I didn't know whether I better should have posted this in the Open discussion area, but since it's some sort of a Terragen thing I decided to post it here.
For those who do not know this, long time ago there was a member in this forum named Lightning. He shared a lot of nice plants with us, but after a while it turned out that there were some legality problems with his models. He deleted all his stuff and quit (or quitted?) the forum.
I still have (and love to use) some of his models. His grass is the best I've seen. I use it in each and every image that contains grass.
To cut a long story short, here is my question: Would it be OK (and legal!!!!!) to reupload his grass models? I don't know which program he used to create these, and Lightning isn't in this forum anymore.
What do you think?
I say 'No'. The copies of products created with an illegal copy of a software are not legal. I doubt that there is a years' countdown.
But I like to be proofed wrong.
Edit: but it could be recreated, couldn't it?
I guess if the models were deemed 'illegal' then, that they still are illegal now?
;D
In a few years time, when people glow in the dark (if there are any people left), it will be funny to think back how we worried so.
Hannes, could you post a couple of jpegs of the grass model? Perhaps it can be reasonably recreated with ST or TPF, then we can share the results.
I believe the original concern around Lightning's models was from Xfrog. So I think the best thing to do if you want to share them would be to contact Xfrog and see if you can figure something out with them. If they have grass models that are as good, or that his were based on, perhaps there's a way they can incorporate the changes/improvements, or at least be inspired by them.
The other option, as zaxxon suggests, is to take lessons on what works in Lightning's approach and do some new grass models that achieve similar or even greater levels of realism and utility. I think this approach would really be the ideal and cleanest way. Of course Speedtree models can't be shared either... *sigh*
- Oshyan
I rerworked the texturing a bit, but here's one of the long grasses and one of the lush grasses. The different models of the same kind look quite similar.
wow that is a nice model!
Interesting that this is made in xFroggie. Looks very, very similar to grass I saw modeled in Blender a year or two ago. of course, anything modeled in Blender is free to use and disseminate any way the user/owner chooses.
Well I just went through 14 pages of XFROG sales items, a good cross section. I personally don't think these plants were made with XFROG...they seem more like max models to me. I'm not familiar at all with Blender so I'll take masonpappy's word they appear similar..they just don't look like anything I've seen at XFROG.
front row l-r 2 high res plants then, grass mtl.tgo 1, 2 & 3, lush grass 4
back row l-r 2 tall grasses and lush grass 1, 2 & 3.
I'm working on this. Made entirely from scratch.
That looks good also, Chris. In fact grass can be made with a lot of apps, perhaps even Zbrush or LW. It's a great pity that even simple models such as these can't be shared, coming from ST or TPF.
I sent the models to Volker and Pascal. Both offered to recreate these from scratch, so hopefully we'll all have some more neat grass in the next weeks.
Quote from: Dune on January 23, 2016, 06:06:07 AM
That looks good also, Chris. In fact grass can be made with a lot of apps, perhaps even Zbrush or LW. It's a great pity that even simple models such as these can't be shared, coming from ST or TPF.
Thank You. I need to fix the specular some and colors. I at least can make a set of three, maybe one short, one long and something wild like in a prairie.
Quote from: Hannes on January 23, 2016, 06:07:35 AM
I sent the models to Volker and Pascal. Both offered to recreate these from scratch, so hopefully we'll all have some more neat grass in the next weeks.
Certainly. If they create those species but keep them original then perhaps i can do something very different that no one else has done.
I always wondered if one just shuts up about how he/she created their models, then who will ever find out?
IIRC XFrog noticed similarities between XFrog presets and Lightnings work and that that is what made it all start.
Creating grass in ST/TPF from scratch; my guess is that no one will notice.
Quote from: Dune on January 23, 2016, 06:06:07 AM
That looks good also, Chris. In fact grass can be made with a lot of apps, perhaps even Zbrush or LW. It's a great pity that even simple models such as these can't be shared, coming from ST or TPF.
I've seen trees done in Zbrush but a rather involved process. Lightwave has an old Plugin called TreesDesigner.
Quote from: Hannes on January 23, 2016, 06:07:35 AM
I sent the models to Volker and Pascal. Both offered to recreate these from scratch, so hopefully we'll all have some more neat grass in the next weeks.
Smart move Hannes 8)
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on January 23, 2016, 06:35:04 AM
I always wondered if one just shuts up about how he/she created their models, then who will ever find out?
IIRC XFrog noticed similarities between XFrog presets and Lightnings work and that that is what made it all start.
Creating grass in ST/TPF from scratch; my guess is that no one will notice.
We seem to be a bit OCD about being honest,....not that I think that that is a bad thing, and as a formerly obsessed modeler I find that nice, but agree...who the heck would notice?
After mentioning ZBrush I was just trying some grass (fibermesh-based), and that works quite nicely for simple grass (no elaborate plumes and seeds). I'll drop some at NWDA (to attract some folks ;)) for free after I finished some trials. They're good for overall coverage.
Quote from: Dune on January 23, 2016, 11:33:05 AM
After mentioning ZBrush I was just trying some grass (fibermesh-based), and that works quite nicely for simple grass (no elaborate plumes and seeds). I'll drop some at NWDA (to attract some folks ;)) for free after I finished some trials. They're good for overall coverage.
cool, we can never have too much generic grass...thank you Ulco
Quote from: bobbystahr on January 23, 2016, 10:42:32 AM
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on January 23, 2016, 06:35:04 AM
I always wondered if one just shuts up about how he/she created their models, then who will ever find out?
IIRC XFrog noticed similarities between XFrog presets and Lightnings work and that that is what made it all start.
Creating grass in ST/TPF from scratch; my guess is that no one will notice.
We seem to be a bit OCD about being honest,....not that I think that that is a bad thing, and as a formerly obsessed modeler I find that nice, but agree...who the heck would notice?
Well, I think there would be a few people who might. My youngest daughter married a guy who works for a major (worldwide) music house, and his only job is to track down music played by businesses (eg background music, elevator music, music while on hold to name just few) and ensure those businesses are paying appropriate royalties. We've had a few discussions about the lengths he and others go to to enforce music copyright and entitlements, and based on what I know now I wouldn't even think about trying to play pilfered music in a public setting if I had my own business.
Assuming same would hold true in art world as well. The fact that xFrog even noticed the similarities makes me think that 'someone' out there is actively looking for copyright infringers/ripoffs. Almost have to assume same is true of TPF/ST/any other art software.
If you're just a hobbiest making images for your own pleasure then generally you won't noticed. But if you're submitting completed works of art to semi-public forums like this or (more importantly) actually trying to make $$ from your work, I think you have to assume someone will eventually be checking for connections between your work of art and their product.
I can very well understand that, having my own trouble sometimes with copyright infringement on my work, but for simple models it's one thing to notice a similarity, but quite another to prove it's been made in a certain modeler. After all, polys can be put down and bent/added in all sorts of ways, taken through other modelers, and so on. And grass kind of always looks similar to other grass, on the whole. Just putting some oil on the fire ;)
Here's a small image of the grasses I referred to. ZB+Poseray.
Quote from: Dune on January 23, 2016, 11:52:22 AM
I can very well understand that, having my own trouble sometimes with copyright infringement on my work, but for simple models it's one thing to notice a similarity, but quite another to prove it's been made in a certain modeler. After all, polys can be put down and bent/added in all sorts of ways, taken through other modelers, and so on. And grass kind of always looks similar to other grass, on the whole. Just putting some oil on the fire ;)
Here's a small image of the grasses I referred to. ZB+Poseray.
This. Exactly.
Nice fiber-grass. :)
They didn't notice a similarity simply,he was braging in public forums what he had done.
So he was begging for it.
Quote from: j meyer on January 23, 2016, 12:13:44 PM
Nice fiber-grass. :)
They didn't notice a similarity simply,he was braging in public forums what he had done.
So he was begging for it.
Ah right, so I did not recall correctly.
Bragging about it ain't particularly smart indeed :)
^^Being a rebel is all about getting the T-shirt these days. ;D ;D
...
The only thing I am confused about in this thread is the implied idea that there are not already free grass models of high quality to use. What precisely is the gap that the OP grass was trying to fill? Or is just about having more of everything to better get diversity in renders easier?
Not against it at all! Seems if we all wanted there are enough of us that we could have a modeling week where each of us just makes one grass patch, could end up with quite a good collection then. Just make them TGO so that they stay in the community.
PS could lock them if it were a kinda official effort or something. Host them in a file sharing sticky.
Mehhh, too much work!.. maybe not.
If you guys make original, high quality grass models that you're OK sharing with the TG community for free, we would gladly host them and make them part of the official freebie downloads on our main site. All the components would have to be original though (including e.g. textures), or the original licenses of any assets you used would have to be compatible with free distribution.
- Oshyan
That seems good enough to agree with, so agreed.
I will commit to one model of serious effort if others do. Hannes already got two people! A few more and it would really be worth it as a kinda solitary group effort.
That grass that Ulco posted above looks quite desirable ;)
I'd also be willing to provide a few freebies for the TG group.
I should crack open Imagine. Haven't really been in a modeling mode but it seems we have a movement happening.
Okay, I've made a bunch of basic grasses (some singles and some patches), and sent them to Danny. I'm sure he'll put them up one of these days. Freebie.
Can never have enough grass.
If ya remember what Freewheelin Franklin sez... 8)
There are three populations in the pic.............just basic generic grass.
Quote from: yossam on January 24, 2016, 12:16:18 PM
There are three populations in the pic.............just basic generic grass.
your own home made grass?
Yep.................. :)
Cool!
I will do one too starting on Monday. Though I think that I will try to make a different kind of grass since with what is being done in this thread and what is already available makes me totally satisfied ! 8)
SO, what kind of grass should I try? how about one of these here, Can remember a few times that I wish I had some grass like these (I would like to try something that people will actually want if I am going a little off of the road map here, something that will be desirable to more than just me and one or two others (It will probably take me longer than others to do it, so I don't want it to suck or be unwanted ;))):
http://www.freewebheaders.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/grass/beautiful-green-tall-grass-field-illustration-background-header.jpg kinda like carpet or shaggy bear fur.
http://www.abstractinfluence.com/forums/gallery/image.php?album_id=5&image_id=7282 the lower green part, also like a bad hair day.
http://jeffersonvillepresbyterian.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/2014/03/tall-grass.jpg already models like this available for free or cheap, but I thought I could add the wind blown look to it using the tools I have
http://david.tryse.net/2009-06m%20Nepal,%20Chitwan%20II/SG104177.JPG basically just like a reed plant but with ought the fruit. Cant have too much of this kinda stuff either.
What should I spend my time doing? Too busy to learn how to do them all.
Quote from: TheBadger on January 24, 2016, 03:22:28 PM
Cool!
I will do one too starting on Monday. Though I think that I will try to make a different kind of grass since with what is being done in this thread and what is already available makes me totally satisfied ! 8)
SO, what kind of grass should I try? how about one of these here, Can remember a few times that I wish I had some grass like these (I would like to try something that people will actually want if I am going a little off of the road map here, something that will be desirable to more than just me and one or two others (It will probably take me longer than others to do it, so I don't want it to suck or be unwanted ;))):
http://www.freewebheaders.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/grass/beautiful-green-tall-grass-field-illustration-background-header.jpg kinda like carpet or shaggy bear fur.
http://www.abstractinfluence.com/forums/gallery/image.php?album_id=5&image_id=7282 the lower green part, also like a bad hair day.
http://jeffersonvillepresbyterian.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/2014/03/tall-grass.jpg already models like this available for free or cheap, but I thought I could add the wind blown look to it using the tools I have
http://david.tryse.net/2009-06m%20Nepal,%20Chitwan%20II/SG104177.JPG basically just like a reed plant but with ought the fruit. Cant have too much of this kinda stuff either.
What should I spend my time doing? Too busy to learn how to do them all.
Does not matter since all looks pretty cool! Just do one :D
I agree.............they all look good. For me, finding hi res textures is a PIB. You can make one model and change it a million times with the right textures. ;)
All three photographs look like interesting candidates but the first one in particular is a bit difficult to make out the details. A name of the species would help greatly.
As for the renders, good stuff.
QuoteFor me, finding hi res textures is a PIB. You can make one model and change it a million times with the right textures.
funny that you said that. I am having a very frustrating time finding half of what I need now for something else. And about the grass I was thinking about how I would texture it, I thought maybe I should send to someone else for that part ;D good to know texture hell is not a lonely place.
But ok, it will be like the images in terms of bear fur wind look. I will let how easy or hard it goes decide what the species will be
See you in a week
My contribution, image files and TGO uploaded to file sharing section. (Should it have gone somewhere else?)
Made in Blender so can be used without restriction. Noticed that Yossam and Dune had characters in their attendant images so assume this is some standard that must be followed? ;D
Nice grass...............I just put something in for size reference. I don't think it is a requirement............ :P
if you are putting a naked lady in, I think that every one should! That should be a rule.
Quote(Should it have gone somewhere else?)
I just hoped that everything would be in one place. Things could get added to over time that way. So a sticky at least, in sharing would be helpful "ground cover" or "user grass" or something. Things get buried and forgotten in sharing too easy it feels like.
Some what is already here is very nice. Should not be allowed to get lost imo
Once everyone has posted their models we'll pick a few of the best and make them available for download more directly.
- Oshyan
Quote from: Oshyan on January 24, 2016, 10:12:15 PM
Once everyone has posted their models we'll pick a few of the best and make them available for download more directly.
- Oshyan
Smart!
Agreed. Here is more testing. I need to fix the specular but not to certain how.
Quote from: Chris on January 23, 2016, 02:35:37 AM
I'm working on this. Made entirely from scratch.
Can you make another version of this with grass standing more taller (or not as bent)? The two could be combined to create areas where grass has been somewhat flattened. By snow, animals, people, or whatever? Just a idea I saw when looking at that grass.
Very good work so far. I have not even started :-D Will be able to do so in 8-10h ... but I doubt, that I can beat your progress.
Quote from: WASasquatch on January 25, 2016, 03:08:33 AM
Quote from: Chris on January 23, 2016, 02:35:37 AM
I'm working on this. Made entirely from scratch.
Can you make another version of this with grass standing more taller (or not as bent)? The two could be combined to create areas where grass has been somewhat flattened. By snow, animals, people, or whatever? Just a idea I saw when looking at that grass.
Certainly.
I really like what happens here!!! :) :) :)
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B81ES6gGfOHSZFJvMHRqUjhDREk (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B81ES6gGfOHSZFJvMHRqUjhDREk)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/716eeix7jtw1925/PaQGrass.rar?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/716eeix7jtw1925/PaQGrass.rar?dl=0)
Hello,
Model Format : obj
Model created by myself using GrowFX (legit user).
Some additional shading/color variation is obviously needed, but I'm not very my comfortable to do it the 'right' way in Terragen.
Yesssss. I expect to see people's scenes much more heavily (and realistically) populated with grass from here on out. :D
- Oshyan
Awesome Paq, some of the finest grass I've seen and I've seen a lotta "grass", hee hee hee
Quote from: Oshyan on January 25, 2016, 03:53:02 PM
Yesssss. I expect to see people's scenes much more heavily (and realistically) populated with grass from here on out. :D
- Oshyan
no kidding eh...this is one great community
Ah man, now I kinda want to give up.
Very nice, paq.
Thanks a lot for doing this Paq, very much appreciated :)
I will have fun with these in the near future.
Cheers,
Martin
@ Paq - excellent grass!
That is some lovely grass there. Great job.
Fantastic grass.................thanks bunches. ;)
to those with no modeling software try this
Bantam Grass
http://horo.ch/raytracing/tools/b3dg_en.html
cool if someone at the end does a render with all the grasses in one scene. Some rolling hills and just super divers meticulously placed populations. could end up being a pretty great little render.
I looked at some tuts on what I wanted to do. I think I will be able to do it pretty easy relative to how long I thought it would take. so thats nice. Thankfully, there is lots of free info on the topics. Often kinda hit and miss with things 3D and on line learning.
Merci, Glad you like it !
Thanks a lot, paq. Very nice grass.
Can someone share the model of paq somewhere? I cannot open his link... :-\
Quote from: archonforest on January 26, 2016, 06:23:21 AM
Can someone share the model of paq somewhere? I cannot open his link... :-\
Are you sure, it's a Google drive and the models are too heavy to share any other way I think, at least more (17 M) than my e mail will send.
Thanks kindly paq. :)
Quote from: bobbystahr on January 26, 2016, 10:14:09 AM
Quote from: archonforest on January 26, 2016, 06:23:21 AM
Can someone share the model of paq somewhere? I cannot open his link... :-\
Are you sure, it's a Google drive and the models are too heavy to share any other way I think, at least more (17 M) than my e mail will send.
OKay bobby thanx for the try. :)
Maybe someone can put it on dropbox? Anyone...?
Is that one working for you ?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/716eeix7jtw1925/PaQGrass.rar?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/716eeix7jtw1925/PaQGrass.rar?dl=0)
Quote from: paq on January 26, 2016, 12:20:30 PM
Is that one working for you ?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/716eeix7jtw1925/PaQGrass.rar?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/716eeix7jtw1925/PaQGrass.rar?dl=0)
yes sir! :)
Thx a bunch!
Quote from: paq on January 26, 2016, 12:20:30 PM
Is that one working for you ?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/716eeix7jtw1925/PaQGrass.rar?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/716eeix7jtw1925/PaQGrass.rar?dl=0)
nice of you man! cool 8) move...but I think the Google Drive was a faster download if you're interested in that stuff....
Thanks much paq, very nice.
Modified the textures for some brownish variety grass and a tgo of the Large High Density patch which uses a setup for world space variation in both hue and saturation.
Raising the black level in the Colour Adjust will make the variations stronger. Lowering the black level makes them weaker.
Paths to the textures in the grass default shaders need to be re-assigned to fit your own file structure.
Quote from: fleetwood on January 26, 2016, 06:46:38 PM
Thanks much paq, very nice.
Modified the textures for some brownish variety grass and a tgo of the Large High Density patch which uses a setup for world space variation in both hue and saturation.
Raising the black level in the Colour Adjust will make the variations stronger. Lowering the black level makes them weaker.
Paths to the textures in the grass default shaders need to be re-assigned to fit your own file structure.
Brilliant and thanks....
Neat idea. That can be very useful.
Thanks for the scene fleetwood !
I did a sizing test re: paq's grasses only dealing with LushGrassVar.3, but I'm guessing the proportions apply, in the Terragen Discussion section.
http://www.planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,21093.0.html
Sorry for the delay. Took my a while longer to get to this. But I did get to it.
Easier than I thought it would be for what I wanted to try. Not yet finished or even sure yet how to get it to you guys, but here is where I am at so far.
[attach=1]
Right now I am just trying to get the feel of it right. Ill work on texture last. I wish I could think of the name of the grass that I am trying to replicate! I know it is a real thing cuz I have seen it many many times. It looks almost like fur in terms of density and how it lays. It is also super nice to walk on bare foot. Defiantly not "normal" grass. I often see it in gardens. But being winter now I can't go to the public gardens now and get the name. Any ideas based on the description?
Let me know your thoughts so I can make this the way people will want it!
cheers.
^^ Never mind that. It can't be exported the way I did it. Ill do it the *normal* way now >:(
I'd have to guess "uncut lawn grass"
no, but does not matter. I can't do what I wanted. And doing it the other way (normal) modeling way is outside of what I know.
I put a grass object in FS included with some crystals.
http://www.planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,21125.0.html
Too bad though. Maybe in the next version I will be able to apply settings from the Maya fur to paint objects or even save geometry from the fur.
Do you have any photograph references of what you are trying to achieve?
No, sorry. And I really wanted to make it too, but ended up not being able to see it clearly enough in my mind. I am sure I will go to that garden this spring, and I always go to that grass patch because I like it so much. Not sure how it would work as a model but Ill get a photo so people know what I am ranting about. Looks real nice in the gardens anyway.
Quote from: TheBadger on February 05, 2016, 01:19:43 PM
I wish I could think of the name of the grass that I am trying to replicate! I know it is a real thing cuz I have seen it many many times. It looks almost like fur in terms of density and how it lays. It is also super nice to walk on bare foot. Defiantly not "normal" grass. I often see it in gardens.
zoysia grass maybe?
Quote from: masonspappy on February 05, 2016, 11:02:40 PM
zoysia grass maybe?
HA! Thanks!
I was able to find the grass from your post. I guess the grass I was thinking of is called fescue which is similar to zoysia
http://f.tqn.com/y/lawncare/1/S/K/3/-/-/fescue-101318232-resized.jpg
http://f.tqn.com/y/lawncare/1/W/8/3/-/-/fescue-resized.jpg
http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/10/63/03/2306282/11/920x920.jpg
I would have said the blades were wider from memory, but this looks like its it. Ill be sure to check this spring. Thanks Cam!
Quote from: TheBadger on February 05, 2016, 11:42:01 PM
Quote from: masonspappy on February 05, 2016, 11:02:40 PM
zoysia grass maybe?
HA! Thanks!
I was able to find the grass from your post. I guess the grass I was thinking of is called fescue which is similar to zoysia
http://f.tqn.com/y/lawncare/1/S/K/3/-/-/fescue-101318232-resized.jpg
http://f.tqn.com/y/lawncare/1/W/8/3/-/-/fescue-resized.jpg
http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/10/63/03/2306282/11/920x920.jpg
I would have said the blades were wider from memory, but this looks like its it. Ill be sure to check this spring. Thanks Cam!
This fescue would be an awesome addition, be interesting to see how it turns out.
That would be a very nice grass, but also quite heavy.
Quote from: Dune on February 06, 2016, 02:01:20 AM
That would be a very nice grass, but also quite heavy.
yup, but very cool for ditches and the like....has a wild prairie feel to it.
reminds me of places where animals bed down or crop circles
Hope to see someone who knows what they are doing try this too. I thought that I was getting quite close in the render I posted above. But as soon as I learned that there was no way to export (only works at render time) I had to find a different way. But the best way I have to do it is the way that won't export. I suppose that I could import a terrain into maya and do it there, but that obviously does not serve this thread.
Thanks guys.
I am working on this.
Easy enough in ST, but....
Which one or ones look the most acceptable?
This could make good shoreline seaweed too!
Quote from: Chris on February 07, 2016, 03:48:04 AM
Which one or ones look the most acceptable?
to me the 2 at top right.
Quote from: Dune on February 07, 2016, 02:50:37 AM
Easy enough in ST, but....
some one has to talk to those folks...who do they think they are ...M$?
Quote from: bobbystahr on February 07, 2016, 10:52:33 AM
Quote from: Chris on February 07, 2016, 03:48:04 AM
Which one or ones look the most acceptable?
to me the 2 at top right.
That is what i am leaning toward as well. It looks to be the closest to Fescue grass.
Quote from: Chris on February 07, 2016, 04:32:35 PM
Quote from: bobbystahr on February 07, 2016, 10:52:33 AM
Quote from: Chris on February 07, 2016, 03:48:04 AM
Which one or ones look the most acceptable?
to me the 2 at top right.
That is what i am leaning toward as well. It looks to be the closest to Fescue grass.
Agree. But I would also add the one at the bottom left. Seems that the three should be mixed and matched into single variations as well. TG will of course add the randomness from populations of one or the other, but looking at the reference pics you really want to get a nice thick coat of fur look. I used "Bison" fur as the base for what I tried with very quickly brought me close to the goal by virtue of the nature of the fur.
Still, looks good, Chris. Just chiming in while you are at it.
The thickness is easy enough using a more dense population.
Still doing tests.
I think i am done with this for now. Rather challenging Grass to say the least. If anyone want's these, let me know. It seems what would make this work is the Grass colliding with the terrain laying on top of it.
It would make pretty good crop circles, or with a color change beach grass. :P
Certainly, why not.
Quote from: Chris on February 10, 2016, 10:27:31 PM
I think i am done with this for now. Rather challenging Grass to say the least. If anyone want's these, let me know. It seems what would make this work is the Grass colliding with the terrain laying on top of it.
I would like it to mess around with...I think it'll work for what I envision.
If someone could use these, then not a problem.