I'm thinking about buying another machine for working in TG, modeling, and rendering, and found this interesting site for basic knowledge about systems:https://www.cgdirector.com/best-computer-3d-modeling-rendering/ (https://www.cgdirector.com/best-computer-3d-modeling-rendering/)
As the amount of information is dazzling, I seek some advice to get a decently fast machine which doesn't make lots of noise, and doesn't need complicated cooling, or sucks electricity like a madman. Price is not really a problem (if it's less than say $3000 in total), but overkill is unnecessary.
I also want to take into account the fact that GPU rendering will maybe be possible, be it in TG or other engines. And a good GPU is handy to work smoother in the preview, I guess. But I'm not gaming!
And I need to consider any pitfalls (like the number of cores not all used, or something).
So I have two semi-final lists of stuff that I'm thinking of:
CPU: Ryzen 7 3700x boxed 289 euro
Motherboard: MSI X470 Gaming Plus Max 104 euro
GPU: MSI GeForce RTX 2080 Super Gaming X Trio 775 euro Is this overkill? Or good for GPU rendering?
case: Fractal Design Meshify C - Dark TG 82 euro
processor cooling: be quiet! Pure Rock 2 Black 38 euro
ventilators: be quiet! Pure Wings 2 PWM, 140mm necessary?
memory: 64GB (4 x 16GB) Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-3200 C16
Power Supply: Fractal Design ION+ 560W Platinum 100 euro
SSD: Kingston A2000 1TB E100 or Samsung 970 EVO Plus 2TB
CGDirector.com Parts List: https://www.cgdirector.com/pc-builder/?=Db1Pf0c0Epq (https://www.cgdirector.com/pc-builder/?=Db1Pf0c0Epq)
CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X 3.5GHz 16-Core Processor ($709.99)
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 ($89.90)
Motherboard: MSI X570 Tomahawk ATX AM4 ($268.50)
GPU: AMD Radeon RX 5700XT - Gigabyte Gaming OC ($470.98)
Memory: 64GB (4 x 16GB) Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-3200 C16 ($322.14)
Storage PCIe-SSD: Samsung 970 EVO 1TB M.2 Solid State Drive ($169.99)
Power Supply: Seasonic Focus GM-650, 650W 80+ Gold Power Supply ($99.99) or Fractal Design ION+ 560W Platinum (is 560W enough?)
Case: Corsair Graphite Series 780T ($189.31) or Fractal Design Meshify C - Dark TG (nicer)
Total: $2320.80
I now work on an i7 2600K with 16GB of memory, and a GT610 GPU, so I guess any of the above will be a huge improvement.
If any of you have any recommendations, I'd really appreciate a word!!
Two things I`d recommend after a quick view at your lists:
- Power Supply with more headroom / +700W
- NVidia Grafics Adapter
This will be Windows 10 then, I guess? Go for the Windows 10 Pro version.
If not, you won`t have the benefits of the latest graphics drivers, directx, opengl and cuda and all that kind of stuff.
1) You`ll reach the capacity of a smaller ps very soon, or you had to update the ps again once the system changes somehow.
Especially once you upgrade your Grafics card later.
2) Gaming or not is not really a concern anymore, since you are not going for a Pro NVidia Quadro Video card.
In the past I always found that AMD caught up to NVidia sometime and then fell back again.
And I was under the impression that the big software companies always favoured NVidia.
So this is my preferred route.
On the other hand I do not know if the Ryzen cpus take advantage of anything the AMD video card has to offer.
Get a card with as much as fast video ram as possible. That is what keeps it going in gpu rendering. At least 8GB.
The textures get loaded into vram to be used in the viewport. If that is filled, it slows down considerably.
This might not do much good (now) for TG but almost all the other apps in this field benefit from that.
All the realtime render engines for example. Or Unity or Unreal engines.
You`ll get to use those someday as well I am sure.
As usual: my premise is to get the best one can afford at the time buying. Anytime is the wrong to buy anyway.
Just now nvidia announced / released the next TRX generation...
CHeers, Klaus
Thanks for your fast and extensive recommendations, Klaus. Very helpful! It will (probably need to) be win 10. I have win 7 pro, but probably need an extra licence anyway. The machine will in principle be offline, but I still need to figure out how automatic updating of win 10 can be switched off. Not wanting to have renders broken or workflow suddenly interupted by win 10 hickups.
Yes, the best at any time will be expensive, and getting cheaper as other hardware is produced, which is even better. I wouldn't necessarily go for the best, but for 'the best for bucks'. Sometimes a 10% better performance will cost you 50% more, and 10% better performance is not really a breakpoint for me. That's why I had these 2 lists. The Ryzen 9 is faster than Ryzen 7, but is it worth the extra money?
Two more builds I found that have interesting parts:
High-Performance Rendering Build ($1700)
CPU: Intel i5-10600K
Graphics Card: RTX 2070 Super
Motherboard: Asus Prime Z490M-Plus
RAM: 32GB Dual-channel DDR4
Storage 1: 500GB Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD
Storage 2: 4TB Toshiba HDD
Power Supply: SeaSonic Focus GM-750
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock 4
Case: Fractal Design Meshify C
Operating System: Windows 10
Professional level build. Very high performance, although not twice as much as the higher value Balanced Price-to-Performance build.
If you've got 3D design work to do in a professional capacity and want to minimize the amount of time you're wasting with tools, then this is an excellent build for you.
This build sports a new Intel i5 CPU, with the some of the highest single-threaded performance of any CPU. This build will have exceptional performance for creating, modifying, and animating 3D models. It will have very good rendering performance, although not as high as the more expensive builds.
This build also has a very efficient and quiet CPU cooler to keep the powerful CPU running cool and reliable, a graphics card with enormous performance for CUDA rendering, one of the fastest SSDs around, and a very high quality power supply.
If you want to do any gaming, this PC will handle all games smoothly at up to 4K.
Professional Rendering Build ($2500)
CPU: Intel i9-10900K
Graphics Card: RTX 2080 Super
Motherboard: MSI Z490-A Pro
RAM: 32GB Quad-channel DDR4
Storage 1: 1TB Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD
Storage 2: 2x 4TB Toshiba HDDs
Power Supply: Corsair HX850
CPU Cooler: Fractal Design Celsius S24
Case: Corsair 750D
Operating System: Windows 10
The most performance you can get, before going off the deep end of the performance / price curve.
If you're not too concerned about budget, but balk at the price tag of the build below, this build is a good option.
The high-clock-speed, 10-core, 20-thread CPU has a great combination of single- and multi-threaded performance. Very balanced.
1TB of extremely fast SSD storage will make booting up, shutting down, accessing files, and opening programs snappy.
However, it seems Intel i9-10900 isn't the best.
You can`t go wrong with the best bang for buck approach, of course.
I think I just got lazy :) Later on I always find myself thinking: "I should have ...", hehe.
Regarding the Ryzen CPUs Tangled-Universe might be a good candidate to help decide.
Remember his "New Ryzen Machine Build" thread? He did quite extensive tests.
And for TG work there is always the - your - TG Benchmark result sheet to take a look at.
As I said, Win10 only gives you the benefit of all the bells and whistles the latest drivers for video cards need to be at their optimum.
That goes for all the new breeds of SSD and cpus as well.
Afaik it is not possible to turn off Win10 updates completely. You can delay updates for a certain amount of time.
But the best strategy would be to have a stable running system cloned and ready to be installed back once Win10 dupes you anyway.
It was always a good thing to do, but since Win10 I think it is essential.
CHeers, Klaus
Ulco i would wait just a little more to buy anything right now.
New Nvidia cards are announced and AMD cards will fallow. New AMD CPU's are on the horizon too.
Better to wait a little more then to buy now if you ask me.
Thanks again, guys. If win 10 is offline, it might not try to update anyway. I have to investigate.
I will look up Martin's thread, and maybe give him a hoot.
How long should the waiting be? I intend to buy something well before the end of the year. Tax, you know ;)
:)
New AMD CPU's will come out supposedly in October.
https://www.techradar.com/news/amd-ryzen-4000
https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/amd-radeon-rx-5950-xt-release-date-price-specs-3972186
Looks like AMD GPU's could be out in that time frame too.
But you know nothing is certain for now.
For PSU i wouldn't buy anything less then a good 750W one.
Still not out (next month i think) but for example this Nvidia card looks like (if those news are right) will be cheaper but faster then the "GeForce RTX 2080"
https://www.pcgamer.com/nvidia-rtx-3070-most-important-ampere-graphics-card/
If you use or will use a 4k monitor in the near future a GPU with at least and if possible more then 8 GB ram would be good.
There is a a procedure to disable windows 10 updates, windows defender, etc. It requires entering in a few command line stuff, I'll see if I can find the article. I did it on our multimedia compute stick so it would stop downloading and updating stuff while it's limited resources tried to play videos.
And yeah the new series of Nvidia GPUs will be debuting at the same price as last from what I heard so you could wait and get something beefier.
I honestly would go with AMD CPUs right now, but that's just me. Intel really doesn't have much overhead, and with the price gaps, isn't really even worth it.
Quote from: Kadri on September 08, 2020, 12:52:24 PMIf you use or will use a 4k monitor in the near future a GPU with at least and if possible more then 8 GB ram would be good.
I'd say over 8gb. I have 8gb and it's a strained on 4K ultrawide when it comes to GPU-end stuff. GPU is my bottleneck right now.
We have a Ryzen 7 2700X and a Ryzen 9 3950X at home.
The Ryzen 2700X is a great CPU for that price. The Ryzen 9 3950X was 4 times more expensive but 2 times faster in rendering.
Approximately of course. Now it is 3 times more expensive when i looked at Newegg.
If money is not a problem i would buy at least a Ryzen 9 3950X. And a faster Threadripper even :)
But as i said if you can wait there could be better deals in 2-3 months.
Quote from: WAS on September 08, 2020, 12:56:39 PMQuote from: Kadri on September 08, 2020, 12:52:24 PMIf you use or will use a 4k monitor in the near future a GPU with at least and if possible more then 8 GB ram would be good.
I'd say over 8gb. I have 8gb and it's a strained on 4K ultrawide when it comes to GPU-end stuff. GPU is my bottleneck right now.
Yeah. I would buy at least a 10 or more GB card too.
With these prices of AMD i wouldn't even think about Intel.
But from some of those news it looks like AMD will be slowly using higher pricing too in their CPU's.
Just says how good their CPU's are these days.
Quote from: Kadri on September 08, 2020, 01:06:43 PMApproximately of course. Now it is 3 times more expensive when i looked at Newegg.
I wonder if that's a import cost? It was nearly 600 dollars, and it's not in the low 400s. MSRP is 499.99 and when I was looking it was like 550+ at retailers, now it's like 438.99 on shopping lists from what I see.
Quote from: WAS on September 08, 2020, 01:24:47 PMQuote from: Kadri on September 08, 2020, 01:06:43 PMApproximately of course. Now it is 3 times more expensive when i looked at Newegg.
I wonder if that's a import cost? It was nearly 600 dollars, and it's not in the low 400s. MSRP is 499.99 and when I was looking it was like 550+ at retailers, now it's like 438.99 on shopping lists from what I see.
Could be.
Thanks very much guys! I'm getting excited about this. That new 3070 GPU looks pretty wonderful (if only at 8GB), but as said, I won't be doing any gaming. Maybe for stuff like Unreal it would be good (if I'm ever going to use that software). My goal is to work smoothly in TG, and modeling mostly. Get faster renders, and have the possibility to use GPU rendering, in time. Probably no 4k monitor, but then again, I might as well be prepared for that. This next purchase will last a good 7 years at least, I'd say.
I'll be a little patient..... thanks again!
As Was mentioned you can disable WIndows updates, you can do it without getting into the command line as seen here:
https://www.windowscentral.com/how-stop-updates-installing-automatically-windows-10
I haven't updated my Windows since I bought it 2 years ago, though it looks like I might have to to get Nvdia driver updates which is annoying (and I suspect unnecessary).
P.S - just out of interest, but probably not really within the scope of casual user, there is a version of Windows created on the web that strips out Windows Updates and all telemetry entirely - Windows 10 Ameliorated:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwkiU6GG-YU
https://ameliorated.info/index.html
Legally it seems the workaround is to follow the steps to create your own WIndows install image from instructions on the site rather than downloading the prebuilt image.
I would love to use this, but there seem to be a few operational caveats that might make it unworkable, which is a shame.
Cool! Thanks very much for chiming in! I might first try win 7, but I guess it won't be sufficient to run all new stuff.
But what about just pulling the cable out? Wouldn't that stop updates? Win wouldn't be able to read online if there's any update....
Drivers are going to be your main problem if using Win 7 - When I got my new machine I did try to get Win 7 running but found pretty quickly that some of the new hardware didn't have Win 7 drivers - I think I also had to go through some hoops just to get the OS to install (for example AMD Ryzen doesn't support Win 7 out of the box)- I gave up and reluctantly went to Win 10 in the end :)
Yes, the simplest solution is to pull the cable, but you're bound to run into a situation sometime where your machine will need to be online, maybe to update Adobe or similar, or even some software that needs a connection to a server just to run. Then when you plug it back in Windows will want to update. Better to turn it off, there is a lot of information on this on the Web, and there are some apps that can do it for you as well as turning off the telemetry.
Having said that I'm probably going to update soon, but I kept an eye on the disastrous Windows 10 May update that caused umpteen problems, and now it seems it might be safe to try it, but obviously I want to update my machine when it's safe to do so and at time I want (updating suddenly during a render is really not on!). So I'll back up my machine - update - then turn the updates off again.
The main reason for the update is to get Gaea working, as I suspect the latest Gaea only runs with recent versions of Windows...
I did do a lot of research before I set up my new Windows 10 box, so when it installed I knew what to go in and turn off, - it's a real shame that you have to do that - it's like you buy a house from Microsoft then you come home one day to find they've re-arrranged all your furniture and removed your favourite chair :)
Quote from: digitalguru on September 09, 2020, 10:15:24 AMP.S - just out of interest, but probably not really within the scope of casual user, there is a version of Windows created on the web that strips out Windows Updates and all telemetry entirely - Windows 10 Ameliorated:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwkiU6GG-YU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwkiU6GG-YU)
https://ameliorated.info/index.html (https://ameliorated.info/index.html)
Legally it seems the workaround is to follow the steps to create your own WIndows install image from instructions on the site rather than downloading the prebuilt image.
I would love to use this, but there seem to be a few operational caveats that might make it unworkable, which is a shame.
I tried this on my compute stick initially, actually, but I was getting warnigs/errors on every start up (and shutdown right before it turned off) that I couldn't really find fixes to other than "have you reformatted" so I figured I did something wrong (I did slipstream in some basic stuff to install media tools). That's when I just did a ISO straight from windows and just disabled windows update and defender.
Just saw this Ulco:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-announces-keynote-dates-for-zen-3-and-big-navi
Nvidia should be, but if those new AMD CPU's and GPU's will come in time for you i don't know.
Thanks so much! So, it's to be win 10. It's really annoying if the main software is causing havoc. And I will delay or turn off updates, and pull the plug when working or rendering, then plug in when it won't interfere. Or when needing to work in Gaea (the nice contest prize that I can't use now). I actually hate to be dependent on sources far away.
One nice thing about a new machine will also be that I can turn my 'old' 64-bit machine into the online machine, instead of the very old 32-bit that I type this on right now. And then being able to use Mixamo, e.g.
Thanks for the update, Kadri. Perhaps something like the RTX 2060 Super will be good enough if the RTX 3070 is too late this year. One article read: "If you want an 8GB card that can do ray tracing, for the lowest price possible, the RTX 2060 Super fills that niche ($250)."
Mostly i prefer at least the XX70 series from Nvidia then the XX60 ones. Depends on the card models of course.
You could make a comparison from what you will get with TAX versus getting a newer (maybe faster and cheaper CPU-GPU).
But that's not something i know anything about. Just talking out loud :)
The new RDNA2 cards will have DXR as well, and will likely run cheaper. RTX is cool but still gimmicky. Seems game devs have almost entirely dropped it in anticipation of cross-harware DXR. Haven't seen anything repping it like future DXR games.
I'll just wait a little while. Maybe such a card would be overkill, but if it's only a few hundred euro's more than a much 'worse' card, I might as well spend a little more (half is from the taxman's wallet). These cards do take an awfull lot of Watts, I hope they won't if they don't have to work very hard.
Quote from: Dune on September 11, 2020, 02:10:11 AMI'll just wait a little while. Maybe such a card would be overkill, but if it's only a few hundred euro's more than a much 'worse' card, I might as well spend a little more (half is from the taxman's wallet). These cards do take an awfull lot of Watts, I hope they won't if they don't have to work very hard.
They won't. All the hardware should scale to demand. I live in a RV with only 30amps of power available so I gotta monitor usage here. The PC idle draws 176 watts, when im playing a modern game (not best stress for a card) I get close to 350watts. This doesn't include the monitor though.
Good to know. Thanks. It's logical, but in doubt, query ;)
Also, just something new I learned. If you live rural, or where power lines are old, it may be prudent to get a Voltage Regulator Surge Protector. The reason being is, I found out here, the parks power systems are outdated, and with everyone stepping down their 50amp RVs to 30amp, was severely crippling the power system. The voltages dropped constantly on a large sine wave (I forget numbers now, I know voltage dropped below 100 off 120v plug). I now know why two computers PSUs popped, a mother board died, and a game console popped.
Every since getting a power regulator surge protector, I haven't had any issues, and the voltage leaving the strip is steady.
PS I think emergency power supply backups use voltage regulators to charge the battery and delivery power, not positive though. They'd probably say. I know Danny's does.
I have no worries about that here. Dutch power supply is very good, even rural.
Quote from: Dune on September 13, 2020, 02:07:40 AMI have no worries about that here. Dutch power supply is very good, even rural.
I don't think that's really relevant. There are surge protectors, surge protectors + noise filters (frequency), and surge protectors plus noise filtering and voltage (power) regulators. All different price tiers and usages.
In the Netherlands power is often served at 100/230v, not 120/240v. This actually bad for electronics.
not really related to the whole thread but this is what i use when i wanna tweak something in windows 10. never gave me any problem.
use at your own risk tho.
https://www.thewindowsclub.com/ultimate-windows-tweaker-4-windows-10 (https://www.thewindowsclub.com/ultimate-windows-tweaker-4-windows-10)
Thanks very much. Looks interesting.
Hey guys, next dilemma. Some of the GPU's I wanted are not available (soon) and I need to purchase now. If I had to choose between these 3, what would you do?
Gigabyte Geforce RTX 3060 Ti Gaming OC 8G €500
Powercolor RX 5700 XT Red Devil €530
PNY GeForce GTX 1660 super 6GB XLR8 Gaming OC Edition €300
Not for gaming, just fluently working in the viewport of TG is enough.
Please don't buy powercolor, I say this cause of horror stories with friends, and the only card I ever had fail, brand new, was a powercolor HD5950, which took the whole PC with it (mobo and PSU). This was the first PC I bought new too so it was highly depressing.
Thanks, WAS. Good to know, I had my doubt, never heard of the brand. Another dilemma is that the CPU won't work with win 7, so I seem to be obliged to use the dreaded win 10. But on win 10 some older versions of software I use won't be supported. So it's getting more complicated as I go... I may even decide to muddle along for the time being.
Quote from: Dune on December 09, 2020, 05:57:56 AMHey guys, next dilemma. Some of the GPU's I wanted are not available (soon) and I need to purchase now. If I had to choose between these 3, what would you do?
Gigabyte Geforce RTX 3060 Ti Gaming OC 8G €500
Powercolor RX 5700 XT Red Devil €530
PNY GeForce GTX 1660 super 6GB XLR8 Gaming OC Edition €300
I'd honestly stay loyal to GTX 1660. Or Gigabyte at least.I'm a little late to the show, but I do have a great interest in this topic.I do not wish to add to your confusion Ulco, but I just thought I'd share the offer that my supplier has just sent me (company name and logo have been, understandably, obscured). See the attachment:grabbbbb.jpgBasically, a 5950x-oriented system with SSD and an HDD. I understand SSD will be used for an OS install.P.S.: Subject to change. Note that this offer did not take a 32GB RAM into consideration just yet. Forgot to request for a bigger RAM. Will do it in the next e-mail.
That looks really good, Andrzej. I hope you'll soon be working on that monster.
I'll postpone until next year, as I'm still very much in doubt. But in the meantime, I need some advice about GPU for my present machine. It's now got a GT 610 (specs below), and I continually get a black screen when working with just one app like Marvelous Designer. Sometimes the screen remains black and I have to cold reboot, at other times it regains control, but apps crash. Nerve-wrecking, to be honest.
GT 610 specs:
driver 391.35
cuda kernels 48
clock 810MHz
proc clock 1620MHz
memory speed 1200MHz
memory bandwidth 9.6 GB/s
graphical memory 9967MB
videomemory 2048MB DDR3
system video memory 0MB
shared system memory 7919MB
I guess it's the GPU, though I didn't think it was that bad, so I'd like to know if it would be better to upgrade... and to what card. I don't want a very expensive one, but it has to be able to cope with these 3D apps. Any advice is very welcome!
hi Dune,
I`d put it this way: it IS bad - for nowadays applications ::)
Here is a link to a shop in CH as a collection of GPUs which would do the job:
https://www.brack.ch/it-multimedia/pc-komponenten/grafikkarten?filter%5BattributeGroupFacet_grafikfamilie%5D%5B%5D=Nvidia%20GeForce%20GTX&limit=48&sortProducts=Beste%20Ergebnisse&query=*
Just copy the link into the address line in a browser.
Any of these with the 16xxTi being the latest I think. You should be able to find some of them in the NL.
I have a 1070 with 8GB VRAM which works ok.
You have to check if your current powersupply is strong enough for these and if it has the right connectors.
Make sure a newer GPU plays well with your old gear...
To be honest, I think that buying "inbetweeners" before upgrading to a new modern system could be more costly in the end. m2cts.
Hope that helps.
CHeers, Klaus
ps: I always buy used stuff when I upgrade. The price difference is almost always worth the risk. Only a completely new system gets the benefit of all brand new parts.
Thanks a lot, Klaus. I know it's 'cheaper' to replace the whole machine (from 2011) by a new rig, but in the meantime I would still like to work on it, so I'll buy a proper card first. I found this site with my mobo and best stuff for it: https://www.userbenchmark.com/System/Asus-P8Z68-V-PRO-GEN3/2498 (https://www.userbenchmark.com/System/Asus-P8Z68-V-PRO-GEN3/2498)
Seems like the GTX 970 is best. I'll check further.
EDIT: found this; Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1650 D6 OC 4G - Grafische kaart. Reasonably priced.
Quote from: Dune on December 15, 2020, 05:50:56 AMThat looks really good, Andrzej. I hope you'll soon be working on that monster.
Thanks. I'm also very eager to get my hands on it. :)
Quote from: Dune on December 15, 2020, 05:50:56 AMI'll postpone until next year, as I'm still very much in doubt. But in the meantime, I need some advice about GPU for my present machine. It's now got a GT 610 (specs below), and I continually get a black screen when working with just one app like Marvelous Designer.
GT 610 is indeed an oldie, and (if I remember well) a 1GB GPU... Sadly, this is "two sizes, too small" for your needs.
EDIT: Scratch that, looks like it's a 2GB version.
GTX 1650 is a really decent solution but be prepared for a long wait. This was my first pick as well, until my supplier messaged me that there is an "utter havoc" going on in the GPU realm. The demand is high but the supply is scarce.
This is why I actually had to change my GPU to GT 1030 (a 4GB card). Nobody knows when (or if) 1650 arrives in Poland... But then again, I only use Terragen and Blender, so my needs are somewhat lower than yours. I don't know how the supply situation looks like in the Netherlands though, maybe I should have picked a Dutch supplier instead. :P
A lot of the (preferred) cards are out of stock indeed (unknown waiting time), but I remember this one being in stock. Good to know it was your first pick. Comes out well in reviews. In the meantime I lowered anti-aliasing from 16 to 2 in Marvelous Designer, and hope for it not to crash that easily.
And yes, stock may differ per country.
EDIT: no, not available....