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General => Image Sharing => Topic started by: sboerner on July 11, 2020, 12:41:28 PM

Title: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on July 11, 2020, 12:41:28 PM
Another canal image, a work in progress. The location is central New York, an area called The Noses where the Mohawk River cuts through the Appalachian ridge. The Erie Canal was built alongside. The date is June 1825. Terrain is done except for a few tweaks. Still need to add models. There will be boats! (And a few passengers.)
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on July 12, 2020, 01:24:09 AM
That looks like a cool new project! Great setting so far. I always find it fascinating to see a higher-than-ground water level in a canal (we have such a situation 200m from our house, with a little harbor). It shows well here.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: mhaze on July 12, 2020, 04:55:11 AM
Beautiful - very painterly.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Hannes on July 12, 2020, 05:04:28 AM
Fantastic!!! This could be a final image for sure!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on July 12, 2020, 09:30:57 PM
Thanks, all. I knew the foliage was going to be front and center in this image, so I spent quite a bit of time on that. Otherwise it's coming together pretty quickly. (For me, anyway.)

I wanted to share these two images to show how the terrain came together. I started with a 2-meter DEM downloaded from the New York State Geographic Information Systems website (http://gis.ny.gov/elevation/) ("before" image). It's pretty nice quality but of course it includes many modern details such as an expressway and other roadbeds. The exported .ter file was imported into a new TG scene and "terraformed" to remove those and then, using old survey maps as references, restore the location of the Mohawk River channel, insert the canal, and add procedural detail ("after").

It was all pretty simple because all the changes were on the flat valley floor. I have another project in mind that would involve editing some DEM slopes to restore surfaces that have been excavated away. Maybe there's a way to use a painted shader to paint the elevations back in? Doesn't sound easy.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: masonspappy on July 12, 2020, 10:30:35 PM
Like this image. Nicely done!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on July 20, 2020, 03:56:18 PM
Model of a Durham boat, which was used on the Mohawk River in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Needs a crew, but that will have to wait till the canal packet boat is done so I can do all the human figures at once.

The boat was square rigged but was usually pushed upstream with set poles, so the scene will probably show both.

I'm noticing a seam on the water surface along the x-axis. I know this has been discussed here before but am not sure how to fix it.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: masonspappy on July 20, 2020, 09:38:30 PM
Nice model
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Jo Kariboo on July 20, 2020, 11:08:35 PM
Nice image, it's a promising new project!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on July 21, 2020, 01:25:53 AM
Great boat! And a very good scene already. The only thing that struck me is the coarseness of the sail fabric. I think it should be decreased in size a bit.

If you use a lake, you could try shifting the object to get rid of the line. Or use a sphere. I think that's causes the line, though I always seem to forget what it was exactly.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on July 21, 2020, 10:49:20 AM
Thanks Jo, masonspappy. This has been a good project so far, just a typical Terragen scene, a nice change of pace from the previous. :)

You're right about the sail fabric, Ulco. I'll reduce that a bit.

As far as the seam in the water, I'm using a sphere. Hannes mentioned detail jittering or microvertex jittering in one of Kadri's threads recently (https://planetside.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,28027.15.html), but I'm not sure how it was eventually solved. I'm not too concerned about it because it probably won't be visible from the final camera angle. And if it is, well, there's always Photoshop.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on September 22, 2020, 12:07:58 PM
New Durham boat model in place on the Mohawk River. This is the same one that was used in the "Crossing" rendering but with mast and rigging shipped and propulsion provided by four polemen. This model is probably more accurate than the preceding one as it is based on one discovered at the bottom a nearby lake.

Researching and building this model (and the other scene) resulted in a two-month detour . . . looking forward to moving ahead on this scene now.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: WAS on September 22, 2020, 01:22:09 PM
The texturing work is top notch. Really! Like look at the helmsman guiding the boat, he's worn the deck smooth,  and scuffed off most the oil staining or dried the deck of splashed water! 

That's realism.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Kadri on September 22, 2020, 01:33:57 PM
Looks great. The texturing and lighting is very nice.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on September 22, 2020, 02:04:34 PM
Great work, fantastic scene!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: bobbystahr on September 22, 2020, 04:49:41 PM
Quote from: sboerner on September 22, 2020, 12:07:58 PMNew Durham boat model in place on the Mohawk River. This is the same one that was used in the "Crossing" rendering but with mast and rigging shipped and propulsion provided by four polemen. This model is probably more accurate than the preceding one as it is based on one discovered at the bottom a nearby lake.

Researching and building this model (and the other scene) resulted in a two-month detour . . . looking forward to moving ahead on this scene now.
although a still image it feels animated...well done; and great boat!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: DocCharly65 on September 23, 2020, 01:27:41 AM
Wonderful scene.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Luc on September 23, 2020, 02:07:32 AM
Yes I like a lot too !  :)

luc
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: N-drju on September 23, 2020, 02:17:46 AM
Quote from: sboerner on September 22, 2020, 12:07:58 PMResearching and building this model (and the other scene) resulted in a two-month detour . . . looking forward to moving ahead on this scene now.

It was well worth it. Did you use fixed textures, procedural texturing or a combination of both?

I like this project - a lot of learning material here.
;)
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Hannes on September 23, 2020, 05:18:09 AM
Beautiful!!! And indeed very well texturing.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on September 23, 2020, 11:54:14 AM
Thanks, everyone.


QuoteDid you use fixed textures, procedural texturing or a combination of both?
The shading was all done in Painter. The largest textures are only 2k so I'm a little surprised that they seem so detailed. There are also height maps (bumps) for the deck planking but those don't seem to be showing up at all, probably because the planks are aligned with the sun.

This was just a quick test but you've all encouraged me to give it another look. Maybe I'll try to improve the composition and use higher-resolution textures to make something a little more "finished."
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: masonspappy on September 24, 2020, 02:41:05 AM
Very well done indeed!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on September 25, 2020, 10:15:43 PM
Same scene, different take.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on September 26, 2020, 03:09:09 AM
Wonderful!

One thing perhaps; is the 'dullness' intentional, like an old image? And perhaps another thing; the camera angle is a bit 'straight'. What if you angle it so there's more lines towards the horizon, if you get my point?
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on September 26, 2020, 01:43:43 PM
QuoteOne thing perhaps; is the 'dullness' intentional, like an old image?
Yes and no . . . the atmosphere haze is set to a fairly high value. I also increased Bluesky density/Redsky decay to give it more of an early-morning feeling, but the overall effect seems to be that the tonal range of the image just gets flattened. Probably should remove that.



QuoteAnd perhaps another thing; the camera angle is a bit 'straight'.
This is intentional. I've been studying the paintings of George Caleb Bingham and other early-American genre painters (mainly as information sources for clothing, hair, tools, etc.). I wanted this image to follow in their footsteps, so to speak. So many of their paintings employ simple perspectives and straight horizons . . . for them, the natural landscape becomes a framing device. (Perhaps it doesn't succeed as well as I hoped but I thought it was worth a try. :) )

Appreciate the constructive criticism. As usual, Ulco, you are spot on.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Jo Kariboo on September 26, 2020, 03:38:39 PM
Very good work but I prefer the previous one which I had not seen and which I find excellent!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on September 27, 2020, 02:01:37 AM
I looked him up; interesting painter. I now see your intention. You succeeded, no doubt about that! Colorwise and compositionally.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on September 27, 2020, 11:38:31 AM
QuoteVery good work but I prefer the previous one which I had not seen and which I find excellent!
Thank you, Jo. I know what you mean but I was curious to see what might happen if I pushed it a little bit.


QuoteI looked him up; interesting painter. I now see your intention.
Bingham had a terrific eye for detail, and meticulously recorded it, which is why I like to use his paintings as visual references. (There are no photos, of course, from the period I'm interested in.)

QuoteYou succeeded, no doubt about that! Colorwise and compositionally.
Thanks. Still fussing with it. This is just a spinoff and not the primary scene for this project, but there are a couple of small things I want to try.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on October 04, 2020, 12:44:17 AM
Final version, for now anyway. (Ready to get back to the main scene.)
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on October 04, 2020, 01:25:18 AM
I like this version better! It has more freshness, like a moist early morning scene. And still Bingham!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Jo Kariboo on October 04, 2020, 08:51:15 AM
Very nice work, but my favorite is this one for the camera angle. The slight diagonal that the boat makes makes the scene more lively.

 theNoses_camera24mm_renderLores_tgBeauty_20200922-0028_5h42m29s.0001_1600.jpg
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on October 04, 2020, 01:15:10 PM
QuoteI like this version better! It has more freshness, like a moist early morning scene. And still Bingham!
Thank you, Ulco.



QuoteVery nice work, but my favorite is this one for the camera angle. The slight diagonal that the boat makes makes the scene more lively.
Thanks, Pierre. Perhaps I'm trying a little too hard. :D


Meanwhile, here is a test rendering of a packet (passenger) boat for the primary scene. I have not been able to find any detailed period drawings of early Erie Canal packet boats, so this is based on plans drawn up by another researcher. Colors are based on contemporary paintings and descriptions. Need to add a crew and passengers.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on October 05, 2020, 02:40:26 AM
Great boat. And it looks Dutch.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Hannes on October 05, 2020, 10:31:52 AM
Quote from: Dune on October 04, 2020, 01:25:18 AMI like this version better! It has more freshness, like a moist early morning scene. And still Bingham!
Agreed. Looks beautiful!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on October 05, 2020, 01:24:10 PM
QuoteGreat boat. And it looks Dutch.
That's really interesting. As I'm sure you know the Hudson Valley and much of the Mohawk River Valley in NY were originally settled by the Dutch, and when construction of the Erie Canal began American engineers looked to European examples for lock and boat designs. Several members of the original canal commission, which managed construction and operation of the canal, were of Dutch descent (including DeWitt Clinton and Stephen van Rensselaer, for whom this boat is named). Many connections.



QuoteAgreed. Looks beautiful!
Thank you, Hannes!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on October 06, 2020, 02:47:31 AM
Indeed interesting. I know NY is actually a Dutch colony :P ;D
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: DocCharly65 on October 07, 2020, 01:25:40 AM
Nice boat. That will be a wonderful scenery again.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on October 18, 2020, 10:20:17 PM
A fashionable couple for the packet boat. Perhaps on their way to see Niagara Falls.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on October 19, 2020, 02:28:34 AM
Wow, they look great. Marvelous clothing :P , but their expressions are spot on. You can see the love in the guy and the wonder of the lady. Fantastic.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Hannes on October 19, 2020, 03:00:03 AM
Quote from: Dune on October 19, 2020, 02:28:34 AMMarvelous clothing (https://www.planetside.co.uk/forums/Smileys/fugue/tongue.png)
Oh yes. Fantastic!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: DocCharly65 on October 19, 2020, 03:29:30 AM
Fantastic clothing!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on October 19, 2020, 05:14:47 PM
Thanks! And speaking of marvelous, the parasol fabric (a quick mesh done in Blender) was bothering me so I redid it in Marvelous Designer. This is turning out to be such a great tool, useful for many things.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on October 20, 2020, 02:45:14 AM
It is indeed. I used it to hang a rope across a branch, recently.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on October 21, 2020, 02:56:02 PM
Haven't posted a work-in-progress of the entire scene for a while, so here is where things stand. Besides the couple the packet boat now has a steersman. More passengers to be added, as well as a three-horse tandem rig with driver for towing. But coming down the home stretch.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Kadri on October 21, 2020, 08:09:18 PM
Nice image.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: DocCharly65 on October 22, 2020, 12:47:35 AM
How idyllic and beautiful! Nice!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: WAS on October 22, 2020, 12:49:00 AM
What a nice use of those two models. Very romantic n
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on October 22, 2020, 01:22:14 AM
Wow, what a beauty this is going to be... and already is! It might even be distracting with more people on the roof, I very much like this private boat tour. The lighting of the couple on the boat is superb, with the dark rock behind. Very inspirational.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Hannes on October 22, 2020, 05:11:56 AM
A lovely scene. Very well executed!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Jo Kariboo on October 22, 2020, 09:33:35 AM
Pretty designs and good attention to old-fashioned details. You have the merit of making the majority of your objects and characters yourself, just like Dune. The light on the characters is superb!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on October 22, 2020, 01:33:31 PM
Thanks, everyone. I'll probably put 8-10 people on the top deck. It's midmorning so we'll just say the remaining passengers are still in the cabin at breakfast. :) There needs to be some luggage too – that also went on the roof. Have to see how it works out. I'll try to find a compromise between historical accuracy and visual clarity.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on October 27, 2020, 05:14:20 PM
Another couple for the packet.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on October 28, 2020, 03:05:57 AM
Gorgous again!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: DocCharly65 on October 28, 2020, 03:14:44 AM
Great!
In the presence of the last couple, I wouldn't dare to curse - it would feel disrespectful and offensive :)
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: DMFW on October 31, 2020, 07:05:02 AM
Reading this whole thread I'm really impressed with the attention to detail and the effort put into the crafting of this project. Very inspiring and educational as well (for me anyway). Looks like you are working towards a masterpiece.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Jo Kariboo on October 31, 2020, 09:22:13 PM
Very nice again!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on November 01, 2020, 06:02:50 PM
Thanks, everyone. Just now working on a tandem horse hitch for the towing team . . . taking a little more time than expected.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on November 11, 2020, 09:13:42 PM
Tandem rig and driver to power the packet boat.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: WAS on November 11, 2020, 11:05:36 PM
Looking good! I have to say though the left foot placement of the center horse makes him/her look like it's slacking. Lol
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on November 12, 2020, 01:56:48 AM
Great! But if pulling a boat (with a lot of passengers) wouldn't they need to strain themselves more, leaning more forward? On the other hand, a ship isn't too heavy to pull once it moves.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on November 12, 2020, 11:40:24 AM
Thanks. And yes I think once they were underway it was just a matter of maintaining forward momentum. Here are a couple of images. Not sure of the date of the photo but it would have to be after 1850 or so. The painting is contemporary (1829) and is what I based the models on.

It was still hard work though. Horses were switched out every eight miles. Later on mules hauling freight would be switched out after six-hour shifts (around 18-20 miles).
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Jo Kariboo on November 12, 2020, 05:05:50 PM
Quote from: sboerner on November 11, 2020, 09:13:42 PMTandem rig and driver to power the packet boat.
Very nice you have a personal style in the design of the objects !
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on November 13, 2020, 01:35:22 PM
Thanks! Doing my best to make things authentic and keep guesswork to a minimum.

Here is the latest iteration with the team in place and some new foreground details. This will probably be the last iteration I post before it's completed. Just need to add luggage and a few more passengers on the boat.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Hannes on November 13, 2020, 05:10:51 PM
Beautiful!!! One thing: the plants next to the path are standing very straight. Maybe some lean effect would make it look a bit more natural.
And I'd love to see this rendered with the path tracer. Especially the plants to the right would benefit from that.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on November 14, 2020, 02:00:53 AM
Absolutely gorgeous! I am glad you didn't put more people on the roof, it's great now. The light is beautiful. And I'm inclined to believe this IS path traced.

I agree with Hannes about the weeds' straightness. Maybe a few more species would benefit the render as well. And there are also two areas of branches that struck me, in a less than positive way; the dead log with its protruding dark sticky branch (which looks a bit strange), and on the right there's a tree with 3 kind of the same branches above each other. I would probably do something about those areas.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Jo Kariboo on November 14, 2020, 09:55:30 AM
It is very nice! Historically, I just learned that there was a time when some pleasure craft was pulled by horses.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on November 14, 2020, 12:30:11 PM
Thanks! There will be some changes before it is finished, including a few more people on the roof. These boats could carry up to 50-60 or more passengers. No way I'm putting that many on board, but I will probably add another small group near the bow. Also need to add luggage. Hopefully there's a way to maintain clarity and composition while conveying a sense of what traveling on these boats was really like. (Every contemporary account I've read mentions how crowded they were.)

I appreciate the comments about the foliage. There are five or six species on the ground now next to the towpath, so maybe it's just a matter of making a few more variations. Leaning some of them is a good idea. And those branches in the upper right have been bothering me, too. I worked so hard on that fallen tree trunk!  :) But I'll have a look at that awkward branch too.

And Ulco is correct – this is path traced. I've been experimenting with ways to improve the shadow detail – increasing GI prepass padding (at 0.5 now) and max paths (now at 36). I don't think I need to add a fill light (like a plane to reflect light back into the shadows). Overall I think the natural contrast looks pretty good.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Hannes on November 14, 2020, 12:34:19 PM
Quote from: sboerner on November 14, 2020, 12:30:11 PMAnd Ulco is correct - this is path traced.
Oh, I missed that! Is there any additional lighting? Looking at the plants to the right, I would have bet, it's not path traced...

Nevertheless it's an amazing scenery!
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on November 14, 2020, 01:08:08 PM
No additional lighting, just the sun which is just above the crest of the cliff at top right (out of the frame). A high layer of cirrus clouds softens it slightly and provides some fill. I was wondering if the scene needs additional lighting . . . I'd say not.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: DocCharly65 on November 14, 2020, 02:53:09 PM
Great result so far!

Now waiting for the final with the already announced little corrections like the branches and the leaning groundcover. But I like it already.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: WAS on November 14, 2020, 04:59:04 PM
These are really cool. With the latest one I notice the plants in the water don't extent past the boat. It would bee cool to see them diffuse the water edges along the canal. But really beautiful scene.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on November 16, 2020, 06:22:16 PM
QuoteWith the latest one I notice the plants in the water don't extent past the boat. It would bee cool to see them diffuse the water edges along the canal.

Thanks for noticing that. I think I just did a small patch as a test early on and then forgot about it. Adding it to my list . . .

Here is an assortment of pioneer luggage for the top of the packet boat. Not much detail but more than enough considering the distance.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on November 23, 2020, 02:22:16 PM
This will be the final version (or at least very close). Framing has been tightened (55mm to 60mm lens), the sun has been backed up 35 minutes for a lower angle. Little more TLC for the towpath. Luggage and a couple more passengers for the packet. More arrowheads for the canal bank, and some curvature added to the milkweed stems (though not much; in real life they have hollow, straight stems).

Learned a lot, as usual. And am gradually building a good library of assets. On to the next scene.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: DocCharly65 on November 24, 2020, 12:21:34 AM
It's a bit a pity that the wonderful luggage no longer comes into its own.
But the whole render is a masterpiece :)
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on November 24, 2020, 01:37:46 AM
Wonderful! The light is still beautifully arranged, all objects fall into perfect place. But there's one more thing. The vegetation on the opposite side on the right seems to have a few slightly undulating horizontal black lines across the pop. I think it's because it's only one type, and all more or less the same size. So I think you should either mix in one or a few more types with leaves at different heights, or alternatively, have the pop sit on an extra PF with 10cm displacement and -5cm offset (hanging at the end of the line).
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: mhaze on November 24, 2020, 01:07:19 PM
This just gets better and better.
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: sboerner on November 25, 2020, 12:21:41 PM
Thanks everyone.


QuoteBut there's one more thing. The vegetation on the opposite side on the right seems to have a few slightly undulating horizontal black lines across the pop.
Thanks, Ulco. I'm running a high-res rendering now and will see how it looks after that. If it's distracting it might be time to use the Photoshop shader. ;)
Title: Re: Along the Mohawk
Post by: Dune on November 26, 2020, 02:29:33 AM
;D