So generally is it the practice to set textures for 3D models to the same DPI as for web viewing?.. 72dpi?
as opposed to 300 dpi for printing.
We have had some useful threads here about dpi for traditional stuff, but I need to know how people set it for making textures for models. For example I am making a 4k texture set right now. How should I set the dpi? As with printing, is there a pro standard vs. a soccer mom standard? I mean for example, I could make whatever I wanted of course, but if I was making something that was going to a studio for a film, what would I use? If that helps to clarify what I am after.
thanks
Good point to bring up...
Images on the web are measured in pixels. Viewports on the web, all CSS, etc, everything is by Pixel. Even when setting a size in EM, EX, REM, it's converted to pixel. Yet many people go through the trouble of setting their images to 72 dots per inch ( DPI ). The process of sizing images for the web is often misunderstood.
Sorry, I'm a Web Developer. xD
To actually help with the question:
4K textures I just looked at in Fallout 4, and Witcher 3 are between 72 - 300 DPI, I guess it depends on where it's being viewed from.
Edit; yeah it looks like it depends on viewing. The textures for the tops of buildings are at 72 DPI, and the textures for the ground floor (where you can walk right up to the wall) are at 300.
I understand that models in games and for film are treated different (game models need to be low polly and low MB). But How does dpi effect image quality between the two, if at all.
And, If the point is highest visual quality in terms of resolution, then how does DPI effect it if at all? I am guessing that it should be 72. But I would really like to know if there can be any difference or if its possible for anyone to see a difference if there is one.
I do understand what to do with dpi if I want to print the render, but I am not clear on DPIs relevance for anything before that. The simple fact is that I have to choose some number to start the file, so I just want to understand it better.
QuoteI guess it depends on where it's being viewed from
Do you mean how far away, or on what medium?
How is DPI relevant if neither of the pixels ever end up on paper?
As far as I know pretty much all software ignores DPI info if it's been shown on screen.
As soon as you start a print dialogue or are about to send it off for printing, only then do you worry about DPI.
For texturing your 3d model it also doesn't matter as far as I know.
You have a 4k texture and it is assigned to a bunch of faces of your model and the software doesn't care if these faces are 1 meter or 1 centimeter or your textures 72dpi or 300dpi.
QuoteEdit; yeah it looks like it depends on viewing. The textures for the tops of buildings are at 72 DPI, and the textures for the ground floor (where you can walk right up to the wall) are at 300.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:09:03 PM by WASasquatch »
Ok, that does help to make it more understandable.
But now I just need to know (assuming that the fallout models are examples of standard practice) if 300 is also the standard for models intended only for film and printing.
I assume that there can be no reason to make a higher DPI than 300 for a model when printing, if printing at 300. But there could be some crazy fact I don't know about that will confuse the hell out of me... That would be normal ;D Based on what you posted, I imagine that you can set it lower if the model is in the background as with your roof and door example.
And also if when rendering and transferring image to film (literally transferring to film) if there is any difference for DPI. I would now guess no, but would like to know for sure.
QuoteAs far as I know pretty much all software ignores DPI info if it's been shown on screen.
As soon as you start a print dialogue or are about to send it off for printing, only then do you worry about DPI.
That makes sense too. But you still need to choose some number when creating a file. So if what you wrote is the correct info, then the number should be 72, just for on screen viewing while creating the texture? And then it does not mater again until printing?
But then why the difference for the fall out models? Assuming these are the models form the game... It maters because if those are pro models, then making any of them 300 DPI, will add File size, a pro would avoid that if they could, I am just guessing. SO now I am confused ;D
This is a question that has absolutely no relevance. 4K textures mean just that - the texture image is 4k x 4k. Dpi doesn't even factor into the equation, you could set it at whatever you want and it would change nothing at all. What does matter is how many total pixels and how close it will be viewed. When I'm designing 3D objects, I take the final render into account and how much approximate pixels will be displayed in the final render. Of course, you must consider that that 4K is very likely being divided among several sides of that object.
Changing a 72dpi image to a 300dpi images does not add to the file size. It's just a scaling factor telling how many 'dots' (pixels) an inch should contain.
DPI is irrespective of pixels, meaning that changing dpi does not remove/add pixels.
Also, what monitor since 1998 is displaying at 72 dpi?
The guys who made those fallout models probably did it like that because:
1) they downloaded a texture from google search which was set to 300dpi by a guy who didn't know what he was doing and used that file by itself or as a base
2) they didn't know themselves what they were doing
:D
QuoteChanging a 72dpi image to a 300dpi images does not add to the file size.
OK guys, Thanks, I am clear now. Started thinking about it as I was working and forgot/ignored a basic and that made a bunch of questions based on the wrong starting place.
QuoteAlso, what monitor since 1998 is displaying at 72 dpi?
I was thinking about web. I thought that images for viewing on web needed to be 72? I was conflating I think, all the different things and then applying them in the wrong place on top.
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on January 08, 2016, 03:38:42 PM
The guys who made those fallout models probably did it like that because:
1) they downloaded a texture from google search which was set to 300dpi by a guy who didn't know what he was doing and used that file by itself or as a base
2) they didn't know themselves what they were doing
:D
It seems pretty uniform, actually. And I doubt any textures are from Google...
For example, decals are all 72 dpi for LOD, yet again, for wall decals you can walk up to 300dpi.
This may have to do with other things, for example projectors, virtual reality, directx 12, who knows.
Quote from: TheBadger on January 08, 2016, 03:45:51 PM
I was thinking about web. I thought that images for viewing on web needed to be 72? I was conflating I think, all the different things and then applying them in the wrong place on top.
Browsers all view by the pixel, which allows you to upscale/downscale on the fly.
QuoteThis may have to do with other things, for example projectors, virtual reality, directx 12, who knows.
Thinking like that is what got me really twisted up in the first place. ;D
They use Google, really, they do.
"Anything that works"
Also, DPI is taken into account for game engines when resampling. Resampling is a mathematical equation that determines how to combine the DPI (PPI) at different scales on screen. A Low DPI image cannot be up-scaled well, thus in a game if you walked up to it, it would get grainy. This would easily explain use for LOD with 72 as apposed to anything viewed close.
(http://www.dynacolor.com/images/DpiPicts.jpg)
Resampled pics with low to high DPI.
Again, Bethesda, does not just grab textures from Google. Like most game companies they have texture artists who use stock photos.... While you could find the stock photo used, they're usually from expensive packs.
Pixels of a image are not present until it is rendered. For example, I cannot open a Image with GD and just read the pixels, I must first render it and determine the pixels rendered by the file settings. This also allows for quality at higher resolution when resampling (re-rendering at higher resolution)
That is resolution? IF you create your own images like that and just change dpi you will not get the results you see in that image?
Quote from: TheBadger on January 08, 2016, 03:58:30 PM
That is resolution? IF you create your own images like that and just change dpi you will not get the results you see in that image?
You would need a factored image from 600 DPI and scale down, correct. It's exactly why you see pixelated images in a game like Minecraft when you walk up to a wall painting. The skin image is either 16x16 - 256x256, but your resolution (and the game resolution) is at whatever your monitor is. There is not enough DPI data available for it to upscale any further without quality loss.
So lets say minecraft worked with a 4k image for painting. On a 1920x1080 monitor it will always look crisp as you cannot get the engine to resample it any higher. If it was a 1080p image, same story. If it was a 720p image at 600dpi, it could look good while resampling, but if you were on a 4K resolution, you would then get a effect similar to the 72 DPI image above.
10 x 10 image resampled to 300 x 300 in UE4
First is 72, second is 300, that's the effect it gave me
I don't know what a factored image is.
LOL,
This is funny. I started out knowing exactly what I should do, then got turned around on something, post a question, got clear, got confused, got clear, and now am somewhat confused again.
Quote from: TheBadger on January 08, 2016, 04:15:28 PM
I don't know what a factored image is.
LOL,
This is funny. I started out knowing exactly what I should do, then got turned around on something, post a question, got clear, got confused, got clear, and now am somewhat confused again.
a project starting at whatever DPI resolution and scratch material.
Basically, in this modern world now. Use 300-600 DPI. It can then be converted for whatever purposes by whatever browser/engine/thing.
I'm 99% sure that DPI does not matter whatsoever in games or most any other purposes *except* print and *sometimes* web. Resampling in games is based on absolute texture (image) resolution in pixels and on in-game display scaling, which is generally independent of both screen resolution *and* PPI/DPI.
- Oshyan
Quote from: TheBadger on January 08, 2016, 04:15:28 PM
I don't know what a factored image is.
LOL,
This is funny. I started out knowing exactly what I should do, then got turned around on something, post a question, got clear, got confused, got clear, and now am somewhat confused again.
I stand by my original statement; dpi is absolutely, completely meaningless to the creation of 3d objects. To the degree that it prompts you for a number, just put in 100 and forget it even asked. The ONLY thing that matters is total pixels and how close the object will ultimately be to the camera. No matter your total pixels, there will be a point where those textures will fail for a raster image as the camera approaches. But you have to factor in the dividing of your texture by how many sides are used. Unless you set a new uv set and texture for each side, of course.
Quote from: Oshyan on January 08, 2016, 05:23:39 PM
I'm 99% sure that DPI does not matter whatsoever in games or most any other purposes *except* print and *sometimes* web. Resampling in games is based on absolute texture (image) resolution in pixels and on in-game display scaling, which is generally independent of both screen resolution *and* PPI/DPI.
- Oshyan
Unreal Engine 4 upscaling a 10x10 image says otherwise, there is a noticeable difference in quality and subsequently saved, file size.
A large image, with a large DPI can be resampled with higher quality. A low DPI cannot. Simple as that. A low DPI image blown up twice the size will look terrible compared to the latter.
A game engine is continuously resampling, which uses this algorithm to determine pixel blending...
Granted, some engines have no texture filtering (skew and transform the texture rather then resample), but modern engines usually do, and with DX12, even more features.
I'm not sure what's all in the file, or why it's bigger with larger DPI, but it's being used in resampling as seen visually.
Also, raw buffered images form a games engine being put to print for promotional uses would look terrible if everything is render with low DPI, would it not? You can clearly see this with in-game art on boxes from old games to new (Just within the last 10 years).
Prior to 4k textures even heads of gaming and CG state "If 4096x4096 @ 300 dpi were available, you'd choose it above any other options" which is the whole point, go with the best quality and let the renderers manipulate it as seen fit (engine, browser, phone, print, whatever). Textures are meant to be raw, which is why a lot of engines use RAW formats.
I don't know the details of the Unreal example and without knowing how it was accomplished I don't think it proves anything. The rest of what you've said seems to just be assumption based on a test that you yourself say "I'm not sure what's all in the file or why it's bigger with larger DPI" about, which suggests you don't understand what's going on either. Assuming the cause by the result is bad science. ;)
4096x4096 @ 300 DPI is exactly the same as 4096x4096 at 72 DPI. The only thing that is different between those two files is a simple metadata flag for DPI, which should only be used for printing (if even then as many images have a default DPI setting which isn't applicable to print, and people often choose explicitly the dimensions they want printed). If a game engine actually relies on DPI for something, that'd be a surprise to me, and makes little sense. Can you find any reference to this in the documentation?
- Oshyan
All I know is DPI is handled in Unreal Engine. You must specify the DPI based on the viewport; a widescreen, a projector, a crt, etc, though this targets mainly the UI overlays. 300 DPI screenshots was recently a feature request and supposedly now enabled with HighResScreenShot.
It may not be needed for most, but in the industry I assume for promotional purposes it's needed. For example my company deals a lot in printing and they would much rather the data come ready then change anything, as it's not a product for people to customize.
I found this in unreal forum:
https://answers.unrealengine.com/questions/105725/texture-size.html
QuoteDots per inch is only useful when you're setting the size of the image in a physical unit such as inches or cm. Changing the DPI then simply adjusts the number of pixels in the image so that print quality can be higher. For example, if you had an image that was 10 inches each way. At 72 DPI, that would be 720x720. At 120DPI, that image would be 1200x1200. Changing the DPI doesn't magically make your pixels more detailed, it just adds more of them. If you specify a resolution and a DPI, then all you're doing is telling it to print the image smaller, not to add more detail.
In short, DPI and pixel resolution aren't really compatible concepts, and you should be concerned with resolution only in this instance, not DPI.
DPI scaling rule
https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/UMG/UserGuide/DPIScaling/index.html
Not sure about what this 2nd link is all about.
Never heard anything of this dpi scaling before so interesting I guess.
DPI makes some potential sense for *UI Overlays in particular*, because they are always at a *fixed position and distance relative to the camera*. That means DPI *could* be used as some measure of detail relative to the user's display, although given the wide range of modern display DPIs and resolutions it's still something of a crapshoot and specifying UI elements by % of screen space or some other resolution-independent method seems much better to me. Again can you link to any documentation that mentions DPI in the context of Unreal Engine? Note that "DPI Scaling" is *not* the same thing as DPI as used in image settings!
No mention of DPI in the basic texture info, for example:
https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Content/Types/Textures/SupportAndSettings/index.html
What do you mean "it's not a product for people to customize"? Where is this request for 300 DPI screenshots, can you link to it? I'm curious of the details. You understand that the screenshot is at a fixed resolution, and making it possible to make 300 DPI screenshots is just the save algorithm specifying a 300DPI flag in the saved file, right? It changes absolutely nothing about the actual saved image data.
Also no mention of DPI in screenshot settings (even though there is mention of a "highres screenshot", but of course that's not the same thing as high DPI):
https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Basics/Screenshots/index.html
In fact the only mention I see of DPI in their docs refers to DPI scaling in the UI, which again is a totally different thing than what we're referring to here.
- Oshyan
Quote from: Oshyan on January 08, 2016, 07:01:54 PM
What do you mean "it's not a product for people to customize"?
and making it possible to make 300 DPI screenshots is just the save algorithm specifying a 300DPI flag in the saved file, right?
In fact the only mention I see of DPI in their docs refers to DPI scaling in the UI, which again is a totally different thing than what we're referring to here.
- Oshyan
A game is not meant to be modified by the promotional team (or anyone outside of development besides any development tools made available; for the most part games have specific end-user licenses people ignore like GTAV), so thus having ready screen captures makes things easier I guess.
And again, the images above are both simply upscaled from the same files, one saved with 72dpi, and the other with 300dpi, there is a noticeable change in how it's rendered by UE4 as a prop. I don't know why. Could be the same reason reason Fallout 4 is using a pattern with LOD objects and anything you can approach up close. Something we are not aware of yet in the industry, or coming out. This is also seen in Witcher 3 textures just not as much it seems, only specific things like a paintings texture. However from what I'm reading UE4 renders in 72 dpi despite textures,
And again like I was saying, projectors use DPI scaling, not pixels like monitors or new TVs.
1- Will you print it? No: Then don't bother with DPI.
2- Is there any menu like for a game engine? No: Then don't bother with DPI.
3- What will be the screen resolution? 1920x1080 (for example).Will that object or image look bigger (will the camera be closer) then the screen size? No:The biggest image you can use on an object is 1920x1080. If you use a bigger image it is wasted- unneeded.
Will that object look bigger (will the camera be closer) then the screen size? Yes: Then it depends on how close you will get.If you will see half of the image then you will need kind of a 2 size (4K for the same example) to get the same quality at that closeup. If you get closer you will need bigger ones even.
The DPI scaling is relative to the screen size and how close the pixels are shown on an TV,tablet etc. A small 1920x1080 device is harder to read when it does have the same size fonts as on an 32 inch monitor. So the GUI can show the fonts for example bigger or smaller according the DPI scaling number. They could use pixels too for those things but it does have a history behind it that uses DPI. And it isn't wrong but unfortunately confuses people.
For standard in game 3D objects etc. video or an image you make thinking about DPI is like while you are working to make something and use cm,meter to think about how it is in feet,inch etc. They are all related (changeable) but why do you make your work harder why absolutely not needed? Only how close you will get to the object and how big the screen is (in pixels) matters.
Quoteprojectors use DPI scaling
If that is right that may be relevant. I remember that I had to transfer 16mm film to video once for a class, or it was video to film (I don't recall which direction now) but the point is that we used a projector to do it, which ever direction it was. Another example may be this: https://shop.the-impossible-project.com/shop/instant-lab-universal instant lab. But I am not sure i understand at all the other stuff we are talking about in this thread, so I cannot be at all sure it can be applied to non traditional printing.
But anyway, I will go with-
it does not mater for any purpose anyone here will use the model and textures for- and just stop worrying about it. ;D not easy for a worrier.
@Kadri
THANK YOU!! lol Always can count on you :)
QuoteThe DPI scaling is relative to the screen size and how close the pixels are shown on an TV,tablet etc. A small 1920x1080 device is harder to read when it does have the same size fonts as on an 32 inch monitor. So the GUI can show the fonts for example bigger or smaller according the DPI scaling number. They could use pixels too for those things but it does have a history behind it that uses DPI. And it isn't wrong but unfortunately confuses people.
Probably some code writer is using some aspect of it to do something proprietary in some games?
If you want to print a screen of a game then the print size is important.
Say you want to print in A4 size. That is by 300 DPI 2480 x 3508 pixels. This is already bigger then a 1980 x 1080 HD monitor resolution.
So if you made your game or whatever textures for HD monitor resolution they will not look as good.
And if you want to show some parts of the game much closer the worse they will look.
For that kind of work you have to use much bigger images of course.
So it all depends where the image will be used how close you will get and if they will be printed or used in other devices.
Easy ;D
"EASY"
What was that someone was saying about some guy named MR. Awesome?
;D
But this time it was fun to write it that way ;D
Quote from: Kadri on January 08, 2016, 08:42:31 PM
Say you want to print in A4 size. That is by 300 DPI 2480 x 3508 pixels. This is already bigger then a 1980 x 1080 HD monitor resolution.
So if you made your game or whatever textures for HD monitor resolution they will not look as good.
And if you want to show some parts of the game much closer the worse they will look
A lot of modern games use downscaling now, and games that down support it have mods to enable it (like Dark Souls 2) where you can punch in 4096p reoslution and have it render on screen at 1920x1080 allowing for a much smoother appearance of textures and lines then AA can provide.
Kinda like the photoshop technique to make mechanical wires and machinery. You start in a 5-10k canvas and then downscale to the desired size (like 500x500 pixels), bringing in detail that wasn't there before. This is how a lot of UI elements are made.
Yes but that is mostly for Antialiasing. Down scaling isn't a problem(from a quality aspect). Up scaling is unfortunately.
Quote from: WASasquatch on January 08, 2016, 08:48:03 PM
...
Kinda like the photoshop technique to make mechanical wires and machinery. You start in a 5-10k canvas and then downscale to the desired size (like 500x500 pixels), bringing in detail that wasn't there before. This is how a lot of UI elements are made.
Not sure what you mean Was. You are getting rid of detail in that way actually.
But depending on the work you might kind of enhance (getting a different look?) the look of some parts by doing that.
But i wouldn't call that bringing detail that wasn't there before.Because it isn't bringing detail.
You can't do that in both ways(upsc.or downsc.) except using some advanced techniques and they use more then one image so far i know for this.
*sigh*
- Oshyan
Quote from: Kadri on January 08, 2016, 08:56:58 PM
Quote from: WASasquatch on January 08, 2016, 08:48:03 PM
...
Kinda like the photoshop technique to make mechanical wires and machinery. You start in a 5-10k canvas and then downscale to the desired size (like 500x500 pixels), bringing in detail that wasn't there before. This is how a lot of UI elements are made.
Not sure what you mean Was. You are getting rid of detail in that way actually.
But depending on the work you might kind of enhance (getting a different look?) the look of some parts by doing that.
But i wouldn't call that bringing detail that wasn't there before.Because it isn't bringing detail.
You can't do that in both ways(upsc.or downsc.) except using some advanced techniques and they use more then one image so far i know for this.
What I mean is you take bland (from a 5k 10k image) project and downscale it into what now looks like it was meant to be and realisitic via a minimalistic design.
(http://2photoshop.com/images/interface/7%20final.jpg)
These box parts were made at 10x the size and then down-scaled to create realism from basic shapes and gradients.
This same approach is now used in games by rendering at higher resolutions then the display resolution, and then down-scaling.
It's a technique called Supersampling, it's been in practice for decades and is a form of antialiasing. Once again nothing whatsoever to do with DPI...
- Oshyan
Like Oshyan said.
Hardware like Graphics cards or even TV, monitors etc. have some settings to alter change-render the image in some different ways.
It is not always related like you think it is at least.
Quote from: Oshyan on January 08, 2016, 09:41:10 PM
It's a technique called Supersampling, it's been in practice for decades and is a form of antialiasing. Once again nothing whatsoever to do with DPI...
- Oshyan
Didn't say it was, it was in response to Kadri and screen resolution of games.