A pair of months ago I thought about a project utilizing TG2 to represent the notorius Mars rover in action.
I started it in my spare time just for fun... and quickly turned out into a real obsession. What came out is a more-than-a-month work with a pretty complicated workflow to realize the final image.
The first thing to do was building the rover, done with AutoCAD. Even if pretty resemblant it's not intended to be exactly fit to reality - I modeled it almost exclusively "by eye" watching photographs, images taken by the rovers, the wonderful works of Dan Maas and little technical data collected over the internet. It was a real pain in the ass, but I also had a lot of fun working on it and discovered a lot of interesting things. Here's the first version, before additional modeling done in MAX
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5530/modelmb1.jpg)
The original intention was to import an .OBJ version into TG2 doing a straight render but the model continued to grow and grow up - too big, too many materials and complex shaders to work out. So I decided to split the workflow and utilize Mental Ray to render the rover then TG2 to complete the environment using LWO exporter and the EmecStudios plugin (very useful) to perfectly match cameras and lightsources.
So I set up the model materials with Mental Ray and simultaneously started working on a decent environment on TG2 where to place the finished rover. To get a perfect integration between the two render engines I recurred to image-based lighting and realized an HDR vertical cross of the finished .tgd with six separate images rendered in TG2 (then converted in a lat/long map with HDRShop) to use with MR indirect illumination and environment reflection (here's an 8 bit depht reduced version):
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1224/crossqk2.jpg)
The next step was creating an .LWO portion of the selected area to use as matte terrain in MAX to place the scaled rover, and to import a reduced poly .OBJ version in TG2 to create the wheel traces. I used an orthoprojection camera to render a terrain reference for Photoshop and paint the traces. The resulting texture was used as a displacement function in TG2
Here comes the final render, with the two images rendered in TG2 and MAX then linked together in PS
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3408/mergeddp1.jpg)
The rover shadow is rendered with Mental Ray over the matte terrain, then imported as an additional layer. All the image editing work has been done on .EXR format to get best control over tonal range.
This is not a final version, and I'm still not very satisfied with it but I decided to freeze the work until I'll have my hardware renewed - working with this project on a single core P4 was very painful. Maybe I'll post some other version with different balancing but the plan is to produce a serie of images in different environments and atmospheric conditions.
These are the main steps I followed to work things out, but if I should say all the things I've done over this project I could fill a little book on it ;D.
Even if it's not entirely TG2 I thought it would be fine to post it here and share my work with you, because Terragen has a fundamental part on it. Plus, it could be a good example on how to integrate our beloved scenery-generator software in articulated pipelines.
Regards,
Lucio
nice, I like the tracks alot too.
Holy ...., amazing work! :)
I have no idea how you exactly did all this work, too complicated for me (probably) ;D
If I understand correctly the TG part in the image is an image plane and you placed the rover on the right position in max, then render the rover + image plane in max?
I really like the concept and it is very well executed.
Martin
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on November 25, 2007, 05:11:40 PM
Holy ...., amazing work! :)
I have no idea how you exactly did all this work, too complicated for me (probably) ;D
If I understand correctly the TG part in the image is an image plane and you placed the rover on the right position in max, then render the rover + image plane in max?
I really like the concept and it is very well executed.
Martin
Thank you Martin!
All the environment is a TG2 image, while the rover is rendered with Mental Ray then "pasted" over the original image and cropped properly.
I forgot to say thanks to Adiwan for his very useful clip file to generate sand dunes, it gave me the right ideas :)
Very nice! The shadow of the rover doesn't quite match up to the Terragen, but both the rover and the Terragen look incredibly realistic! The model is great in and of itself. Beautiful work!
very nice work....
Excellent work on the Rover Nice incorperation to TG2
Great work
very good work !!! congrats for this one !
So that's how they did it...
;D
Thanks for the kind comments!
o_b: with a test render I checked the rover shadow projected by the dummy .OBJ imported in TG2 and is pretty similar.. I'll try to fake some edge to make it a bit more believable.
awesome job.
Here's an alternative version with different color range and shadows a bit improved. I'm undecided about what to do to get the best output but now it's time to stop working on it :)
(http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/9569/rover1layerow9.jpg)
just a concern....the tracks get kinda lost in the background.....since you have gone for maximum realism here....it would be better if the tracks go further more into the background and off the page.....
and I love the sand effect....you gotta show us how you did that!
Hi Lucio,
Those look great. This is a perfect example of why we don't really intend to turn TG2 into a full fledged general object renderer, but rather make it easier to integrate TG2 output with that from other renderers which are better at general object rendering.
Regards,
Jo
Jo,
I for one like the idea of having object rendering capabilities in TG2 and it seems to do okay (for 16 textures) now...I hope there are still plans to have the unlimited textures on an object.
This work by Lucio is cool, but I can assure you I don't have his resources (time and software) to do stuff like this and yet would think TG2 could do quite a bit if the object rendering was better. Let's face it - there isn't much desire in the business world with just scenery and no objects. This would tend to make TG2 rather useless, in my opinion.
I'm sorry to sound so terse. I just can't imagine learning how to use something that has no goal other than to make a picture. Rather inartistic, on one hand. On the other hand, I have only a couple of more decades to go and I'm not sure I want to spend time doing something that someone sees for one second and says, "Cool." Sort of sad. Sorry if it depresses anyone.
QuoteHere's an alternative version with different color range and shadows a bit improved.
I like the other one better. The lighting in it looks more like the photographs actually taken by the rovers. I think it's important to make sure the scene, and most especially the atmosphere, isn't too bright because Mars receives less sunlight than the Earth.
Quote from: green_meklar on November 27, 2007, 11:17:02 AM
QuoteHere's an alternative version with different color range and shadows a bit improved.
I like the other one better. The lighting in it looks more like the photographs actually taken by the rovers. I think it's important to make sure the scene, and most especially the atmosphere, isn't too bright because Mars receives less sunlight than the Earth.
Yes I agree with this. I prefer the first version as well.
Quote from: calico on November 27, 2007, 08:39:25 AM
Jo,
I for one like the idea of having object rendering capabilities in TG2 and it seems to do okay (for 16 textures) now...I hope there are still plans to have the unlimited textures on an object.
This work by Lucio is cool, but I can assure you I don't have his resources (time and software) to do stuff like this and yet would think TG2 could do quite a bit if the object rendering was better. Let's face it - there isn't much desire in the business world with just scenery and no objects. This would tend to make TG2 rather useless, in my opinion.
I'm sorry to sound so terse. I just can't imagine learning how to use something that has no goal other than to make a picture. Rather inartistic, on one hand. On the other hand, I have only a couple of more decades to go and I'm not sure I want to spend time doing something that someone sees for one second and says, "Cool." Sort of sad. Sorry if it depresses anyone.
No, I don't agree. You should see TG2 as a tool, rather than a stand-alone modeler, texturer (eventually perhaps) and renderer. I think TG2 is meant to make enviroments suitable for integration in other production-pipelines or meant for artistic goals ("to make a picture" yes :) )
I certainly think there's a great desire for scenery-generators as TG2. The movie "Stealth" for example or the whole Pirates of the Caribean trilogy (which was actually created with VUE, but we're talking about scenery generation in general). As far as I know Mojoworld has also been used in some epic movies like Day After Tomorrow, but I can be mistaken.
In conclusion I think you don't have the right picture regarding the usefulness of TG2 in "the business world".
Matt worked at Digital Domain and I think he'd never began developing TG if there wasn't any interest/future for it.
Regards, Martin
TangledUniverse - I'm not sure, really. I could see SDKs using TG2 in movies, etc. This means the code behind what we're using; not the product itself. But as far as what I'm learning (most of it is here), I'd say without the ability to utilize some matter of believable object control, TG2 by itself cannot produce much more than some game backgrounds...as far as business is concerned. I have the animation version, but I'm not sure what I'll do with it actually.
I'd be glad for someone to prove me wrong. Not interested in tit-for-tat debates, though.
All I've seen in movies has more to do with SDKs behind the scenes with products such as Vue.
Same accounts for Max and Maya. All big studio's write their own pieces of code for it to suit their demands. It isn't any different from what they'll do with TG2.
But ok, I rest my case now, because it's Lucio's topic and not ours ;D
...and nice work, too, I might add. Good job, Lucio. ;D
Oh no, please continue you all! ;D
I think this is a pretty interesting debate, and I have to agree mostly with Tangled-Universe. TG2 has a cool range of possible uses and destinations, and his integration into larger pipelines increases them even more, that's natural. His native object import utilities can be improved and maybe powered a bit with further development, but are already pretty good and well balanced with the other aspects of the software; we can't forget that the main goal is to produce a good environment-scenery generator, and I think this is a widely achieved target.
Thanks again for the comments :)
Lucio
@Tangled Universe
It is true that the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy was created created with VUE, however the digital terrain in Stealth was created with the same software they used on Flags of Our Fathers which is called EnGen which is used at Digital Domain and form what I understand is based on the same base code as TG2, but it was taken in a direction that Digital Domain needed to take it for their own use.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel :)
yea I pretty sure thats right, at least from what I read in an 3DWorld article.
Quote from: Will on November 27, 2007, 06:45:52 PM
yea I pretty sure thats right, at least from what I read in an 3DWorld article.
Then you and I read the same publication then (Sorry to go off topic)
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
The terrains and flora created in Vue were probably exported to a third party renderer and detailed digital matte paint composting was probably added to further enhance the illusion of a live action/3d mixed scene. If Vue looked that good by itself i would have abandoned Terragen. ;D
;D
Quote from: Sethren on November 27, 2007, 08:44:44 PM
The terrains and flora created in Vue were probably exported to a third party renderer and detailed digital matte paint composting was probably added to further enhance the illusion of a live action/3d mixed scene. If Vue looked that good by itself i would have abandoned Terragen. ;D
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on November 27, 2007, 06:41:22 PM
@Tangled Universe
It is true that the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy was created created with VUE, however the digital terrain in Stealth was created with the same software they used on Flags of Our Fathers which is called EnGen which is used at Digital Domain and form what I understand is based on the same base code as TG2, but it was taken in a direction that Digital Domain needed to take it for their own use.
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel :)
Yes that's correct. Matt was allowed to take some of the EnGen code with him to develop Terragen. I think one of Matt's purposes is to make the technology available and understandable for the majority of people. EnGen can be seen as the further developed and way less userfriendlier version of TG.
The main point is Calico's hypothesis that Terragen isn't interesting for the CG industry which I think, and already explained, isn't correct.
Quote from: Sethren on November 27, 2007, 08:44:44 PM
The terrains and flora created in Vue were probably exported to a third party renderer and detailed digital matte paint composting was probably added to further enhance the illusion of a live action/3d mixed scene. If Vue looked that good by itself i would have abandoned Terragen. ;D
Here's a brief description of the production pipeline of Pirates of the Caribbean using Vue.
As you can read all the scenes are rendered within Vue, except for a few scenes (due to flickering apparently).
It's possible/assumable that E-on assisted ILM in this production by providing additional code for example.
And yes, digital matte painting is also involved, but when isn't it??? In every production, using Max, Maya, whatever...matte painting and/or 2D-projections are involved. Just for the sake of time/costs. These techniques are mainly used in mid- or background parts of the scenes.
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/showcase/spotlights/?page=1
What I meant to say, again, is that TG as well as Vue are interesting enough for the industry. I think TG has to develop further (and will I hope) to take Vue's place in future productions.
One software package to serve all the industry's needs isn't just possible :)
Hey, don't misquote me. I said something about the SDK in TG2 being useful for movies.
As software progresses, there will be less need for 52 packages to do one thing. I see TG2 as a step in that direction and, while I hoped to see it be more robust in the areas of object handling, I love it and will continue to learn as much as I can from it. Disappointment isn't the equivalent of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Ya' dig? ;D
Great example: zBrush. This program does what many others in combination could only do years ago. This means the artist is becoming more important to what has been the dweeb's world in graphic arts. I welcome this with open arms. I hope you understand.
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on November 28, 2007, 03:47:37 PM
The main point is Calico's hypothesis that Terragen isn't interesting for the CG industry which I think, and already explained, isn't correct.
One software package to serve all the industry's needs isn't just possible :)
Interesting that they rendered it all in Vue but no doubt they used textures from photos due to Vues procedurals lacking that realism. I would also imagine that the techniques used in mid or background scenes might be because in Vue nothing really looks to good up close. I tried myself but procedurals look soft and vegitation looks odd with the way Vue handles it's leaf distribution. Matte painting really adds the icing to everything but it's hard work, i looked at some tutorials on these techniques and said no way.
I hear you Calico, SDK for Plug-Ins, lots of Plug-Ins. ;D
They also used Vue for the foreground. They used matte techniques for the mid and background.
They probably used phototextures as you mentioned. All very interesting indeed :)
Sorry I misquoted you Calico. SDK's is what you meant. And as I already stated, studios use SDK's/proprietary code for almost any software they use. So in the future the same will probably and hopefully happen with TG :)
QuoteOne software package to serve all the industry's needs isn't just possible
Yes, and it was also said (about a hundred years ago) that 'man would not fly for a thousand years' and that 'there is nothing new to be discovered in physics'. History has taught us that when people say things are impossible, they tend to be wrong. I don't think a universal renderer, or even a universal imaging program, is at all impossible.
YES!!! ;D My wish, too.
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on November 29, 2007, 10:47:16 AM
So in the future the same will probably and hopefully happen with TG :)
Quote from: green_meklar on November 29, 2007, 11:05:07 AM
QuoteOne software package to serve all the industry's needs isn't just possible
Yes, and it was also said (about a hundred years ago) that 'man would not fly for a thousand years' and that 'there is nothing new to be discovered in physics'. History has taught us that when people say things are impossible, they tend to be wrong. I don't think a universal renderer, or even a universal imaging program, is at all impossible.
Ghehe,
absolutely true, but as long as money is involved? ;D ;)
@TA - If someone builds it, the money will likely come. ;D
It is my view that such a program would be immense in both scope and undertaking and would be channeling to create a user-friendly interface, and would need to support dozens of file formats to be compatible with other software.
I have other views on this subject, Should we start a new thread on this subject as to keep this one on topic?
Regards to you.
Cyber-Angel
Shoot. ;D
Quote from: Cyber-Angel on November 29, 2007, 05:34:03 PM
I have other views on this subject, Should we start a new thread on this subject as to keep this one on topic?
Cyber-Angel
Sure but I say general discussion if we begin talking about hypothetical programs.
I'm no expert, but that has to be one of the most professional projects I've seen here. Very, very nice, guy.
Quote from: Will on November 29, 2007, 07:30:08 PM
Sure but I say general discussion if we begin talking about hypothetical programs.
I agree :)
Hey Lucio, don't know if you'll like it but how about rendering a nice carmodel in a TG-environment, like in commercials/ads?
Actually, I've been looking for a car model to do just that for quite a while - does anyone know where I could find a free, yet reasonably high-quality sports car model?
Quote from: Tangled-Universe on December 02, 2007, 04:08:26 PMI agree :)
Hey Lucio, don't know if you'll like it but how about rendering a nice carmodel in a TG-environment, like in commercials/ads?
Hi Martin,
I think it would be great. The biggest limit is just my actual hardware and TG2 not yet optimized and multithreaded ;D
Quote from: old_blaggard on December 02, 2007, 05:03:24 PM
Actually, I've been looking for a car model to do just that for quite a while - does anyone know where I could find a free, yet reasonably high-quality sports car model?
Don't know if it can be useful but you can try to check this
http://www.3dxtras.com/
Or you could try it here:www.sharecg.com/
Thanks :). I found a car on the 3dxtras site, and I'll take a look at yours later today. My only problem with finding objects is that I don't actually own any 3D apps other than Terragen - I can't do squat with .c4d, .max, .3ds, etc. files, and I hate imposing upon people to convert stuff every time I want an object ;).
There is converting freeware like crossroads or 3dwin file format converter.
Or maybe even poseray can do. ;)
People have generally had good luck with Poseray - unfortunately it doesn't work on Macs, last I checked. I've tried using Blender, but many of its object manipulation tools seem to be messed up. It's been a few months since I've embarked on a Google quest for such a program, though, so maybe one has come out ;).
Quote from: old_blaggard on December 03, 2007, 12:03:38 PM
Thanks :). I found a car on the 3dxtras site, and I'll take a look at yours later today. My only problem with finding objects is that I don't actually own any 3D apps other than Terragen - I can't do squat with .c4d, .max, .3ds, etc. files, and I hate imposing upon people to convert stuff every time I want an object ;).
yep, same here. Downloaded a few models and then found out I can't open them :( Other models I found had missing textures, so I gave up for now. But I am sure sooner or later someone will help out...
That's amazing! What a cool model. Great job on the scenery too.
:othis is really cool i love the atmosphere exactly what mars looks like also the rover looks so dam realistic!!
Really nice work and interesting to see different apps integrating. Something I will be doing in future.
TG2 is primarily a landscape generator. Sure, it could do more in other areas but you have to consider that different apps are needed because different work flows are necessary. TG2 is based on graph nodes. This is what you want for a procedural texture and surface engine. Other apps where you might be doing modeling or animation, need a completely different UI. For example I use Modo which has a Photoshop style shader tree but with lots of easy capability for masking, blending etc. Easy, fast control over each materials transparency, reflectivity, shadows, etc etc. Not much procedural power but ideal for arranging displacement, bump, diffuse maps etc. Very powerful in this respect. No node graph needed for this. It would actually complicate the work flow. In my opinion it's the work flow more than anything that makes these apps specialized. ZBrush for example doesn't use Open GL for it's realtime view. It harnesses the full power of your CPU to give you maximum realtime view power when you sculpt. An animation or modeling app is best based around Open GL for speed rather than detail. For example Modo, but this means Modo's new sculpting tools, although useful, are not a patch on ZBrush. Again, different solutions for different work flows. I don't use Photoshop or Gimp or such like app to post edit photo or render levels, colours etc, I use Lightzone which is far superior and specialized for these sorts of tweaks.