers,
Martin
T-U
Cool man. Really not trying to be a downer.
Of course if a lot of people want to try and fight the reality and a lot of people enter on the river idea, then that is cool too. Whatever will make people excited and inspired. Just in that case, I would want to be able to use out side tools for the contest (we should be able to use outside tools anyway)
My guess though, is that it just won't end up well, having a TG contest on something TG does not do natively.
I agree with you completely about the whip threads. That really is one of the best parts of these contests. It makes it fun even for people who do not participate (according to written feed back posted here in the forum). And I also would like to see lots more entries as Ulco and Danny said.
Having said that, the idea someone posted about a cloud scape (I think it was "lost in clouds", or something) is a very challenging idea. TG can do really amazing atoms for sure. Clouds are built into TG native. So everyone can get something easy... Everyone will have a place to start without having to first think of a workaround.
As for me clouds as a focus really scares me because I find it hard and time consuming. But I cannot make an argument that TG does not do clouds, that is for sure.
Hmmm ok. So where I am at on my wish, is Island or Clouds, of the ideas that were posted so far.
There is another way to go about this, that is perhaps not as fun as what we are doing in this thread.
rather than giving a specific challenge, you could have a list of things any render must have to be eligible regardless of the theme.
So for an example, every entry must have some TG generated terrain. must have some TG generated clouds or clouds that are rendered in TG (saying it that way opens it up a bit). Every entry must have some water. and every entry must have at least one imported object.
Just another way to think about it.
Just trying to participate here, no worries from me.
Just lobbying now :P, but...
Quote"Island" is not bad, but I think mostly relies fairly heavily on plants too (or it's a somewhat boring island?), and I think most people's imagination tends towards tropical islands
Ever been to England?
As for me I have been on lots of islands. Only saw a palm tree on a few of them. but there were lots of plants.
The rock faces are what I like best though. https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=apostle+islands+wisconsin&hl=en&biw=1196&bih=851&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIkpf4wuLHyAIVQY4NCh09Kgkz
You could put palm trees on them though. Its 3d after all. You can do anything you want... If you have imagination, or google. ;D
It would not be silly at all to put a cactus on an island in a tundra (with or without clouds or a river) if you guys were to pick my most awesome state of Wisconsin for the theme ;D. http://wpt.org/Wisconsin-Gardener/Segments/hardy-cactus
But I shouldn't promote Wisconsin here. Its not fair to people who live is crappy places (like Illinois) :D :D :D ;)
A cave that bares tasty food
http://northlandadventurer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/SUPERIOR-APOSTLE-ISLANDS-0350.jpg
Roads and rivers are kinda similar, and we've done roads before... ;) But your points are well taken Badger, and good to consider.
As for islands, even non-tropical islands will tend to have plant life, no? It does add to the challenge, not necessarily in a bad way of course.
- Oshyan
An idea: make available to everyone a certain number of plants, buildings, objects - or whatever. Everyone gets limited to using just these things with their images, in whatever way they want to use them. Might be interesting to see how creative people can be
Quote from: bobbystahr on October 13, 2015, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: Ariel DKMultimedia on October 10, 2015, 09:15:31 PM
jungles is a very good idea, but leaves out those who want to participate with the free version, as also it depends on what you want danny.
what do you think about space scenes? ;)
I could do that with what I run which is the Free version...3 pops and a selection of single objects thrown in for variety...no limit on them except RAM....
just for clear doubts. I render this a few months ago. I started this in the free version and finished in the Professional version.
I think it's the simplest example that there is about a river in the jungle, with only 3 pops.
I know the capabilities of the free version Bobby, and you're telling someone who has been using a year ago ;)
however, you cant deny that remains a distinct disadvantage
:) Thanks O.
But really, Illinois sucks.
Bunch of flatlanders.
Michael, You can make the water flow in the same direction as the river! It's quite easy!